Hemalurgy and Communication

[fyodor]

Does anyone have any thoughts about how Bleeder is able to project her thoughts into Wax? We haven't seen anything like this before, right? A quirk of her new form of Hemalurgy?

[Moogle]

We haven't seen anything like that before, though Allomancy might manage it with Soothing/Rioting. I'm guessing it's the new metal, though.

[potatopicker]

I don't think that Allomancy is the way it was done, because we are explicitly told that Bleeder could only access one Allomantic of Feurechemical ability at a time, via her single spike.  Seeing as how we only see her using one ability at a time, and the addition of an second spike played such an critical role in the story, I don't find it likely that emotional Allomancy was involved.  Maybe she'd gotten a hold of Lerasium, but if so, why didn't she use more abilities than one? That being said, perhaps the strongest evidence that something like that could be happening is that Bleeder only seems to be able to communicate with Wax while their in close proximity, possibly in visible range, both at the party, in the square, etc.  This is similar to the limitations that we've seen from emotional (and other forms of) Allomancy.

 

Lumping the ability into the metal spike is the easiest answer, but also seems like it could be a bit too convenient for me.

 

Note: edited to remove spoiler tags.  Here's to being new on the forums!

Edited October 7, 2015 by potatopicker

[Moogle]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Bleeder have two spikes at all times (one a shiny new metal which didn't allow Harmony to control her through it), and Wax's bullet was her third spike?

 

I should really do a re-read...

 

Edit: Re-read the scene in question. It's not clear. But my assumption is that the new metal was not capable of stealing Feruchemy/Allomancy, but was responsible for hiding her from Harmony. She would have had other spikes which granted Allomancy/Feruchemy. Harmony thinks she only has one spike and is insane as a result, but I'm thinking she was entirely too sane and had two spikes.

 

Here's what Marasi says:

 

Wax’s eyes flicked toward it. A small spike, long as a finger, made of some silvery metal with dark red spots, like rusted bits.

“That’s one of the spikes she was using, Waxillium,” Marasi said softly. “MeLaan wanted me to show it to you.”

Wax closed his eyes. They thought he wanted to see something like that?

“Waxillium,” Marasi said. “We can’t identify the metal. It’s nothing we’ve ever seen before. It certainly wasn’t one of the spikes she started with. That means she removed both, and stuck one like this in instead. Where did she get them? Who gave them to her?”
 

[Kurkistan]

MeLaan(?) was talking about the new metal being why Paalm was able, as a kandra, to steal/user Allomancy and Feruchemy, so it could just be that she had a lot of spikes all made from this same new metal, and switched those out.

[Argent]

It's true that it's not clear. We should clarify this during one of the signings. I am in favor of her having only spike at a time, but all of her spikes would be made of this... let's say trellium. So she prepared this trellium spike early on, removed both of hers (becoming invisible to Harmony), fell on the new one (remaining invisible because of the new metal - it's still not clear how this works), and then kept on acquiring new trellium spikes and swapping them in and out as she wished. So what grants control is the Hemalurgic charge, not the metal - the moment she got too much Hemalurgy in her (by way of bullet to the forehead), Harmony could take her again. And either because Wax's bulletspike was too low on charge or because Paalm's Coinshot trellium spike wasn't made of one of Harmony's metals, he couldn't take control instantaneously, which gave her enough time to trigger her death spiral mechanism. 

[Kurkistan]

It's true that it's not clear. We should clarify this during one of the signings. I am in favor of her having only spike at a time, but all of her spikes would be made of this... let's say trellium. So she prepared this trellium spike early on, removed both of hers (becoming invisible to Harmony), fell on the new one (remaining invisible because of the new metal - it's still not clear how this works), and then kept on acquiring new trellium spikes and swapping them in and out as she wished. So what grants control is the Hemalurgic charge, not the metal - the moment she got too much Hemalurgy in her (by way of bullet to the forehead), Harmony could take her again. And either because Wax's bulletspike was too low on charge or because Paalm's Coinshot trellium spike wasn't made of one of Harmony's metals, he couldn't take control instantaneously, which gave her enough time to trigger her death spiral mechanism. 

 

I don't think there's any need to resort to oddness to explain why Paalm wasn't instantly taken over at the end there. The kandra in HoA had time to talk and pull out their own spikes when Ruin tried to control them. All Paalm had to do was trigger her biological death-spiral.

[Argent]

A valid point.

[Moogle]

Okay, say it's trellium - how is it stealing Feruchemy/Allomancy? Powers are stolen by one type of metal, with the exception of atium (which makes sense as it is pure Ruin for Ruin's system). Does this new metal do that too? Seems like it should steal something else...

 

We know Kandra can use Allomancy/Feruchemy with the regular metals through WoB. (Though that WoB mentions the process is only known to Harmony, I think we can safely discount that part...)

 

I'm not sold on the interpretation that trellium steals Allomancy/Feruchemy.

[Argent]

I hypothesized somewhere that:

• Trell is Autonomy / Bavadin
• Shards can go play in other Shards' sandboxes, so to speak - inject their Investiture in another Shard's magic system for a limited effect without actually Investing themselves in the world (which would give them much greater power, but at a cost)
• Trell's Investiture, his effect on the Metallic Arts manifests itself as an additional God Metal (whereas if he had become Invested in Scadrial, he would spawn at least one new magic system, a new Art) - trellium. 
• Trellium would have to have to follow the rules of all three Metallic Arts, but it would also have to be in line with Trell's Investiture. This means an Allomantic effect, a Feruchemical effect, and a Hemalurgic* effect. 
• ... I just argued myself into a corner.

What I was going to say before I initiated protocol Eat Your Own Foot, was that it would make sense for Trell's - Autonomy's - metal to be somewhat in line with his Intent. So it could be the case that trellium is kind of a self-sufficient, an autonomous, metal - a substitute for any one of the regular metals. An Allomancer would be able to burn it for any one of the regular effects, a Feruchemist would be able to store anything (except for age and whatever lerasium grants), and a... Hemalurgist... would be able to steal any power. 

 

Except lerasium and atium don't seem to work like this. Lerasium's Allomantic power is not directly in line with his Intent, and neither is atium's... well, either power. So I don't know if I can argue that trellium - bavadium? - should.

 

Trivia: I typed "Hemalyrgic" and Google Chrome suggested to correct it to "Hemalurgic." Good for you, Google, you are learning!

[Lazarus52980]

Doesn't it seem sort of oxymoronic that someone whose intent is "autonomy" would be controlling other people and forcing them to do things against their will?

[IAmTheBeard]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Bleeder have two spikes at all times (one a shiny new metal which didn't allow Harmony to control her through it), and Wax's bullet was her third spike?

 

I should really do a re-read...

 

Edit: Re-read the scene in question. It's not clear. But my assumption is that the new metal was not capable of stealing Feruchemy/Allomancy, but was responsible for hiding her from Harmony. She would have had other spikes which granted Allomancy/Feruchemy. Harmony thinks she only has one spike and is insane as a result, but I'm thinking she was entirely too sane and had two spikes.

 

Here's what Marasi says:

 

Wax’s eyes flicked toward it. A small spike, long as a finger, made of some silvery metal with dark red spots, like rusted bits.

“That’s one of the spikes she was using, Waxillium,” Marasi said softly. “MeLaan wanted me to show it to you.”

Wax closed his eyes. They thought he wanted to see something like that?

“Waxillium,” Marasi said. “We can’t identify the metal. It’s nothing we’ve ever seen before. It certainly wasn’t one of the spikes she started with. That means she removed both, and stuck one like this in instead. Where did she get them? Who gave them to her?”

 

It might be easier to interpret Marasi's reference to the 'trellium' spike as "one of the spikes [bleeder] was using" as saying that it is one of the several spikes that she prepared. They knew where she switched bodies, so they could have gone back for the Steelrunning spike. Plus, they knew where Bleeder was spending most of her time, so they might have found the rest of her stash.

 

Just saying that "one of her spikes" doesn't necessarily imply she had them in together.

[Moogle]

Doesn't it seem sort of oxymoronic that someone whose intent is "autonomy" would be controlling other people and forcing them to do things against their will?

 

Who says anything Bleeder did was against her will? Sazed was controlling her and forcing her to do things she didn't want to do to Wax.

[natc]

@Argent

Atium manipulates how close you are to being dead feruchemically, while allomantically it just turns you into a high-efficiency killing machine, because 2 seconds isn't really good for much else beyond spontaneous reaction. Seems to fit.

Edited October 7, 2015 by natc

[Moogle]

It might be easier to interpret Marasi's reference to the 'trellium' spike as "one of the spikes [bleeder] was using" as saying that it is one of the several spikes that she prepared. They knew where she switched bodies, so they could have gone back for the Steelrunning spike. Plus, they knew where Bleeder was spending most of her time, so they might have found the rest of her stash.

 

Just saying that "one of her spikes" doesn't necessarily imply she had them in together.

 

Sure, but if she didn't have it in, then that doesn't explain how Harmony was having a hard time finding her. So I'm really hesitant to believe she just had a "normal" spike in at all times, and that one was just being used as a spare.

[IAmTheBeard]

Edit: Don't know why it double-posted like that...

 

They go to a lot of trouble to remind us that she only has one spike. I know that it's necessary to set up Wax's solution, and it could just be a case of the characters being wrong. But I have a hard time simply wiping that away because of an awkward wording, especially when we are also told several times that Bleeder has a whole array of spikes to choose from. In fact, it's actually odd that we only really ever see her use two different powers... 

Edited October 7, 2015 by IAmTheBeard

[Kurkistan]

Silly question that I would know the answer too if I hadn't blazed through the book: Did we ever actually see her using both her mind-speaking powers and another power at the same time? That power might have a spike of its own.

[Moogle]

Silly question that I would know the answer too if I hadn't blazed through the book: Did we ever actually see her using both her mind-speaking powers and another power at the same time? That power might have a spike of its own.

 

Bleeder moves with Feruchemical speed when "assassinating" the Governor, and taunts Wax in his head while he approaches. We don't see her speed off until after she stops talking in his head and swaps to a normal voice, but Wax has a visual on her almost instantly after she swaps to speaking normally - there'd be no time to do the spike swap, if she was taking one out, becoming a mistwraith again, and then digesting the new spike.

 

Edit: Scene:

 

I do my homework. It’s a kandra thing, which I assume MeLaan explained. Whatever you claim, you’re a good investigator. Maybe an excellent one. Even if you are, by definition, a dog chasing its own tail.

Wax walked right up to the base of the building, the mist thinning between him and Bleeder, who skulked just inside the window about ten feet up. Her face, though enveloped by the shadows, seemed wrong to Wax. Shaped oddly.

“Have you asked him?” Bleeder whispered from above, barely audible in the night. She had a rasping, dry voice, like the one in his head.

... [More conversation] ...

The mists churned. Wax stumbled back, swinging his gun toward something that had passed in a blur, leaving a corridor of swirling mist.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Moogle

[Kurkistan]

Thanks for the scene.

 

Two thoughts:

1. If you're right and Bleeder had two spikes in all of this time, then she didn't necessarily have to mistwraith-ify in order to swap out from head-whispering to steelrunning. It's important for us to figure out if the head-whispering is just a novel use of Allomancy or somehow unique to the new godmetal.

2. I think you might be overestimating the difficulty of swapping out spikes. For all we know, it could be something so simple as Bleeder leaning down against the new spike (propped against the wall or the like) while using her arms to stop being impaled; then yank out the old spike, fall down onto the new one, lean back again. Tada. At the very least we know already that it's not an hours-long process or anything, as she had time to swap both spikes and bodies during the final chase.

 

Those are just possibilities, though. I fear that the question of how many spikes Bleeder had is going to need some WoB to clear up.

[Moogle]

1. I agree.

2. I agree it's fairly quick, but my point was that Wax has a visual on her at all times. If she has to lean over and take in a new spike (assuming she only ever has a single one), Wax would have seen her move.

 

WoR spoilers:

We know that the Flaw involves making a "hole" that Ruin can pass through... similarly, Odium has a spren capable of the same thing. Would a spike made of a different god metal open you up to that Shard, or to Ruin? If the former, then there's less of a problem with the two-spike theory.

[Kurkistan]

2. I agree it's fairly quick, but my point was that Wax has a visual on her at all times. If she has to lean over and take in a new spike (assuming she only ever has a single one), Wax would have seen her move.

 

WoR spoilers:

We know that the Flaw involves making a "hole" that Ruin can pass through... similarly, Odium has a spren capable of the same thing. Would a spike made of a different god metal open you up to that Shard, or to Ruin? If the former, then there's less of a problem with the two-spike theory.

 

 

2. There's a small gap. Your own quote has the last mind-speech followed by Wax walking up and seeing her clearly in the window. All we saw before was "Wax saw something shift just inside the window, ambient light barely sufficient to let him discern it." A charitable reading of the scene could have a not-insignificant gap between "tail." and Wax seeing her.

 

WoR spoilers:

Well the Flaw already opens you up to emotional Allomancy, which is all Preservation all the time. It's never been a Ruin-only thing. I don't see why a spike made from another shard's godmetal shouldn't also make you universally vulnerable.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Kurkistan

[Moogle]

Fair points, both. I'll think about it.

 

Edit: She keeps talking mentally after Wax sees her move in the window. I'm not sold on her changing her spike at that point.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Moogle

[Youngy]

Could it have been the other Shard talking to him rather than her? Relaying words?

[Blaze1616]

I'm more of the opinion that she had two spikes the whole time. One for Allomancy/Feruchemy, and one to keep her hidden from Harmony. That fits with Autonomy, assuming that's who Trell is. This way she'd keep her sanity, can switch allomantic/feruchemic spikes without necessarily having to go Mistwraith, and also explains how Wax's bullet worked for getting Harmony to take over. 

[Govir]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Bleeder have two spikes at all times (one a shiny new metal which didn't allow Harmony to control her through it), and Wax's bullet was her third spike?

 

I should really do a re-read...

 

Edit: Re-read the scene in question. It's not clear. But my assumption is that the new metal was not capable of stealing Feruchemy/Allomancy, but was responsible for hiding her from Harmony. She would have had other spikes which granted Allomancy/Feruchemy. Harmony thinks she only has one spike and is insane as a result, but I'm thinking she was entirely too sane and had two spikes.

 

Here's what Marasi says:

 

Wax’s eyes flicked toward it. A small spike, long as a finger, made of some silvery metal with dark red spots, like rusted bits.

“That’s one of the spikes she was using, Waxillium,” Marasi said softly. “MeLaan wanted me to show it to you.”

Wax closed his eyes. They thought he wanted to see something like that?

“Waxillium,” Marasi said. “We can’t identify the metal. It’s nothing we’ve ever seen before. It certainly wasn’t one of the spikes she started with. That means she removed both, and stuck one like this in instead. Where did she get them? Who gave them to her?”

 

 

So my first thought was that Bleeder had two spikes at all times (because I thought that the Era 1 books said Kandra needed 2 spikes for thought, i.e. a Blessing). So that would mean this "Trellium" spike and a spike that gave her powers. However, I think I'm wrong about the 2 spike thing, as multiple times in SoS it's explained (by Kandra) that the first spike gives thought.

 

Based on the quote from the book you provided, I now think *all* of Bleeder's spikes were of this "Trellium" (or at the very least she had multiple). Here is the last part of the quote, with my emphasis as to why.

 

“Waxillium,” Marasi said. “We can’t identify the metal. It’s nothing we’ve ever seen before. It certainly wasn’t one of the spikes she started with. That means she removed both, and stuck one like this in instead. Where did she get them? Who gave them to her?”

 

Each of the underlined sections implies there is more than one "Trellium" spike (and that the characters know that).

 

So my conclusion is that the metal of the spike itself was granting Bleeder the detection protection from Harmony, and it has stolen a power. I also believe that "Trellium" is definitely a God metal up there with Atium and Lerasium. It is unknown as to what all this new metal can steal. I believe we've only seen Feruchemical Speed and Allomantic Steelpushes.

 

 

P.S. Hello. I'm new here. This is my first post.