theory Magical Technology on Scadrial

[Argent]

I wasn't trying to imply full control. Influence works just as fine for my purposes.

[Robot Aztec]

Yeah The control lingers a bit which is why vin kept putting the earing back in after takeing it out b

[skaa]

Haemalurgic spikes are slightly more different than that as they do contain a piece of the victims sdna.(Whether they steal a part of the victims cognitive aspect or not is still very open to debate ) They definitely aren't equivalent to spren but they could *maybe* serve a similar purpose in this theoretical system.

Alright, I concede that it's a valid theory. The Hemalurgic spike would dictate the effect of the Mist-invested metal. Now I'm interested to hear speculations on how the whole process could work. There would have to be a way of inducing metals to absorb Mist, since they apparently don't do that automatically (otherwise the Northern Allomancers would surely notice), unlike in Roshar where gemstones absorb Stormlight even without Spren. Any thoughts?

Edited October 22, 2013 by skaa

[Shardlet]

Not only that, Alendi was just as convinced as Vin that the power should be released.  It is not like Ruin had to constantly convince Vin of this.  He only needed to steer her research and let her draw her own conclusions.  He changed things enough that it was apparent to Vin that the power needs to be released rather than used.

 

As to Alendi removing his spikes, the point was of course moot since he never made it that far.  The Terris having a different religion suggests that they would not have had the prayer spikes and so, again, a non-issue for Rashek since he would not likely have had spikes at the time.

[Meg]

We - or at least I - don't know enough the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial, ...

 

I'd like to remind that there isn't a Cognitive Realm for each planet/Shardworld.

 

And there is a single plane of existence—(called Shadesmar,) the Cognitive Realm—which connects them all.

source

 

I added the brackets because focusing on the word Shadesmar is ambiguous.

 

 

Here's a WoB:

 

 

Thanks for the WoB but I really, really would appreciate if sources were given, too.

 

----

When Vin entered the Well of Ascension, she didn't only remove her earring but her vials, too. If this was needed to be done, I don't know, but I wanted this point not to be overseen.

 

With a sudden flare, her earlobe began to hurt. She cried out, pulling her earring free, dropping it into the depths. She pulled off her sash, letting it—and her Allomantic vials—go as well, removing the only metals on her person.

The Well of Ascension, Chapter 58

 

Hopefully nobody is bothered about my remarks (hence they are not really ontopic with the theory discussed).

[Kadrok]

When Vin entered the Well of Ascension, she didn't only remove her earring but her vials, too. If this was needed to be done, I don't know, but I wanted this point not to be overseen.

Fair enough. My understanding was that the well was rejecting only her earring, but she assumed the well was rejecting all metal because she didn't know at that point that her earring was a Hemalurgic spike, and thus didn't have a reason to distinguish it from her other metals.

[Argent]

A good clarification on Shadesmar, but I think it's moot. Shadesmar's... characteristics vary in the different Expanses. We know that traveling to and from Sel is dangerous and/or difficult because of how Shadesmar was affected by the Splintering of Devotion and Dominion. So while your reminder is absolutely true, it's also a semantic one - strictly speaking, what I should've said is "the Cognitive Realm around Scadrial" or "the Cognitive Realm Expanse that corresponds to Scadrial in the Physical Realm."

[Oudeis]

 There would have to be a way of inducing metals to absorb Mist, since they apparently don't do that automatically (otherwise the Northern Allomancers would surely notice),

 

I still say Rashek. We know that when he took on the power of Preservation, he gained knowledge of allomancy (the metals he wrote of on the walls of the caches). Can anyone recall how he learned how to make Koloss, Inquisitors and Kandra? Did he just get that from holding Preservation, or did Ruin whisper the secrets to him? Since there obviously is a way to access the metallic arts mechanically, I do not think it is a large stretch to assume that he knew of this, as well.

 

I think he set up a cadmium machine on the southern continent to ensure as little time passed as possible for the people down there. I think the people down there could have studied this machine, which was likely beyond their personal capabilities, but maybe they learned enough about it to craft knock-offs. That's how they know how to invest metal with mist; they've studied a machine that does just that.

[Isomere]

I believe you need four things for a magic to function: Two types of investiture, a physical vessel, and cognitive control. Temporary investiture acts as fuel, powering the magic and being consumed in the process. Permanent investiture acts like a key, granting access to the power. The physical vessel harnesses and filters the power, then a cognitive control directs how that power will be used.

Fabrials:

Stormlight = temporary investiture

Spren = permanent investiture

Gemstone = determines the color of stormlight (ie. specifies pulse width and frequency of the stormlight)

Stormlight pattern = cognitive control to determine effect

Allomantic Machines:

Mists = temporary investiture

Hemalurgic charge = permanent investiture

Hemalurgic spike = the metal type specifies pulse width and frequency of the allomantic force

??? = cognitive control

Temporary investiture

I really like the idea of using the mists to fuel these machines. Seems plausible, but very limited since the mists are not always available. Perhaps long term mist storage would be possible? It would also cause trouble if you used these machines away from the planet since there are no mists anywhere else in the Cosmere.

We know that allomancers can use the mists directly as a power source, but there is another option. They can use a metal focus to open a temporary investiture that lasts until the metal is consumed. I'd much rather own a machine that burns metals rather than be dependent on gathering mists, but I suspect you could get them to function with either power source. That opens up another interesting line of thought since we still don't know the Roshar equivalent of burning a metal. I'm still convinced it's sound and would love to see a sound based Fabrial that doesn't need stormlight.

Permanent Investiture

We know this exists in spren since Brandon has told us they all contain a piece of the Almighty. On Scadrial there doesn't seem to be any loose investiture roaming the planet, so we'll need to spike it out of a living soul.

Physical Vessel

Stormgems trap spren, absorb pure stormlight and emit colored stormlight. Hemalurgic spikes steal investiture directly from a soul and trap it. Could they also absorb the mists? If they can, it would seem reasonable that the spike would emit only the "color" of allomantic power associated with the base metal used for the spike.

Cognitive Control

The stormlight patterns determine how a Fabrial will use the power. Known patterns can create a diminisher, augmentor, conjoiner or reverser. I'd assume that when creating a mechanical allomancy device the craftsman will need to create a similar pattern. Perhaps the case holding the spike will need to be carefully tooled or some such.

[Argent]

Gemstone = determines the color of stormlight (ie. specifies pulse width and frequency of the stormlight)

 

 

Is this in reference to common physics or Elantris?

[Kadrok]

I believe you need four things for a magic to function: Two types of investiture, a physical vessel, and cognitive control. Temporary investiture acts as fuel, powering the magic and being consumed in the process. Permanent investiture acts like a key, granting access to the power. The physical vessel harnesses and filters the power, then a cognitive control directs how that power will be used.

Fabrials:

Stormlight = temporary investiture

Spren = permanent investiture

Gemstone = determines the color of stormlight (ie. specifies pulse width and frequency of the stormlight)

Stormlight pattern = cognitive control to determine effect

Allomantic Machines:

Mists = temporary investiture

Hemalurgic charge = permanent investiture

Hemalurgic spike = the metal type specifies pulse width and frequency of the allomantic force

??? = cognitive control

Nicely summarised!

 

Temporary investiture

I really like the idea of using the mists to fuel these machines. Seems plausible, but very limited since the mists are not always available. Perhaps long term mist storage would be possible? It would also cause trouble if you used these machines away from the planet since there are no mists anywhere else in the Cosmere.

I'm thinking... Nicrosil Feruchemy... the MAG (not an ideal source, but the only one we have) tells us that someone could draw on the mists and convert it Nicrosil stored Investiture (a tap-able but unshaped Temporary Investiture). Perhaps there is a way to rig up a spike charged with Feru-Nicrosil (and connected somehow to a Nicrosilmind) to use as a "solar panel"? A source which powers the Metallic Arts Machine, and recharges while the mists are out...

[Isomere]

Is this in reference to common physics or Elantris?

Both actually. People on Sel and Scadrial use the words "pulse length and frequency" to describe magical power. Since stormlight is light it should also have a wavelength and frequency. I'm suggesting Stormlight, the Dor and Allomantic power are all basically the same thing: the Power of Creation.

[Argent]

Which is why I asked - I had been re-listening Graphic Audio's Elantris (while re-rereading The Way of Kings, for twice as much Brandonism!), keeping an eye (ear?) on mentions of magic, so I vividly remembered those words from the one of the books Raoden was reading.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Argent

[Oudeis]

People discuss hemalurgy a lot on these fora as a viable option. I don't think Mr. Sanderson thinks it is so.

 

The following quote is from the MAG but before you get up in arms, this isn't part of the game mechanics, this is a quote from Mr. Sanderson himself that was included in the book. You can find it on the second page of the hemalurgy section of the Treastise Metallurgic.
 

Is Hemalurgy evil? Most certainly. Killing someone and stealing a part of their soul isn’t a goodly act.

 

He then goes on about using "found spikes" and whether or not it is justifiable. The point is, hemalurgy is a bad thing. I feel like I've seen a lot of people who heard Mr. Sanderson say that you don't technically by definition need to kill someone for hemalurgy to work, and are assuming that means oh good, carte blanche, let's just hemalurgy the hell out of everyone. If mechanical allomancy requires hemalurgy, then it is evil. If that's the basis for the southern tribe's magic, then their magic is evil. As far as I'm concerned, end of story.

[Kadrok]

The point is, hemalurgy is a bad thing. I feel like I've seen a lot of people who heard Mr. Sanderson say that you don't technically by definition need to kill someone for hemalurgy to work, and are assuming that means oh good, carte blanche, let's just hemalurgy the hell out of everyone. If mechanical allomancy requires hemalurgy, then it is evil. If that's the basis for the southern tribe's magic, then their magic is evil. As far as I'm concerned, end of story.

I agree that Hemalurgy (even nonlethal) is evil. But I'm suggesting possibilities for the Southern Kingdom's magic system, not commenting on whether I think they are a moral society.

[WeiryWriter]

I'm surprised the Brandon explicitly stated "Hemalurgy is evil" because, in my opinion it isn't for the same reason Ruin isn't "evil".  As a manifestation it is neither good or evil it just is, how people use it another matter.  Most of the time hemalurgy is used for evil yes, but what if I'm a misting of considerable power and I want to pass that ability on to my heirs?  I say spike me on my death bed, is that evil? I don't think so.

[Argent]

Aye. The human sacrifices from Elantris' Jesker Mysteries certainly qualify as evil, but they exist.

[Robot Aztec]

 

/>People discuss hemalurgy a lot on these fora as a viable option. I don't think Mr. Sanderson thinks it is so.

 

The following quote is from the MAG but before you get up in arms, this isn't part of the game mechanics, this is a quote from Mr. Sanderson himself that was included in the book. You can find it on the second page of the hemalurgy section of the Treastise Metallurgic.

 

 

He then goes on about using "found spikes" and whether or not it is justifiable. The point is, hemalurgy is a bad thing. I feel like I've seen a lot of people who heard Mr. Sanderson say that you don't technically by definition need to kill someone for hemalurgy to work, and are assuming that means oh good, carte blanche, let's just hemalurgy the hell out of everyone. If mechanical allomancy requires hemalurgy, then it is evil. If that's the basis for the southern tribe's magic, then their magic is evil. As far as I'm concerned, end of story.

 

But If you use emarlurgy without killing people and stealing their souls then there is no reaosn for it to be evil we know hoemalrugy works on animals and if I am right it works on plants too so nobodys gonna argue that killing a tree is wrong except maybe superhippys but thy dont count ALSO is it just me or does mist power machines sound like final fanatsay nine?

[Oudeis]

I'm surprised the Brandon explicitly stated "Hemalurgy is evil" because, in my opinion it isn't for the same reason Ruin isn't "evil".  As a manifestation it is neither good or evil it just is, how people use it another matter.  Most of the time hemalurgy is used for evil yes, but what if I'm a misting of considerable power and I want to pass that ability on to my heirs?  I say spike me on my death bed, is that evil? I don't think so.

 

If hemalurgy were simply the end of a life, you'd have a point, in that lives end. I think that you're missing a point of hemalurgy. It rips souls apart. It isn't good to have your soul ripped apart, and it isn't good to have someone else's soul patchworked onto your own. I think you're right, if it were simply a matter of "someone dies, and my Rioting gets passed down like the good china," then it would not be evil. I think Mr. Sanderson says it's evil for a very different reason that people are largely ignoring. I hesitate to suggest I know why people do things, but it feels very much like "I can't really visualize what ripping my soul apart means so I'm going to assume it's not that big a deal". I could pick up a kitchen knife and start slicing up my arm. It wouldn't hurt anyone else. In the long term it likely wouldn't cause any lasting physical damage to myself. It's my arm, and my choice, right? It's still a very, very bad idea.

 

There was a moral debate I had in college about cloning. If a child dies, would it be wrong of the parents to clone him? Hit reset with the child? It's easy to say, we won't treat him like the same one over again. It's easy to say, we won't get frustrated when he doesn't turn out exactly like the last one. Why won't you eat your peas? The first you never gave me this much trouble with his vegetables. It sounds easy, and it's easy to hand-wave and say, no, none of those things would be a problem. In real life, I don't believe anyone is so perfectly functional they'd be able to pull that off. Is perfection theoretically possible? Yes, it always is. Will it ever, even once, work out perfectly? No. In real life, it never does.

 

I love my grandmother, and I miss her everyday, and if I could spend another day with her I would. Does that mean I wish I could have ripped her soul to pieces as she passed so I could graft it only my own? No. Not even if she said she was okay with it. If she said she was okay with it, I would assume it meant she didn't really understand the process she was talking about.

 

I agree that Hemalurgy (even nonlethal) is evil. But I'm suggesting possibilities for the Southern Kingdom's magic system, not commenting on whether I think they are a moral society.

 

I'm only talking about the system of magic. If hemalurgy is widely accepted in society, then yes, the society is depraved and evil. I don't see that as sustainable. I realize Mr. Sanderson has never shied away from having evil, tyrannical societies, but he's already made hemalurgy evil. Why would he invent an entirely new branch of magic, and have it be as verboten as one he's already got? I could see this new mechanical form of allomancy being something that could be augmented with hemalurgy, but I don't expect to see it being dependent.

 

Aye. The human sacrifices from Elantris' Jesker Mysteries certainly qualify as evil, but they exist.

 

And they are pushed underground and punished severely when found. They are incredibly minor in society, because as grubby and ignoble as the average person is, as willing as they are to pick up a wallet off the ground or cut in line for a cab, a society has to be truly evil before they will accept true evil as commonplace. The Lord Ruler was as in-control of his society as is basically possible to be short of a literal hive-mind, and even he kept hemalurgy to closed doors and boogeymen. The Koloss and Inquisitors were demons shown to be apart from mortal men, and no one even knew what the spikes were for, or that Koloss even had them. I guess we're not promised that mechanical allomancy is open and allowed in the south, but it being a cabal of a few obviously evil people (like the Mysteries) is the only way it can involve hemalurgy.

 

   

But If you use emarlurgy without killing people and stealing their souls then there is no reaosn for it to be evil we know hoemalrugy works on animals and if I am right it works on plants too so nobodys gonna argue that killing a tree is wrong except maybe superhippys but thy dont count

 

And this is the attitude I see on all the fora. The quote from Mr. Sanderson only said that 'stabbing someone with metal and ripping out their soul is not, technically, always fatal', and people have run with that to decide it clearly means it's the literal equivalent of just giving blood. Hemalurgy rips your soul apart. End of story. If you survive by some miracle, you will not be the same, and you might not be glad you did. Accepting a spike turns your own spiritweb into a frankenstein's monster. It is not harmless, it is not child-friendly, and WoB, it. Is. Evil.

 

Not very long ago, victims of post-traumatic stress were told to just suck it up. If a wound wasn't visible, it was considered not to exist. I hope that at some point Brandon shows a character feeling, experiencing their own spiritweb so it stops being this abstract concept that does nothing but grant you magic powers like a fancy lego block tacked onto a lego car. Even better, I hope he does show a survivor of hemalurgy. Show them not just losing a power (or eyesight or intelligence, whichever spike was used), show them suffering a wound that no one treats, that no one can see, that no one really believes exists. I want him to show us the hell such a life would be. And then you are all free to tell me how hemalurgy is harmless.

 

We know that being a Drab is a much bigger deal than Hallandrens believe, and Breaths were meant to be given away. Try to imagine being a Drab because someone ripped your very soul apart.

[Satsuoni]

If hemalurgy were simply the end of a life, you'd have a point, in that lives end. I think that you're missing a point of hemalurgy. It rips souls apart. It isn't good to have your soul ripped apart, and it isn't good to have someone else's soul patchworked onto your own.

Well, yes, but if you are going to kill somebody anyway (like during war), not ripping his soul and using it to augment oneself is greater evil, since it is wasteful killing. Besides, enemy is enemy. The problem here is reliability - like the fact that you may go insane and become less useful.

 

There was a moral debate I had in college about cloning. If a child dies, would it be wrong of the parents to clone him? Hit reset with the child? It's easy to say, we won't treat him like the same one over again.

Because the clone is completely different organism, and currently cloning mammal tends to reduce the lifespan drastically, anyway. So, much better to get another child the natural way. For now.

 

I love my grandmother, and I miss her everyday, and if I could spend another day with her I would. Does that mean I wish I could have ripped her soul to pieces as she passed so I could graft it only my own? No. Not even if she said she was okay with it. If she said she was okay with it, I would assume it meant she didn't really understand the process she was talking about.

Ok, well... When I was 12, my grandfather died before my eyes. I tried to catch his soul in a mirror and absorb it. (I don't think it worked). So. I would probably be ok with that. And my cat. And probably grandma. Though only if somebody I trusted would perform the operation.

 

I'm only talking about the system of magic. If hemalurgy is widely accepted in society, then yes, the society is depraved and evil. I don't see that as sustainable. I realize Mr. Sanderson has never shied away from having evil, tyrannical societies, but he's already made hemalurgy evil. Why would he invent an entirely new branch of magic, and have it be as verboten as one he's already got? I could see this new mechanical form of allomancy being something that could be augmented with hemalurgy, but I don't expect to see it being dependent.

It all depends on the society: Imagine, for example, people living underground, with limited resources, but machinery that, for a small price of 12 infants a year would guarantee survival of the colony. Are you sure they won't do it? Won't consider it normal, the children heroes? In TLR rule skaa were killed left right and center, for almost any crime, for sleeping (or being raped by) nobles, for hemalurgy experiments. TLR hid hemalurgy not because he thought it evil or depraved, but because it was power that could be used against him (and of Ruin). And his society was stable enough for a thousand years.

 

And this is the attitude I see on all the fora. The quote from Mr. Sanderson only said that 'stabbing someone with metal and ripping out their soul is not, technically, always fatal', and people have run with that to decide it clearly means it's the literal equivalent of just giving blood. Hemalurgy rips your soul apart. End of story. If you survive by some miracle, you will not be the same, and you might not be glad you did. Accepting a spike turns your own spiritweb into a frankenstein's monster. It is not harmless, it is not child-friendly, and WoB, it. Is. Evil.

Well, sure. It is evil. But useful. You can make sentient cats with it - that is always useful. And the wars are also evil - yet societies go to war again and again, for no gain and little reason. Wars are much more useless.

 

Not very long ago, victims of post-traumatic stress were told to just suck it up. If a wound wasn't visible, it was considered not to exist. I hope that at some point Brandon shows a character feeling, experiencing their own spiritweb so it stops being this abstract concept that does nothing but grant you magic powers like a fancy lego block tacked onto a lego car. Even better, I hope he does show a survivor of hemalurgy. Show them not just losing a power (or eyesight or intelligence, whichever spike was used), show them suffering a wound that no one treats, that no one can see, that no one really believes exists. I want him to show us the hell such a life would be. And then you are all free to tell me how hemalurgy is harmless.

I am relatively sure that such damage would be quite visible, akin to Koloss transform. Muscles atrophying, skin sloughing off, insanity almost guaranteed... Though the wound you speak of might be possible with Allomancy spike taken.

 

We know that being a Drab is a much bigger deal than Hallandrens believe, and Breaths were meant to be given away. Try to imagine being a Drab because someone ripped your very soul apart.

That is what my enemies deserve

 

That said, it is possible that hemalurgy is not necessary, or is used only individually (metal is grafted into your body and spirit, without removing part and minimal decay). We shall see.

[Meg]

I'm surprised the Brandon explicitly stated "Hemalurgy is evil" because, in my opinion it isn't for the same reason Ruin isn't "evil".  As a manifestation it is neither good or evil it just is, how people use it another matter.  Most of the time hemalurgy is used for evil yes, but what if I'm a misting of considerable power and I want to pass that ability on to my heirs?  I say spike me on my death bed, is that evil? I don't think so.

 

Where has BS stated that Hemalurgy is evil? In relation to the Mistborn Adventure Game (I only found one such quote on tvtropes.org, and that doesn't seem earnest nor canonical to me)?

 

The Ars Arcanum of AoL is contradicting this "Hemalurgy is evil"-sentence:

 

Though many through history have maligned it as an “evil” art, none of the Investitures are actually evil.

[Satsuoni]

I believe the quote is in MAG as a quote from Brandon himself, so it is reliable enough. Brandon has a different morality set from his characters, though, one of whom wrote Ars Arcanum. Since "evil" depends on person, well...

[Oudeis]

@ Meg:

 

Yeah, what Satsu said. I know the quote is from MAG which itself is non-canon, but the book is peppered with quotes from Mr. Sanderson himself, and that's one of them. I would never cite something like their numbers on how fast steelpushes can be, but a quote from Mr. Sanderson is a quote from Mr. Sanderson, wherever it happens to appear.

 

Well, yes, but if you are going to kill somebody anyway (like during war), not ripping his soul and using it to augment oneself is greater evil, since it is wasteful killing. Besides, enemy is enemy. The problem here is reliability - like the fact that you may go insane and become less useful.

 

If your brother murders your neighbor in order to steal his pie, and you know this, is it wrong for you to eat the pie? After all, he doesn't need the pie anymore. The legal term for that is "accessory after the fact", and it is both legally and morally wrong. Even in war, even when we kill people, there are things we've promised not to do, because they are too heinous. In the United States, the death penalty is meant as a deterrent; don't commit crimes or this could be you. Why then do we give lethal injections? Why don't we stake someone out in the town square and let him die of thirst over the course of days? Why don't we cut off another knuckle each day? There are some things that are simply wrong, and the ends do not justify the means.

 

Ok, well... When I was 12, my grandfather died before my eyes. I tried to catch his soul in a mirror and absorb it. (I don't think it worked). So. I would probably be ok with that. And my cat. And probably grandma.

 

And if you knew that you weren't just keeping grandpa around, that you were ripping his soul in half? That his last moments in the world would be filled with excruciating agony? You seem to be someone who feels a soul is eternal. You'd damnation him to a literal eternity of never being whole again? Your mirror idea was sweet and your intent was noble, and I wish for your sake it had worked. But that is nothing like hemalurgy. Hemalurgy is not some bird-cage for the soul. Hemalurgy would be if you had ripped off your grandfather's arm so you'd have something to remember him by.

 

It all depends on the society: Imagine, for example, people living underground, with limited resources, but machinery that, for a small price of 12 infants a year would guarantee survival of the colony. Are you sure they won't do it? Won't consider it normal, the children heroes? In TLR rule skaa were killed left right and center, for almost any crime, for sleeping (or being raped by) nobles, for hemalurgy experiments. TLR hid hemalurgy not because he thought it evil or depraved, but because it was power that could be used against him (and of Ruin). And his society was stable enough for a thousand years.

 

Yes, people would do that. But there would always be dissidents. You can save a population, but there is no way you could hurt those twelve families worse. And the Final Empire was broken. It was literally held together by nothing more than the might of a man who had been God. There were revolts within his first decades of rule. Society crumbled within hours of his death. That's not real stability, that's divine intervention.

 

I am relatively sure that such damage would be quite visible, akin to Koloss transform. Muscles atrophying, skin sloughing off, insanity almost guaranteed... Though the wound you speak of might be possible with Allomancy spike taken.

 

If you spiked someone with tin and stole their sight, and she somehow survived... yes, there'd be the visible wound. There'd be the actual, physical wound from the spike and there would be the obvious, measurable malady of her blindness. But I put to you that those are nothing. Many people live normal lives whether born blind or blinded in life. People have physical scars, even disabling ones, and get along fine. Those are not the injuries I am talking about.

 

Read about depression. Read about post-traumatic stress. Read about any of the other wounds people have that cannot be seen, that cannot be shown at parties. A common thread is a feeling of alone-ness. We, in our enlightened society with charity drives and psychology and evolved empathy, five decades ago refused to accept that a soldier could suffer from trauma; when forced to acknowledge it we called it "shell shock" and decided their brains had been damaged by being too close to an explosion. Even now, you seem to be missing my point. I talk to you about having your very soul torn into pieces, and your rejoinder is to talk about atrophied muscles. Try to think about what I'm actually talking about. Even if we don't know yet what losing part of your spiritweb feels like to a person, try to imagine living in the wild west with a deep psychological trauma, and knowing that there's not one person you know who believes you. The worst ones keep trying to make you better, keep trying to force you to just "get over it" and then being angry at you, blaming you for not trying, when it fails. Atrophied muscles will be the absolute least of your concerns.

[Robot Aztec]

WoB, it. Is. Evil.

NO! WoB is it is evil BECAUSE X so if NOT X then the statement about evil is not justified "Killing someone and stealing a part of their soul isn’t a goodly ac" but if it isnt 'killing' because nonfatal or isnt 'someone' because it is plants or 'stealing' because it is willingly givem then the staetment doesnt apply like if i said "living on amrs is impossbile becuse there is no water" but then someone broughty a big crate of dasani then i would say "fine you can live on mars" but anyway in the final empire nobody knows ow to do any hemlurgy except fatal on people (except ruin but he doesnt want to share and is evil anywya), so prtactically during the first series nobody can do any nonevil hemarlugy which is all the time the rpg covers brandon also says that its impossible to have allomancy and feruchemy because the genetics dont allow it because he is only talking about during the first trilogy

[Satsuoni]

If your brother murders your neighbor in order to steal his pie, and you know this, is it wrong for you to eat the pie? After all, he doesn't need the pie anymore. The legal term for that is "accessory after the fact", and it is both legally and morally wrong.

Huh. Well, depends on whether I liked the neighbor. Wait, illegal? Legal system is weird. Well, murder for pie is wrong anyway. Don't confuse "murder for pie" and "murder in self-defense and then eating the body since there is no other food around."

 

Even in war, even when we kill people, there are things we've promised not to do, because they are too heinous. In the United States, the death penalty is meant as a deterrent; don't commit crimes or this could be you. Why then do we give lethal injections? Why don't we stake someone out in the town square and let him die of thirst over the course of days? Why don't we cut off another knuckle each day? There are some things that are simply wrong, and the ends do not justify the means.

Because that is useless and unsanitary. And a lot of people (possibly myself including) are squeamish. Using his organs for transplants might be a better solution than injection. At least he would be able to, in some way, compensate for the evils he has committed.

 

 

And if you knew that you weren't just keeping grandpa around, that you were ripping his soul in half? That his last moments in the world would be filled with excruciating agony? You seem to be someone who feels a soul is eternal. You'd damnation him to a literal eternity of never being whole again? Your mirror idea was sweet and your intent was noble, and I wish for your sake it had worked. But that is nothing like hemalurgy. Hemalurgy is not some bird-cage for the soul. Hemalurgy would be if you had ripped off your grandfather's arm so you'd have something to remember him by.

Maybe?   I have always had an egoistic streak, and I wouldn't be thinking clearly, preferring sweet, sweet madness from stolen piece of soul to a sense of loss.

 

Yes, people would do that. But there would always be dissidents. You can save a population, but there is no way you could hurt those twelve families worse. And the Final Empire was broken. It was literally held together by nothing more than the might of a man who had been God. There were revolts within his first decades of rule. Society crumbled within hours of his death. That's not real stability, that's divine intervention.

Well, sure, but it is a pretty good copy of our society (specifically, not a bad copy  of Stalin's era and several pre-Ussr epochs). It might not be stable, but it was recurring in history again and again: semi-stability, dissidents, revolt, revolution, repressions, and back again to the beginning. That cycle is pretty stable. And families did sell their own children to feed others.

 

Read about depression. Read about post-traumatic stress. Read about any of the other wounds people have that cannot be seen, that cannot be shown at parties. A common thread is a feeling of alone-ness.

I know, I lived with the stuff for most of my life. Though lacking psychiatrists in my country, I am not sure if constant fear counts as depression. Even now, I live alone, with no one to talk to when I get depressed - though I talk to them when I am OK, I simply don't trust them enough to discuss more negative issues. I've learned to cope by repression and concentrating on the pain until something in the head gives and it goes away

 

 The worst ones keep trying to make you better, keep trying to force you to just "get over it" and then being angry at you, blaming you for not trying, when it fails.

Yes, that does describe my mother rather concisely, though she isn't the worst  

Still, survivable Hemalurgy is more useful for extracting several attributes before mercy killing. Or using as punishment for grievous crimes. Though it does make me wonder about what is happening to the soul of spiked and spikee after death...