kroen Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 Say you're a Twinborn, with your Allomatic metal being pewter and your Feruchemical one is steel. Could you not then burn pewter and store that extra speed it gives you in your steelmind? That way, you can basically store speed without actually being slowed down. The same process can apply for a petwer/gold twinborn but with health instead of speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 It's possible to do this with Allomantic pewter/Feruchemical gold by WoB. I don't know if Allomantic pewter gives you extra speed, though, or just extra strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 It's possible to do this with Allomantic pewter/Feruchemical gold by WoB. I don't know if Allomantic pewter gives you extra speed, though, or just extra strength. Pretty sure it increases speed too, with pewter dragging to cross huge distances and such admittedly that might just be due to a longer sride from increased strength but I'm pretty sure thugs were mentioned as being fast too (Vin in particular) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 Pretty sure it increases speed too, with pewter dragging to cross huge distances and such admittedly that might just be due to a longer sride from increased strength but I'm pretty sure thugs were mentioned as being fast too (Vin in particular) I would expect increased muscle strength to allow you to move faster. I don't see anything "speedy" about what Allomantic pewter does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kroen Posted October 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 Well, wouldn't you be able to store some speed but still move about normally thanks to that increased muscle strength? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fyodor Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 It's possible to do this with Allomantic pewter/Feruchemical gold by WoB. I don't know if Allomantic pewter gives you extra speed, though, or just extra strength. Can you point me to a cite for this? Just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fyodor Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 I would expect increased muscle strength to allow you to move faster. I don't see anything "speedy" about what Allomantic pewter does. Allomantic Pewter increases speed. It's in the AA and appears a bunch of times in fight scenes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 Can you point me to a cite for this? Just curious. Allomantic pewter strength can be stored in metalminds. There's a WoB specifically mentioning that Bloodmakers can store Allomantic pewter health, but I can't find it because Theoryland is giving me errors. If anyone else could provide it, I'd appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 So far, Allomantic pewter seems the most versitile for this. I want to call this more like "hack storing" because you're not really compounding. you're burning a metal to gain an attribute that you can then use to store normally in a metalmind, either at an increased storage rate, or at a "no cost to you" rate. Allomantic pewter would allow you to store strength, speed, and health depending on your metalmind/ferring ability. Tin might be able to help soft compound/hack store wakefulness, mental speed, or memories aside from the obvious of increased senses. Really though these seem like the only two that would allow you to use an enhancement from an allomantic effect to store feruchemically. I tried to find that WoB Moogle, but no search with bloodmaker, gold, pewter, or health had anything related to this concept. there may be other searches I didn't try though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 It might not be on Theoryland... the occasional WoB is just on the forums and near-impossible to find. :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 So far, Allomantic pewter seems the most versitile for this. I want to call this more like "hack storing" because you're not really compounding. you're burning a metal to gain an attribute that you can then use to store normally in a metalmind, either at an increased storage rate, or at a "no cost to you" rate. Allomantic pewter would allow you to store strength, speed, and health depending on your metalmind/ferring ability. Tin might be able to help soft compound/hack store wakefulness, mental speed, or memories aside from the obvious of increased senses. Really though these seem like the only two that would allow you to use an enhancement from an allomantic effect to store feruchemically. I tried to find that WoB Moogle, but no search with bloodmaker, gold, pewter, or health had anything related to this concept. there may be other searches I didn't try though. You're doing the reverse of compounding in fact, using strength from Preservation to fill metalminds, rather than burning full metalminds to get more of a feruchemical charge than you stored. The amount of power gained is still limited to the speed at which you can burn Allomantic metals, so it's definitely not Compounding in any sense of the word. It's more like... twin-filling your metalminds? *shrug* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 But that's exactly how compounding works. Burning derives allomantic power from Preservation. Burning a metalmind alters the power to provide a feruchemical trait instead of the normal power, but the source is still Preservation. After that, any smart man will store all of that power into a storage metalmind, because Rusts, you don't need that much power now of all times! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 But that's exactly how compounding works. Burning derives allomantic power from Preservation. Burning a metalmind alters the power to provide a feruchemical trait instead of the normal power, but the source is still Preservation. After that, any smart man will store all of that power into a storage metalmind, because Rusts, you don't need that much power now of all times! No, compounding is different, as it provides a multiplier through spiritually hacking the power of preservation into multiplying the feruchemical charge in your burned metalmind, if you're a twinborn with access to allomantic and feruchemical powers of the same metal, but that's not what was being discussed. If you have a twinborn that burns two different metals, as per the conversation above, like a Pewter-burning Steelrunner, whose metal is nonetheless versatile enough to help fill their metalminds, there is no compounding factor- they can't "multiply" power in any way. All they can do is store speed at the rate of a pewter-enhanced allomancer, instead of the rate of a normal person. Sure, they get speed a lot faster that way thanks to a boost from preservation, but there's no exponential return the way there is with actual compounding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 (edited) I'm not saying you're wrong, actually. But that explanation of yours could . . . use a little work in the vagueness department. If you had added what you just said in the original paragraph that would be perfect, though. Edited October 9, 2015 by natc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 No, compounding is different, as it provides a multiplier through spiritually hacking the power of preservation into multiplying the feruchemical charge in your burned metalmind, if you're a twinborn with access to allomantic and feruchemical powers of the same metal, but that's not what was being discussed. If you have a twinborn that burns two different metals, as per the conversation above, like a Pewter-burning Steelrunner, whose metal is nonetheless versatile enough to help fill their metalminds, there is no compounding factor- they can't "multiply" power in any way. All they can do is store speed at the rate of a pewter-enhanced allomancer, instead of the rate of a normal person. Sure, they get speed a lot faster that way thanks to a boost from preservation, but there's no exponential return the way there is with actual compounding. We have no idea how compounding works really Wax references getting an attribute back 'ten-fold' but that's unlikely to be accurate, from what Brandons said on the subject it's not multiplying the trait at all, it's funelling preservations power through the metal which then recognizes the feruchemical ability and turns into that rather than the regular allomantic ability. The returned power would then be determined by the metals burn rate and the amount of metal rather than the amount of stored trait inside it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgedancer Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 We have no idea how compounding works really Wax references getting an attribute back 'ten-fold' but that's unlikely to be accurate, from what Brandons said on the subject it's not multiplying the trait at all, it's funelling preservations power through the metal which then recognizes the feruchemical ability and turns into that rather than the regular allomantic ability. The returned power would then be determined by the metals burn rate and the amount of metal rather than the amount of stored trait inside it. Or maybe we just discovered the first step to Investure measuring and the amount of Investure a Feruchemist can store in any given metal is about a thenth from the amount of Investure an Allomancer gets from burning said metal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 We have no idea how compounding works really Wax references getting an attribute back 'ten-fold' but that's unlikely to be accurate, from what Brandons said on the subject it's not multiplying the trait at all, it's funelling preservations power through the metal which then recognizes the feruchemical ability and turns into that rather than the regular allomantic ability. The returned power would then be determined by the metals burn rate and the amount of metal rather than the amount of stored trait inside it. Voidus, we actually understand all that already. The feruchemical charge is multiplied by Preservation's power, but there's no violation of magical thermodynamics. And we have a rather good idea of how it works- the feruchemical charge overrides the usual focus of the allomantic metal to hack preservation's power into a feruchemical effect. We don't know exactly how much power is returned, but we do know it's more than enough to fill the same type of metalmind all over again with at least as much effect left over, so we do know it's at least multiplicative compared to tapping the power, if not exponential. I do wonder if the amount stored in the metalmind has any effect- TLR seemed to want his atiumminds full before burning them, and you would think he would have had time to experiment with compounding. It could well be that the strength of the compounding is based on how much you've stored in the burned metalmind, so that would mean that if your metal is at all valuable, it would be best to completely full your burnminds before using them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 I do wonder if the amount stored in the metalmind has any effect- TLR seemed to want his atiumminds full before burning them, and you would think he would have had time to experiment with compounding. How do you know this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 How do you know this? There's bits in the text about how TLR would have to spend increasing amounts of time filling burnminds for himself as he grew older and eventually he would reach the limits of age compounding as he would no longer be able to fill metalminds fast enough to burn them. Now, that could be referring to filling them even a little, but it seems like that would make it very hard to hit such a limit, as you'd more practically be limited by the amount of Atium you could source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 Voidus, we actually understand all that already. The feruchemical charge is multiplied by Preservation's power, but there's no violation of magical thermodynamics. And we have a rather good idea of how it works- the feruchemical charge overrides the usual focus of the allomantic metal to hack preservation's power into a feruchemical effect. We don't know exactly how much power is returned, but we do know it's more than enough to fill the same type of metalmind all over again with at least as much effect left over, so we do know it's at least multiplicative compared to tapping the power, if not exponential. I do wonder if the amount stored in the metalmind has any effect- TLR seemed to want his atiumminds full before burning them, and you would think he would have had time to experiment with compounding. It could well be that the strength of the compounding is based on how much you've stored in the burned metalmind, so that would mean that if your metal is at all valuable, it would be best to completely full your burnminds before using them. Where did you get that from? And having more than you started with suggests at the most additive effects not multiplicative. On TLR we have WoB that he stayed old unnecessarily I believe, he didn't need to do it. More importantly if it was multiplicative it wouldn't ever run out, he only needs to fill the first metalmind he intends to burn with his own stores. Let's take Wax's example of it being a 10x multiplier, TLR stores one metalmind with 10 years worth of being half age, then burns it getting 100 years, he now immediately burns that getting a thousand years, burning that gives 10,000 then 100,000 then a million all with just 5 metalminds getting burned. If on the other hand it's an additive process it goes from 10 years to say 20 then burning that one gives 30 then 40 then 50 then 60 and so on, each burn only gives ten additional years instead of multiplying the entire store by 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 (edited) There's bits in the text about how TLR would have to spend increasing amounts of time filling burnminds for himself as he grew older and eventually he would reach the limits of age compounding as he would no longer be able to fill metalminds fast enough to burn them. You are confused. The reason there was a time limit is because there is an upper limit to how much compounding can add to the charge. Or, if you see compounding as multiplying the charge, how much the metal can be filled. I am still unsure wich is it. Edited October 10, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted October 10, 2015 Report Share Posted October 10, 2015 Yeah, TLR's problem was that he was compounding a trait that naturally disappears ad infinitum, and has long since gone past the point where he even had enough naturally to be alive. He needs more and more tapped age to maintain his appearance, which means he is draining his charges faster each day and needs to burn more frequently. Eventually he'll have to burn nonstop, and after a while that won't be enough either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted October 10, 2015 Report Share Posted October 10, 2015 To be honest though I doubt TLR would have had any problems for a significant length of time, he would only have been tapping about 30x youth, Miles' health has got to be thousands if not millions of times faster than natural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgedancer Posted October 10, 2015 Report Share Posted October 10, 2015 Where did you get that from? And having more than you started with suggests at the most additive effects not multiplicative. On TLR we have WoB that he stayed old unnecessarily I believe, he didn't need to do it. More importantly if it was multiplicative it wouldn't ever run out, he only needs to fill the first metalmind he intends to burn with his own stores. Let's take Wax's example of it being a 10x multiplier, TLR stores one metalmind with 10 years worth of being half age, then burns it getting 100 years, he now immediately burns that getting a thousand years, burning that gives 10,000 then 100,000 then a million all with just 5 metalminds getting burned. If on the other hand it's an additive process it goes from 10 years to say 20 then burning that one gives 30 then 40 then 50 then 60 and so on, each burn only gives ten additional years instead of multiplying the entire store by 10. Well, there is a limit how much a metalmind can store. Meaning that if one holding 10 years gave him 100, he would need 10 metalminds to store all that youth and at some point that grows simply impractical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jondesu Posted October 10, 2015 Report Share Posted October 10, 2015 Miles' health has got to be thousands if not millions of times faster than natural. Except what he's storing isn't "healing". It's "health". I view that as the sort of "Platonic Ideal of Health". When they store health, they don't get sick more easily, they become less healthy, regardless of the illnesses they could potentially contract. When they tap it, they don't gain the ability to heal faster, they get themselves that much closer to the ideal of health. That would mean he only really needs to have 100% of the ideal of health stored at any given time to return to full health even from a beheading or explosion, so while that's a lot of health to store in gold normally (since you probably can't store it at a very high rate without killing yourself, and certainly without crippling yourself badly while you do), and probably impossible for a non-compounder, it's not the crazy high rate of storage/tapping it would otherwise imply. jW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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