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Theory: Devotion and Dominion are actually a "Spintered Shard"


Yata

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I like it, and I think there's a lot of truth to this, though I don't know how much the intents of the Shards matter once they're splintered (and we won't until Brandon decides to reveal it, if he does), but I imagine there's some significant aspects that don't require a mind behind the intent to manifest, just without direction as to when and how.

 

Now, where this becomes really interesting is if we learn if there is indeed a way to un-splinter a Shard and pick it up.  If someone could pick up the new DorShard (I'd say Unity is a great name for it), they would easily become the greatest threat to Odium beyond even Harmony, because while their power might be slightly less than Harmony's, they would be much more capable of putting it to use effectively.

 

jW

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I like it, and I think there's a lot of truth to this, though I don't know how much the intents of the Shards matter once they're splintered (and we won't until Brandon decides to reveal it, if he does), but I imagine there's some significant aspects that don't require a mind behind the intent to manifest, just without direction as to when and how.

Well we know that Splinters carry the Shard's Intent, when they gain sentiences we have sure proof (the Seons), but i could understand your doubt about the "mindless" Splinters, In my own opinion I think that also if not sentience like the seon, with the time large amount of investiture develop a "rudimentary instinct" based on the Shard's Intent (something like the difference of Human's Intellect and the insects's one).

 

 

Now, where this becomes really interesting is if we learn if there is indeed a way to un-splinter a Shard and pick it up.  If someone could pick up the new DorShard (I'd say Unity is a great name for it), they would easily become the greatest threat to Odium beyond even Harmony, because while their power might be slightly less than Harmony's, they would be much more capable of putting it to use effectively.

In a WoB brandon stated that is possible to un-Splinter a Shard, but how could this be done I don't really know. It could be possible gather manually all the splinters of course. But this will take millenia. Also the Dor isn't in a easy accessible form (the mists at least manifested in the physical realm).

Maybe it could be use an Aon who gather Investiture (the Rao i suppose) but i have not proof and the Dor seems quite "wild".

 

PS: If "Unity" will be a reality, it will probably more powerfull than Harmony, remember that Harmony heavy invested Scadrial and its lifeforms.

Edited by Yata
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Well we know that Splinters carry the Shard's Intent, when they gain sentiences we have sure proof (the Seons), but i could understand your doubt about the "mindless" Splinters, In my own opinion I think that also if not sentience like the seon, with the time large amount of investiture develop a "rudimentary instinct" based on the Shard's Intent (something like the difference of Human's Intellect and the insects's one).

 

 

In a WoB brandon stated that is possible to un-Splinter a Shard, but how could this be done I don't really know. It could be possible gather manually all the splinters of course. But this will take millenia. Also the Dor isn't in a easy accessible form (the mists at least manifested in the physical realm).

Maybe it could be use an Aon who gather Investiture (the Rao i suppose) but i have not proof and the Dor seems quite "wild".

 

PS: If "Unity" will be a reality, it will probably more powerfull than Harmony, remember that Harmony heavy invested Scadrial and its lifeforms.

 

If Unity exists or comes to exist, (I'm not convinced at all yet) it would not necessarily be significantly more powerful than Harmony, (arguably it would be less powerful) as it would be heavily Splintered with the Seons, and the Skaze, whatever they look like.

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If Unity exists or comes to exist, (I'm not convinced at all yet) it would not necessarily be significantly more powerful than Harmony, (arguably it would be less powerful) as it would be heavily Splintered with the Seons, and the Skaze, whatever they look like.

It's not important for the Theory, but I am not sure of the powerlevel between this two superShards.

 

"Unity" has Seon and Skaze as Splinters it's true. But seems there aren't many of them (or at least It's how I understood from Elantris) maybe some hundreds each (Brandon states that the Selish's Shadesmar condition are the result of low number of Seon-Skaze compared to the Roshan Spren).

Harmony (or the previous hosts) invested any livingform of Scadrial, invested much more the Humans with his Preservation's Investiture and then removed his extra Ruin's Investiture to balance his power. More R&P possibly created the whole Scadrial as a Planet (or at least create great parts of this).

This is why I am not sure about how much avaliable power Harmony has. If He "play at home" it's probably the fearest enemy ever.

 

But returning at the Theory, It's possible for you "comand the Dor to un-splinter" ? We saw like in the AonDor the Elantrian give precise istructions to the Dor to obtain the right result.

Some colossal Aon (someone says Elantris ?) could be build to gather more Dor than usual. But what if "Elantris  is expanded with modifiers in a complex (and huge) aon with the right istructions?" It could be possible to "pick-up the Dor" ?

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I really like this theory. It is the best written example of my own perception of where the Spiritual energies of the two Shards went and what they have become.

I also especially like the idea of modifying Aon Rao to use it as an Investitute harvesting mechanism, so as to provide a mechanism to reverse the Splintering of Devotion and Dominion.

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It's not important for the Theory, but I am not sure of the powerlevel between this two superShards.

 

"Unity" has Seon and Skaze as Splinters it's true. But seems there aren't many of them (or at least It's how I understood from Elantris) maybe some hundreds each (Brandon states that the Selish's Shadesmar condition are the result of low number of Seon-Skaze compared to the Roshan Spren).

Harmony (or the previous hosts) invested any livingform of Scadrial, invested much more the Humans with his Preservation's Investiture and then removed his extra Ruin's Investiture to balance his power. More R&P possibly created the whole Scadrial as a Planet (or at least create great parts of this).

This is why I am not sure about how much avaliable power Harmony has. If He "play at home" it's probably the fearest enemy ever.

 

But returning at the Theory, It's possible for you "comand the Dor to un-splinter" ? We saw like in the AonDor the Elantrian give precise istructions to the Dor to obtain the right result.

Some colossal Aon (someone says Elantris ?) could be build to gather more Dor than usual. But what if "Elantris  is expanded with modifiers in a complex (and huge) aon with the right istructions?" It could be possible to "pick-up the Dor" ?

 

Harmony is unlikely to leave Scadrial due to how heavily invested he is there and the fact that it's his home and he wants to help it. Harmony has no splinters of his own power, although may be producing Atium to keep his two Shards in balance. A few hundred splinters from each shard, if Devotion and Dominion reformed into a shard, would tie up a lot more of its power than that Atium. That's all I'm saying.

Oh, and if Devotion and Dominion have merged, Odium certainly doesn't know about it, as he thinks that Harmony is the scariest thing around, and two merged shards would have him quaking in his boots.

 

Finally, if Devotion and Dominion merge, I really don't think Unity is an appropriate name for them. I would hazard a guess at Servitude, as Devotion implies serving others, and Dominion implies accepting the service of others.

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Harmony is unlikely to leave Scadrial due to how heavily invested he is there and the fact that it's his home and he wants to help it. Harmony has no splinters of his own power, although may be producing Atium to keep his two Shards in balance. A few hundred splinters from each shard, if Devotion and Dominion reformed into a shard, would tie up a lot more of its power than that Atium. That's all I'm saying.

You forget all the investiture used to make million of souls.

 

Oh, and if Devotion and Dominion have merged, Odium certainly doesn't know about it, as he thinks that Harmony is the scariest thing around, and two merged shards would have him quaking in his boots.

Also If Devotion and Dominion have merged, they are the center of one of the most fearfull force in the cosmere. A malestrom of wild Investiture without of control, Odium could think that are quite impossible to "pick-up" it.

 

Finally, if Devotion and Dominion merge, I really don't think Unity is an appropriate name for them. I would hazard a guess at Servitude, as Devotion implies serving others, and Dominion implies accepting the service of others.

Well here you could be right, but I extrapolated this interpretation of the Shrds' Intent from Elantris. This don't mean that i can't be wrong of course.

But I feel quite right with:

Devotion= Unity through love

Dominion= Unity through control (it could be "through Strenght")

I was ispired (like the theory says) by the evolution of the Shu-keseg religion, but I could be wrong of course :)

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Unity is the theme of three religions on Sycla. It's not actually related to the intent of the two splintered shards, as far as we know, but it is confusing because the two splinter sects of Shu-Keseg do roughly align with each of the Shards' intents. I always took this as the unconscious influence that the shards have had on Selish society, rather than an indication that the shards necessarily have any affinity with Shu-Keseg itself. It also helps to remember that these religions were probably themed this way to provide us with hints to the intents of the splintered Shards, once we found out what Shards were in Mistborn, as that's how we guessed and confirmed via WoB that Sel played host to Devotion and Dominion. (even with the word Dominion appearing in the text, it was a while before we confirmed it as the intent for Skai)

 

Now, if you're saying that some of the splintered power has mixed together, that's entirely possible. But if nobody holds any of that power, it's no longer a Shard as we understand that term. A Shard is a mix of magical power in a certain form with a (possibly human) mind attached to it to direct the power. We don't even know if it's possible to re-assemble a Splintered Shard at this point, so the idea of it happening naturally and being picked up by a new Shard holder seems pretty unlikely without Brandon putting Chekov's gun on the table for this idea by talking about how it might be done.

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Now, if you're saying that some of the splintered power has mixed together, that's entirely possible. But if nobody holds any of that power, it's no longer a Shard as we understand that term. A Shard is a mix of magical power in a certain form with a (possibly human) mind attached to it to direct the power. We don't even know if it's possible to re-assemble a Splintered Shard at this point, so the idea of it happening naturally and being picked up by a new Shard holder seems pretty unlikely without Brandon putting Chekov's gun on the table for this idea by talking about how it might be done.

The point in this therory indeed is about "Unity" to be a single "splintered shard" like could be Honor in Stormlight Archive.

For this theory (that could be wrong of course) the Dor is composed be Unity's Splinters.

 

The Sub-theory born of the main one:

After I thinking about, I thought that if the separate remains of two Shards are mixing together (premise) it's probably that also the same-shard remain are merging (thesis) and the Shattered Shard could be again a Shard.

 

Then Brandon states that is possible to un-splintered a Shard.

 

 

MASON WHEELER

You've said that Splintering a shard is essentially the same thing as the shattering of Adonalsium, repeated on a smaller scale.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yeah.

MASON WHEELER

And a while ago, someone asked you if Splintering was permanent or reversible, and you said that it can be reversed.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yeah.

The idea of the auto-repair are indeed strange I know, but if the interpretation of their Intent with "Unity through X" is true. They was driven by their own Intent to merge. And as far as we know this happened.

 

The main point of this theory is: The Dor is a corpse of a new shard, not the patchwork of two corpse of shards. (cool definition indeed I have to edit the first post XD)

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Very good theory. I also think Aon of Elantris can be modified to access Dor shard itself. I beliee the immense size of Aon rao is the reason Elantris and elantrians exist. If something similar can be done with a size of whole country, the results can be amazing. As amazing as taking up the shard itself.

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You might find this thread interesting.

 

I don't think I agree with your theory here, that the Dor is a single shard corpse, instead of a patchwork of two, however.  Namely because "Harmony" isn't really a single Shard either.  Yes it sometimes acts like a single shard (namely in the event of its holder's death, i.e. it doesn't automatically separate into Ruin and Preservation) but Ruin and Preservation are still differentiated to an extent with two distinct intents.  That's part of why Sazed is so relatively inactive, he's dealing with two diametrically opposed intents.

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I'd actually say the discussion in that thread is leaning me even more towards agreeing that Devotion and Dominion are merging or merged into one Shard corpse, rather than being two.  Harmony is very nearly one Shard and not two separate ones, but the fact that it was only recently combined and that it's two Shards that are such opposites would probably slow that process.  Devotion and Dominion are already very compatible, and without a holder and in the situation they're in, I doubt they could ever be separated, making it at best a pointless distinction to still consider them separate Shards.  It seems very likely that they are, for all intents and purposes, now one splintered Shard, rather than separate Shards that just happen to mingle and provide their investiture together.

 

jW

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My WoB sense is tingling but I'm at a loss for where the WoB is located on theoryland. It was something about looking upon two splintered Shards from afar, one black and one white, and how from a distance they would look grey but I can't remember what it was tagged under. Anyone else know the one i'm thinking of? 

 

Basically my view is that it could be seen as either, but until we know more of how the Dor works pre- and post splintering, i'm leaning towards the patchwork. It could explain why some of the magics only work in some areas whilst others do not

Edited by ParadoxSpren
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Basically my view is that it could be seen as either, but until we know more of how the Dor works pre- and post splintering, i'm leaning towards the patchwork. It could explain why some of the magics only work in some areas whilst others do not

One of my point (that i forgot to put in the beginning  :blink: ) was about the "Selish magic" before the Odium's actions.

We know (but I don't have the WoB avaliable) that before Aona&Skai murder the Manifestation of Investiture of Sel was different and there wasn't the Dor. We saw (on Roshar) that the Splintering of a Shard doesn't "shake" the manifestation of his Investiture. Therefore I immagined that something "deeply has changed" in Devotion and Dominion.

 

I'd actually say the discussion in that thread is leaning me even more towards agreeing that Devotion and Dominion are merging or merged into one Shard corpse, rather than being two.  Harmony is very nearly one Shard and not two separate ones, but the fact that it was only recently combined and that it's two Shards that are such opposites would probably slow that process.  Devotion and Dominion are already very compatible, and without a holder and in the situation they're in, I doubt they could ever be separated, making it at best a pointless distinction to still consider them separate Shards.  It seems very likely that they are, for all intents and purposes, now one splintered Shard, rather than separate Shards that just happen to mingle and provide their investiture together.

 

jW

 

I though just this, Harmony is an 300 years old shard, very "young" indeed.

 

From some WoB (and again I had to re-find it) Mr. Sanderson stated that (paraphrased) "When Sazed took Preservation and Ruin, the shards began to mingle" there probably a not sedden phenomenon

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One of my point (that i forgot to put in the beginning  :blink: ) was about the "Selish magic" before the Odium's actions.

We know (but I don't have the WoB avaliable) that before Aona&Skai murder the Manifestation of Investiture of Sel was different and there wasn't the Dor. We saw (on Roshar) that the Splintering of a Shard doesn't "shake" the manifestation of his Investiture. Therefore I immagined that something "deeply has changed" in Devotion and Dominion.

 

 

Citation? Don't ever remember reading that part, only that the magic works differently now than before their splintering.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Devotion and Dominion are complementary, yes, but I'm not sure I'd agree that they are very compatible.

In a way they're as much opposites as Ruin and Preservation were.

 

If you look at the real world mythological definition of "Dominions" you'll find this on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_angelic_hierarchy#Dominions_or_Lordships)

 

 

The "Dominions" ... or "Dominations" are presented as the hierarchy of celestial beings "Lordships" in some English translations of the De Coelesti Hierarchia. The Dominions regulate the duties of lower angels. It is only with extreme rarity that the angelic lords make themselves physically known to humans.

So Dominion, apart from being linked to territorial possession, represents hierarchy (this idea is reinforced by the Shu-Dereth religion).

Specifically hierarchy from a superior-to-subordinate perspective.

 

Devotion, on the other hand, is the act of intentionally placing someone or something above oneself. Raoden being devoted to his people's wellbeing means that Raoden acknowledges that his people are more important than he himself.

 

This model would tend to work well in the two splintered shards cooperating to form the Dor as a single source of power, as has already been established. In my opinion, however, it would actually prevent the shards merging into one, due to their remaining intent.

 

You'd essentially be asking something that wants to be supreme to become one with something that wants to support/worship something greater than itself. (Combining the two wouldn't be 'Unity', if anything it'd be called Narcissism. :P)

 

ParadoxSpren mentioned a black and a white splintered shard being seen as grey from a distance, and I must say I have trouble thinking of a different situation than that of Devotion and Dominion to fit that description. And I might be misinterpreting him, but that sounds like him saying that the two shards remain separate. I personally envision the Dor more like a Yin and Yang symbol (or the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai to this crowd): two opposites cooperating to form a single whole, but also remaining distinct and separate. (I guess if it spins fast enough it'd also look gray  ;))

 

The fact that the different Selian magics only work in certain areas is a function of some of their power coming from Dominion, specifically the territorial aspect of the Shard. Remember that a Shard's intent determines how it's associated magics obtain their power (as in fuel).

 

from the Coppermind.net 

 

 

 Dominion is why nationality and the land is a focus for many forms of accessing the Dor, but it is unclear how Devotion affected it...

 

It goes on to say that one way is that Elantrians must be devoted to something to be taken by the Shaod...

Dakhor monks have to be amazingly devoted to allow someone to reform their bones in some rather gruesome ways, and ChayShan and Forgery take years of study and practice, which counts as pretty devoted in my book.

 

Now a last question to ponder, if two shards are splintered, effectively becoming isolated fragments of investiture, could they recombine without 'unsplintering' in the process? And can a complete shard even exist without a mind to guide it? (I'll be attempting to research that)

Edited by EagleOfTheForestPath
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The fact that the different Selian magics only work in certain areas is a function of some of their power coming from Dominion, specifically the territorial aspect of the Shard. Remember that a Shard's intent determines how it's associated magics obtain their power (as in fuel).

 

This is not true by WoB. Dominion is not the reason that magic is geographical on Sel.

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In this theory I used the Religions' core as if their was inspired by someone who know a lot about the Realmatic Theorys. Of couse there is no 100% ;-)

But with that interpretation of Devotion and Dominion, the two Shards' Intent are quite compatible and both had the Unity as ultimate target.

We know that powers without "controlling mind" may develop sentience.

Therefore with many centuries and the right "will" the splinters may try to became one.

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Drat, the wiki is wrong  :unsure:

 

But actually it rather reinforces the idea that Dominion is hierarchy, not territory.

 

Yeah, someone was naughty and put their speculation on the Wiki as if it was fact without confirming first. ;)

 

I'm inclined to agree with Eagle that Dominion is based on heirarchical interactions, which would make it a reasonably neat opposing half to Autonomy, which might also help explain how Odium splintered two shards. (by asking for help to "free" the people of Sel from Dominion) I would regard Devotion as being opposed to Dominion in something more akin to the way Preservation and Cultivation would be opposed- they're not actually fully antagonistic, but the intent of their Shards are part in conflict with each other and part not.

 

 

In this theory I used the Religions' core as if their was inspired by someone who know a lot about the Realmatic Theorys. Of couse there is no 100% ;-)

But with that interpretation of Devotion and Dominion, the two Shards' Intent are quite compatible and both had the Unity as ultimate target.

We know that powers without "controlling mind" may develop sentience.

Therefore with many centuries and the right "will" the splinters may try to became one.

 

That last sentence is a huge leap. Sure, a Shard can be repaired according to that WoB. But we have no idea how that would be done. It probably requires active help from people with access to Investiture in the very least, and most likely very specific types of Investiture. And to "seal" the repair you'd still have to have someone pick up the pieces at the end, or at best you'd end up with a great big Splinter of Adonalsium with its own sentience, like a turbo-Stormfather, rather than a Shard. And that's assuming that leaving the power unheld doesn't automatically Splinter it somehow, which could be the implication of what Brandon talks about when he says that unheld Shards result in the power gaining sentience.

 

I just don't see how this process could happen naturally without any hint about it in any of the Selish stories to date, as presumably at least some of the Seons and Skaze would have to start disappearing into this new Shard that was being created.

Edited by Ari
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.....

Sorry Ari but the topic went far from my initial point, I talked about Unity not as a Full-Shard without a holder.

At the beginning (the first post) I told about "Unity" like a new Double-Class-Shard (like Harmony) but Splintered (like Honor).

It's quite what happening if someone (for example Odium) kills Sazed and Splinters Harmony.

 

And my point was about the Splinters of both of Shards who find them compatible (and with the Hierarchy interpretation, quite complementary) and begin to merge. But the result is (except Seon and Skaze) a lot of Devotion-Dominion Splinters. That on Sel everyone call Dor.

 

The Theory is quite: The Dor is a Dismembrered Corpse of a new Duble-Class-Shard.

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I think we're probably having a labelling disagreement. You're saying "this thing can happen where some of the investiture from Dominion merges with some of the investiture from Devotion, even though their sentient splinters stay seperate." I don't dispute that it could, although we have no precedent for it and no active evidence.

 

What I'm saying is that that thing you're talking about is not a Shard yet, nor even the corpse of a Shard, (as those can be picked up by a single person) and we don't even know if the process you'd go through to repair a shard would pull the two types of investiture apart again. With so little knowledge about how the repair process works, we don't even know if Dominion and Devotion ever will be made whole again, let alone what happens if their power has merged this way- it could even be that such an intermingling would prevent them from being made whole, at least until you separated the powers. In short, whether you want to call it Servitude or Unity, we have no idea that it actually exists, and no precedent that two Shards' powers can be mixed without the consent of whatever mind holds those powers, whether Splinter or Shard, and no precedent that repairing it would give you a double-Shard the same way Harmony became one.

 

And that's without getting into Shadows of Self spoilers, which could cast doubt onto whether you could even merge Dominion and Devotion.

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My WoB sense is tingling but I'm at a loss for where the WoB is located on theoryland. It was something about looking upon two splintered Shards from afar, one black and one white, and how from a distance they would look grey but I can't remember what it was tagged under. Anyone else know the one i'm thinking of? 

Does anyone know where this might be, because if it's a true quote (I feel like I have seen something like this myself) it would suggest that the two Splintered Shards have not merged to make one Splintered Super-Shard, however are basically acting as though they have;

I would say that without a mind controlling the powers of the Shards, they're still acting to a degree, effecting the world... However it's like the colour analogy - you add a bit of black here, and a bit of white here, you end up with grey - If a bit of Dominion's residue power effects something, then a bit of Devotion's residue power effects it too, you've basically got the same end result as if this 'Unity' did. Like how Feruchemy is both Preservation and Ruin, isn't it basically of Harmony?

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