Forms and Concepts

[Kurkistan]

It's been awhile since I threw a Forms thread at you guys, so I decided now's the time.

This one is actually fairly short, just a thought that came to me the other day.

Evidence:

We have only a few quotes on the nature of conceptual interaction between shardworlds.

Dead end:

Source:

LLWVYN
My question is in regards to the writing system. In Warbreaker, when Siri is teaching Susebron to read, she mentions the letter "shash," which we now know better as a Glyphair from WoK.

so onto the questions:

Are the two writing systems related, or is this a chance coincidence of names? If they are related, did they stem from the same source? (i.e., do the people of Nalthis and Roshar both descend from a more ancient group of people?) If I haven't gotten a RAFO yet, did the separation from these other people create the legends of being cast out of the Tranquiline Halls?

BRANDON SANDERSON
There are interesting connections around the cosmere between linguistics and some cultures. Though different groups of humans were created on different planets, the Shards all share a single point of origin. However, the Tranquiline Halls legends are not related to a Nalthis/Roshar connection.

So that one's a dead-end because "shash's" universality is the direct result of the Shards having a single point of origin.

More interesting, though...

Source:

ERIC LAKE
Here's a quote. "Why, the Astalsi were rather advanced—they mixed religion with science quite profoundly. They thought that different colors were indications of different kinds of fortune, and they were quite detailed in their descriptions of light and color. Why, it's from them that we get some of our best ideas as to what things might have looked like before the Ascension. They had a scale of colors, and use it to describe the sky of the deepest blue and various plants in their shades of green." Do the pre-Ascension religions correspond to religions from other Shardworlds, as this one seems somewhat like Nalthis?

BRANDON SANDERSON
I mention this in one of the Well of Ascension annotations.

After I came up with the idea and had Sazed mention it, my desire to explore it more was one of the initial motivations for Warbreaker's setting.

The answer to your question is yes and no. There are shadows.

 

Theory:

Now we're in business. "Shadows"...

Sounds like a Form to me!!

So, in short, I would propose that the broad strokes of religious concepts (among other types of concepts, almost certainly) exist on a level that transcends individual shardworlds. So a man is pondering the beauty of colors on Scadrial and strikes on their possible spiritual significance: in so doing he establishes a Spiritual connection to some somewhat vaguely defined "Colorful Religion" Form.

So far as other concepts go, I would hazard that similar things could happen with aesthetics, inventions, philosophy, etc. Not so much that every culture is just a carbon-copy of the other, obviously, but enough for a certain degree of similarity/contiguity.

Now if only Roshar could pick up some Crossbow Forms from Sel...

Edited October 25, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Argent]

There is far too little evidence for me to support you in this madness... =\

[Meg]

So that one's a dead-end because "shash's" universality is the direct result of the Shards having a single point of origin.

More interesting, though...

Source:

 

Theory:

Now we're in business. "Shadows"...

Sounds like a Form to me!!

 

Such a short theory, Kurk.

 

I'm with you here (as far as I understand the forms/ideas/concepts-thing).

[Kurkistan]

/>/>/>There is far too little evidence for me to support you in this madness... =\

I'm honestly unsure as to whether you're kidding.

Yeah, it's just the one quote, but "shadows" really implies some non-intentional crossover of concepts, and Forms fits that bill to a tee.

And if I'm mad, Argent, then what does that make you who appears to agree with me on topics of great import...

/>/>/>Such a short theory, Kurk.

I'm with you here (as far as I understand the forms/ideas/concepts-thing).

I am capable of brevity. I just don't like it. Edited October 25, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Argent]

Heh. I did mean what I said - I like my theories like I like my women. Well-supported, full of facts, well written, plausible... But I also didn't want to sound too dismissive

 

The point is, it is possible that your overarching idea of the Platonic forms applies to the cosmere. I can even see where this theory is coming from - "shadows" is an odd word choice up there. But it's not enough for me.

 

On the topic of madness, I am quite happy to inform you that I don't suffer from it. But only because I rather enjoy it

[Kurkistan]

Ah, *rubs hands together* so thou wantith a great debate over the general applicability of a Formic theory to the Cosmere...

So, to sum, do you think this theory stands and falls with Forms as a whole, or that it is weak even if you subscribe to my Formic newsletter?

[Argent]

I take issue with the lack of evidence for this particular theory. I make no statement about the more general theory of the forms - partly because I am not very familiar with your thoughts on the matter. But with equal importance, because on a certain level the forms have to be a valid explanation of the cosmere. The three realms permeate the entire cosmere. The Shards all come from the same world. Of course there will be some overlap - how can there not be? But to decide whether it's as much as you (probably) claim in your core theory, I'll need to familiarize myself with it... sometime.

[Kurkistan]

Fair enough.

Myself, I think the lack of evidence is okay because it slots rather neatly into my preexisting theory. I wouldn't be comfortable spinning off an entirely independent theory based on a single choice of word by Brandon, but as is I think it fits.

I shall await your eventual reading of my theory. The "Simplified" one that I link to in the OP is rather short, if that makes you feel better (the one on Forgery, though...). Just to give you a brief preview: I don't talk much about interactions between Shards or shardworlds, mostly focussing on regional and world-level stuff.

[Satsuoni]

I still prefer "emergent eigenstates" over "Forms". And what do ants have to do with your theory, Kurk ?

As for your theory, I can neither confirm nor deny it right now

[Kurkistan]

Ants have everything to do with it!

Honestly, given what little we have from Brandon, "Ideals" is likely a better term. Too late now, though.

[Gloom]

Would these forms be cognitive? What I mean is, are we talking about cognitive overlap between worlds? I create a crossbow on one world, and because the concept already exists in the cognitive realm, it makes it easier for the concept to be duplicated in another realm? If so, I believe that the smaller the concept, the less likely it would overlap. A religion is shared by many. Millions of cognitive entities could share a belief, and that may make it more likely to overlap into another Realm in the Cognitive. A trade secret, a unique design for a weapon, or how a specific alloy is created may be held closely and be known by a very small number of people. In this case, these things would be less likely to overlap into other Realms because they don't have a strong enough presence in the Cognitive.

[WeiryWriter]

Would these forms be cognitive? What I mean is, are we talking about cognitive overlap between worlds? I create a crossbow on one world, and because the concept already exists in the cognitive realm, it makes it easier for the concept to be duplicated in another realm? If so, I believe that the smaller the concept, the less likely it would overlap. A religion is shared by many. Millions of cognitive entities could share a belief, and that may make it more likely to overlap into another Realm in the Cognitive. A trade secret, a unique design for a weapon, or how a specific alloy is created may be held closely and be known by a very small number of people. In this case, these things would be less likely to overlap into other Realms because they don't have a strong enough presence in the Cognitive.

 

If I remember correctly from my read of the original theory ages ago, Kurkistan proposes that Forms are Spiritual in nature.

[Kurkistan]

@Gloom

 

I think you have it right so far as scale goes. I doubt that specific models or compositions would ever leak over, in fact. Forms are all about abstraction from the specific and personal to the abstract and general.

 

@Weiry

 

Yes, I do locate Forms fundamentally in the Spiritual. However, I also have those Spiritual constructs be formed by Cognitively active beings. This leap was then mitigated by the positing of somewhat less distinct Cognitive versions of Forms that serve as middle grounds and intermediaries between people and Spiritual Forms. I would guess that only the more "pure," powerful Spiritual Forms would be able to cross worlds, though.

[Gloom]

Sort of a generic cognitive blueprint? A blueprint that requires a significant amount of cognitive and spiritual pressure to be transferred spiritually between realms? Using Shardplate as an example. Shardplate was for millennium the hallmark of the KR, a mystical group of warriors that were held in a sort of pseudo religious awe. They were revered as the warriors of their gods. Because the Knights Radiant were associated with full plate armor, over time, that association would form a rough template of plate armor in the cognitive realm due to the sheer number of people who shared this concept. The strength of the belief being spiritual in nature may reinforce this belief and create a global cosmere concept that could be intuitively grasped by other cognitive beings regardless of where they were...or perhaps it just spilled over into adjacent realms?

 

This closer to what you were shooting for?

[Kurkistan]

Yes... -ish.

 

I'm unsure of this talk of "pressure" that's been floated around as of late, but I see your meaning.

 

It really has nothing to do with the degree to which a belief is "spiritual", though. The fact that gold could plausibly have been adulterated with lead is based on a Form as well.

 

So the KR wearing plate (of a kind) might have some part to play in the formation of a "plate armor" Form, but the nature of the KR as revered holy warriors would have little to do with the process, beyond perhaps that fact leading to more people knowing about them, and then proceeding to form opinions about plate armor.

Edited October 27, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Gloom]

Okay, I'm sold on the forms theory. Yes, the spiritual aspect would have mostly been a matter of cross association. More people would have been exposed to the idea and encouraged to believe in it based on its religious significance. The same could be said of doctoring gold with lead based on its monetary significance, or the common thread of how much gold or gems are valued as currency across a wide array of worlds.