Seattle signing report out 10/14/13

[Shardlet]

Ok, I can certainly agree that the duralumin itself contributes no more than the instantaneous burn of co-burned metals.

[Kadrok]

Thanks Shardlet! I was surprised by the universality of Hemalurgy. Very surprised. I guess "the seeds of the metallic arts" only applies to Feruchemy and Allomancy.

A: Intention is involved.  It’s tricky because Ruin did it to people who didn’t know what they were doing, but…

Q: But, Ruin intended to do it, though.

 

A: But, Ruin intended to do it and knows how to manipulate it so that intentions would happen.  Intention is very important, if you read through the magics, to a lot of them.

 

Also, like Kurk I will now pat myself on the back! Well... sort of... I guess I'll give myself a partial pat on the back since I was only half right:

I wonder if Hemalurgy requires the intent of someone with the "seeds of the metallic arts". "Ah!" you say, "But what of that guy who stabbed Spook?" to which I will respond that the application of Hemalurgic intent could have easily come from Ruin, rather than anyone physically there...

So... yeah... applying a bemused half pat...

[Wetlander]

Sorry to have taken so long to get here, and not have read quite all the comments... So if this is a repetition, sorry again.

 

However: I can confirm that the order is Elsecallers. 

 

KaraokeAng & Shardlet - it sure was fun to meet you!! Loved getting all the names of the surges and orders straightened out.

[Kurkistan]

@Shardlet

 

Okay, looks like we're in agreement.

 

@Kads

 

Yeah, the "seeds". I guess Brandon just misspoke that one time.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Chaos]

@Shardlet

 

Okay, looks like we're in agreement.

 

@Kads

 

Yeah, the "seeds". I guess Brandon just misspoke that one time.

Or you misinterpreted it

[Kurkistan]

Never that! 

[Scott]

@Shardlet

 

What Robot said. There's infinite and then there's infinite. Vin would have destroyed the world with a Steelpush if Duralumin truly yielded infinite power.

 

I'm sure the world would be fine.  I'd be more worried about poor Vin exiting the atmosphere and ending up in the sun, or possibly on Roshar.  Maybe that's what caused the shattered plains; A mistborn accidentally duraluminum pushed against the planet and discovered FTL travel

[Nepene]

On the earlier subject of surface tension-

 

The cause of surface tension is electromagnetic attraction between electrons and protons in the molecules, along with some quantum effects that moderate the location of the electrons.

 

With water for example, the positive hydrogen ion (a proton) is attracted to the electrons on the oxygen atom.

 

 

To break the surface tension you have to force those water molecules apart which takes energy, just as it takes energy to force apart two magnets.

 

This attractive force balances out with repulsive forces if the electrons get too close, just as if you try to force together two n n poles of a magnet.

 

This diagram shows the balance of forces, and the energy in between them. As you can see, as they get closer together they get energy (to -1) and as they get closer it starts costing more and more energy.

 

In a solid, the attractive forces are balanced with the repulsive forces, holding the atoms close together.

 

In a gas the molecles have enough motion, kinetic energy, that they overcome the attractive forces and go quite far apart.

 

This means that in a material's natural state it is in the most favorable mode (generally, ignoring kinetics) in terms of maximizing the bond strength. You can't increase the bond strength by pushing them closer together. That takes energy, as the above diagram shows. There's an optimum minimum of energy, and if you push them closer together it takes energy.

 

For the surge of surface tension you need to modify one of several things. You could cool down the molecues, reduce their kinetic energy, so they could hold together more easily. You could tweak the quantum effects, so that the electrons could get closer more easily. You could alter the bonding mode to something more favorable, so they were better aligned to attract each other. You can slow down time so that less damage can be done. Or you could increase the attraction or decrease the repulsion of the molecules.

 

I've seen several of these methods used in sci fi. Ringworld universe has stasis fields and increased strength molecular bonds for example.

 

You could just say 'it's magic' but if you want a scientific explanation better to use a decent one. The increased strength of interatomic bond one looks good. You can say, just as the gravity surge strengthens the bonds between a person and the earth, the surface tension surge strengthens the bonds between the spren in a material.

Edited October 20, 2013 by Nepene

[Shardlet]

The difference is, in the example that Brandon gave, there is no change in states of matter.  Only the rigidity of the matter in it's present state is changed.

[WeiryWriter]

On a side note, there is a youtube recording of the signing.

 

[Nepene]

The difference is, in the example that Brandon gave, there is no change in states of matter.  Only the rigidity of the matter in it's present state is changed.

 

None of my explanations require a change in the state of matter. Although realistically with any of them, if you used them on a liquid it'd probably change to a solid.

[karaokeang]

KaraokeAng & Shardlet - it sure was fun to meet you!! Loved getting all the names of the surges and orders straightened out.

 

It was great meeting you too!  It is exciting to share my love of all things Brandon with people who are just excited as me.  My friends read his books but they don't LOVE them the way I do.

[Argent]

I feel your pain there...

[Mailliw73]

/>Only after I clarify it with Brandon. Which won't happen today or tomorrow for sure.

Hey, Peter, have you had a chance to clarify the incorrect ones with Brandon yet?

[Moogle]

If the Stonewards don't have Travel, how'd the one in Dalinar's vision show up?

 

Edit: And wasn't it called Travel in an interview, not Transportation? I'll have to watch that video.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Moogle

[Shardlet]

If the Stonewards don't have Travel, how'd the one in Dalinar's vision show up?

 

Edit: And wasn't it called Travel in an interview, not Transportation? I'll have to watch that video.

 

Previously he said travel.  Karaokeang talked to him, he seemed to favor transportation.  FYI, it will not be on the video.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Shardlet

[WeiryWriter]

If the Stonewards don't have Travel, how'd the one in Dalinar's vision show up?

 

Edit: And wasn't it called Travel in an interview, not Transportation? I'll have to watch that video.

 

Brandon correct Travel to Transportation.

 

As for the Stoneward in the vision, we don't know.  I think the most likely answer is a fabrial that replicates the Transportation Surge.

[Mailliw73]

Or I think, if one of the orders with transportation can transport others, that would work.

[Moogle]

Or I think, if one of the orders with transportation can transport others, that would work.

 

If it's that simple, it seems odd you'd send the Windrunners to do anything during attacks like the one in the vision. As fast as Gravity lets you go, it's still going to take hours to get anywhere. I get the feeling instantaneous travel is quite limited. Plus, how would the Stoneward get back?

[Kurkistan]

As Weiry said, they could have used a Transportation fabrial. We know that there are fabrials to reproduce every surgebinding ability, so it's not a stretch. The could be retrieved by fabrial or by members of "Transporter" Orders once their high-priority combat deployments were done with.

Source on fabrials: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/4254-chicago-steelheart-signing-2-wheeling/

Edited October 21, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Moogle]

Well, I suppose it makes sense if the fabrials for teleportation are that common. You'd send a Windrunner (with their own teleportation fabrial), because from up high they make excellent scouts and they are combat-oriented, and you'd send the Stonewards because they're one of the more combat-oriented orders besides the Windrunners (as evidenced by the fact that whenever we see Radiants in Dalinar's visions, it's always Windrunners and Stonewards), and I guess they have useful powers too? We didn't see any in the vision, but it doesn't mean they weren't being used.

 

I don't like how useless it makes Travel as a Surge (their powers are none-too-subtle and aren't needed too often, meaning they make excellent fabrial powers... so why waste 1/2 of your powers on it as a Radiant? My powergaming instincts scream at me about how poor of a choice it is!), but my personal feelings are no argument for the plausibility and we don't know enough about how most of the Surges work.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Moogle

[Shardlet]

Well, we have not yet seen the travel surge in action.  There may be other uses (making and operating oathgates likely) that go along with that.  But in the vein of your comment, the same could be said for transformation and likely many other surges.  There is also the combination ability that is unique to each order.  We have not yet seen that either. 

[deddinty]

I would also guess that a fabrial made to imitate powers would be far more limited than what the radiant themselves could accomplish.  For example soulcasters - Jasnah and Shallan may have individual talents with soulcasting, but they could likely soulcast anything with practice.  Whereas we've heard that soulcasting fabrials are often limited in what they can soulcast.

 

I imagine that travel fabrial would be limited, perhaps something like the spanreeds, one fabrial is connected to one fabrial.  Whereas having transportation as a surge would be far less limited.  In fact I wouldn't be surprised if a radiant with the travel surge was required to transport the Stoneward to the Windrunner in that vision.

Edited October 21, 2013 by deddinty

[Kurkistan]

I would also guess that a fabrial made to imitate powers would be far more limited than what the radiant themselves could accomplish.  For example soulcasters - Jasnah and Shallan may have individual talents with soulcasting, but they could likely soulcast anything with practice.  Whereas we've heard that soulcasting fabrials are often limited in what they can soulcast.

 

I imagine that travel fabrial would be limited, perhaps something like the spanreeds, one fabrial is connected to one fabrial.  Whereas having transportation as a surge would be far less limited.  In fact I wouldn't be surprised if a radiant with the travel surge was required to transport the Stoneward to the Windrunner in that vision.

 

I like this line of reasoning on the limitations of fabrials. Though, for soulcasters, it is claimed that "universal" fabrial soulcasters exist. Some doubt the verity of that claim.

[Satsuoni]

I would also guess that a fabrial made to imitate powers would be far more limited than what the radiant themselves could accomplish.  For example soulcasters - Jasnah and Shallan may have individual talents with soulcasting, but they could likely soulcast anything with practice.  Whereas we've heard that soulcasting fabrials are often limited in what they can soulcast.

While that is true, it is also possible to create a fabrial that has a function outside of Radiant abilities, by using other kinds of spren that do not usually bond with people (like painspren, for instance). So while a single fabrial may be more limited, the field as a whole is probably much more flexible that ten orders of KR.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Satsuoni