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Yata

Theory: Devotion and Dominion are actually a "Spintered Shard"

68 posts in this topic

I never noticed this one. Good theory and good find @Jondesu.

There's also this:

Quote

So on Sel, we have AonDor. AonDor is based on the fact that the Dor, which is an amalgamation of Dominion and Devotion, has been pressed together and stuffed into the Cognitive Realm by Odium who didn’t want it to gain sentience, as Investiture will do if it is left alone. It will either seek someone to be its Vessel or it will gain sentience. He pressed it in there; he pressed it together, which creates the violent reaction, because those two Intents are opposed. And that is the foundation of the magic

So that sounds distinctly to me like the 'amalgamation' is that of the remaining (non-seon/skaze) investiture is now one set of investiture, one shard, only it can't be considered a full Shard because of the extent of the Splintering. But I'm curious about this. A Shard can splinter of part of their essence and still hold the Shard. So why should the part missing from the Dor (seons and skaze) prevent the remaining now-combined investiture from being picked up? Is it just it's location in the Cognitive Realm? Or did Odium splinter it in a way that means it can't be picked up no matter the location (without recombining the splinters, which we don't know is possible).

But I agree, I think @Yata's theory has moved into the likely category.

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Posted (edited)

I wrote this theory a long time ago. Our informations were more limited than now.

I don't think the Seon or Skaze prevent the Shard to reform.

We know a Shard could create Splinters of his Power and the Splinters will be indipendant to a certain degree but still part of the Shard.

We saw also a Shard didn't Need of 100% of his Power to be a Shard. Ruin for example had a piece of himself ripped away from him but he was still a Shard.

This was a Little permise. When a Shard is splintered (maybe we need different words for the two kind of splintering...I don't know) the Connection between his different bit of Investiture is broken.

So in theory, to reform a Shard you will Need only to slowly craft again a Connection between his pieces.

I think you Need to do this only for a fraction of the Splintered Power, enough Power to Ascend also if you are really weak for a Shard's standard.

Then with your godly Power you could "reclute"/reConnect other Splintered Investiture (After all Ruin was confident to recover the stolen Power).

The cognitive location probably It's troublesome too for this. In the Spiritual maybe the bit of Investiture could start to reLink alone. But in the Cognitive pressed One aganist the other in the fiercy storm the Dor is...The thing are weird. Also a bit of anomaly inside of It could start a resonance

Edited by Yata
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To add my 2 cents :)

I think that splintering a Shard is removing it's spiritual part from the Spiritual Realm.

My theory is that is the spiritual component of a Shard that allow it to be linked to all it's pieces, even when they are separated in the other realms (Breath from Endowment, Mists from Preservations...). In the same context, if there is no space or time in the Spiritual Realm, then the concept of splintering makes no sense... Then, I propose that what Odium did was just move the spiritual component of the shards to the Cognitive Realm, where they can be splintered.

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29 minutes ago, dgenio8 said:

To add my 2 cents :)

I think that splintering a Shard is removing it's spiritual part from the Spiritual Realm.

My theory is that is the spiritual component of a Shard that allow it to be linked to all it's pieces, even when they are separated in the other realms (Breath from Endowment, Mists from Preservations...). In the same context, if there is no space or time in the Spiritual Realm, then the concept of splintering makes no sense... Then, I propose that what Odium did was just move the spiritual component of the shards to the Cognitive Realm, where they can be splintered.

Yes, splintering (in the Odium's context) working removing the Connection between the bit of Investiture. So the single Cell of the being (Shard) are no more part of the being.

Your idea about a specific part is troublesome with some istances. For example Ruin and his removed part

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So why didnt Honor go the way of Devotion and Dominion in being trapped in the CR? 

 

 

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50 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

So why didnt Honor go the way of Devotion and Dominion in being trapped in the CR? 

 

 

Because for Roshar's nature the Spren act as release valve for the surplus of Power and because the other Shard (Cultivation) could manage the situation.... The Seon/Skaze aren't enough to do the same for D&D's power.

We have a WoB about

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10 hours ago, Thanatos said:

Good theory.

My opinion on Skaze is that their like Voidspren in that their contaminated by Odium.

pretty sure theres a WoB saying the Seons and Skaze were not around until after the shattering and Skaze are more malevolent than Seons

Point One: We have WoB that Odium did not leave any of his power behind on Sel, so I believe that precludes corrupting the Skaze with his power.

One of the two WoBs you are looking for definitely exists: something along the lines of "When Odium visited there were no Seons(and Skaze)"

I do not recall any WoB that Skaze are more malevolent however. Sure they(and Fjordell) want control, but that's only natural since the Skaze are of Dominion.

Fair warning: I may have never seen WoB on this, so don't take my word as proof it doesn't exist.

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On 11/23/2015 at 0:24 PM, Yata said:

I'm writing this double post because something hit my mind while I ansewered in another topic.

It's about the WoB about (not exact words) "all magic system on Sel are actually manifestation of the same magic system".

And this make me think. All the Shardworld with more than a single shard had multiple magic system (example: Allomancy, Feruchemy and Hemalurgy from Ruin and Preservation on Scadrial) while Shardworld with a single Shard had only a magic System (Example: Awekening from Endowment on Nalthis).

Therefore if on Sel "there is only a Magic System" may be a proof about the "Dor as a Single Splintered Shard" (or Unity if you like the name more) ?

Unlikely, as if that were valid, then Hemalurgy and Allomancy should now be a single system, and they aren't.

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Posted (edited)

6 minutes ago, Yitzi2 said:

Unlikely, as if that were valid, then Hemalurgy and Allomancy should now be a single system, and they aren't.

Harmony is a recent development.... It's possible that over the millenia, Hemalurgy Will disappear (not Allomancy because It's already coded in the DNA end Will be passed to the offspring)...But in the end good point

Edited by Yata
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On the original topic, didn't I read or hear somewhere that Devotion and dominion were opposites, and that caused their splinters to act like two magnets with the same poles facing each other, forcing them apart and causing lots of tension and stress. This tension and stress is what caused the Dor to be so strong in trying to "break out" of the Cognitive Realm, because there were two opposites constantly in turmoil trapped together, and also caused it to be very dangerous for people to go the Cognitive Realm on Sel.

Then again, Ruin and Preservation are opposites, and they could be put together, so it is quite likely I'm wrong...

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On 10/18/2017 at 11:35 AM, Krypton Savant said:

On the original topic, didn't I read or hear somewhere that Devotion and dominion were opposites, and that caused their splinters to act like two magnets with the same poles facing each other, forcing them apart and causing lots of tension and stress. This tension and stress is what caused the Dor to be so strong in trying to "break out" of the Cognitive Realm, because there were two opposites constantly in turmoil trapped together, and also caused it to be very dangerous for people to go the Cognitive Realm on Sel.

Then again, Ruin and Preservation are opposites, and they could be put together, so it is quite likely I'm wrong...

I don't think I've seen anything confirming that, but there may have been some speculation. We do know (I believe) that the Dor is so dangerous in the Cognitive because Odium "stuffed" that power in there, which usually resides mostly in the Spiritual Realm.  He did that to keep someone from reassembling the Shards, though we don't know if it's still possible anyways, and just harder.

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@Jondesu I think @Krypton Savant refered to this

Quote

At this point, the bulk of the Investiture that made up the powers of Dominion and Devotion is trapped on the Cognitive Realm. Collectively, these powers—which have a polarized relationship—are called the Dor. Forced together as they are, trapped and bursting to escape, they power the various forms of magic on Sel, which are multitude.

(from AU's Selish essay)

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Opposed, but not necessarily opposites.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it would work the same way. The only magic that is location-dependent-- the ones who aren’t interested in this, just hum to yourself, okay? You don’t need to know any of this stuff to enjoy the books, okay? I’ve [written] them so that each series can be read independently, and enjoyed. There is behind the scenes stuff, and if you want to dig, it goes pretty deep. So on Sel, we have AonDor. AonDor is based on the fact that the Dor, which is an amalgamation of Dominion and Devotion, has been pressed together and stuffed into the Cognitive Realm by Odium who didn’t want it to gain sentience, as Investiture will do if it is left alone. It will either seek someone to be its Vessel or it will gain sentience. He pressed it in there; he pressed it together, which creates the violent reaction, because those two Intents are opposed. And that is the foundation of the magic.

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7 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Opposed, but not necessarily opposites.

Well this whole theory was build around the idea of a compatibility between Devotion and Dominion. As I said, I saw them pointed to the same goal with very different methods

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It should be noted that the Intents of the shards can be interpreted in different ways. For instance, Ati and Lerus had opposite views and would have been unable to hold both preservation and ruin, but Sazed understood and agreed with both. Dominion and Devotion could likely be fused with the correct viewpoint, think King that loves his subject while demanding loyalty (like Elend). But without a commonly connected Vessel, the shards are likely to have an extremely one-sided view and struggle against each other. And Odium's meddling was probably designed to make it difficult for a vessel to gain a connection.

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8 hours ago, Wandering Investor said:

It should be noted that the Intents of the shards can be interpreted in different ways. For instance, Ati and Lerus had opposite views and would have been unable to hold both preservation and ruin, but Sazed understood and agreed with both. Dominion and Devotion could likely be fused with the correct viewpoint, think King that loves his subject while demanding loyalty (like Elend). But without a commonly connected Vessel, the shards are likely to have an extremely one-sided view and struggle against each other. And Odium's meddling was probably designed to make it difficult for a vessel to gain a connection.

There’s a theory (can’t remember if there’s any proof) that Aona and Skai were  lovers. That relationship could have shaped their interpretation of Devotion and Dominion either to make them more compatible or less.

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6 hours ago, Jondesu said:

There’s a theory (can’t remember if there’s any proof) that Aona and Skai were  lovers. That relationship could have shaped their interpretation of Devotion and Dominion either to make them more compatible or less.

Yeah I rememeber that theory, it was baseless but there wasn't nothing in the books or wob that actually disprove it

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4 hours ago, Yata said:

Yeah I rememeber that theory, it was baseless but there wasn't nothing in the books or wob that actually disprove it

I guess I like it for flavor, and because it would make some of the things about Sel more intriguing. And it makes for a more tragic story.

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