marianmi Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Regarding Dalinar - I don't think his visions come from any of his KR surges, it's just his talent. Like Kaladin's talent is the spear, Shallan's talent is Memory, Lift's talent is making stormlight out of food. Looks like these talents are outside the nahel bond itself, and help the surgebinders/interfere with their surges in unexpected ways. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Count Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 There is another problem here, however. Brandon said that he wants Roshar's surges to be akin to natural forces. Communication could pass for a force-like entity (communication -> propagation of information -> entropy, things like that), but perception is something livings things do. It's more like an ability. I could see most of the surges explained by a less enlightened societies as things, forces, that "just are." We don't know how gravity works - it's just out there, doing its thing, attracting things; we don't know how division really works, in part because it's the opposite of gravity. We don't understand why things really grow - molecular biology doesn't strike me as a very well understood science on Roshar. By the same token, light and transformation also just are. I know I am not making the best argument right now, but I wanted to put my thoughts out there. I could elaborate when I have more, should there be need. This is the big one for me that kills the communication / perception surge theory... The surges are all based aroud natural forces so I think it hightly unlikely that this will be broken... Having said that, I definitly think that one of the Orders will be able to do some form of communication... My favorite guess for the last surge is: Vibration or Resonance. No real basis for this though, just a feeling... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post PeterAhlstrom Posted October 24, 2013 Popular Post Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 OK, I talked to Brandon about the chart. He says that in the typical chaos of a signing, he didn't notice that the circles that were being pointed to sometimes weren't the ones he thought they were. Anyway here is what I have to say about the chart: Gravity and Pressure should be switched. The "surface tension" one should be switched with the unrevealed one next to it. Also, the in-world names for many of the Surges haven't yet been canonically revealed and may not ultimately match what's here. For example, where it says light, on my chart I have Illumination. The names of the Heralds are also a hodgepodge. Some of them are the ancient name, some are the Vorin name, and some are just the name of the number that corresponds to that Herald. 21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Thank you kind sir. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 (edited) Thanks, Peter, (always) good to know. Pretty much all of us have been working with the default assumption that names can change, so that at least is warning we've been operating under anyway So Ishar's order has pressure & "surface tension"? This sounds defensive. I now have to wonder whether Dalinar would belong with these guys... Edited October 24, 2013 by Argent 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mailliw73 Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Woah, this changes things a bit. We still don't know what stoneward's other surge is, but now bondsmiths don't have "surface tension". Also, Skybreakers have gravity instead of pressure. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Unless Bondsmith's have pressure and 'surface tension'. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mailliw73 Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Oh, I thought it was confirmed that Bondsmiths were #8 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Nope. Brandon merely tossed out that one of the unrevealed orders was called Bondsmith's. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaokeang Posted October 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 (edited) I have updated the chart! You can find it here! Thanks bunches Peter!!! Edited October 24, 2013 by karaokeang 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeiryWriter Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 I have updated the chart! You can find it here! Curses! I was just about to post my version of the chart, but you beat me to it. But seriously, woo! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaokeang Posted October 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Curses! I was just about to post my version of the chart, but you beat me to it. But seriously, woo! I had most of it corrected in Photoshop already so I just had to move stuff around and re-export it. I intentionally left the sources as a psd so I can regularly update it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Thanks for the updates. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mailliw73 Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 I like Bondsmiths much, much better as #10 than #8. It just didn't feel right to me before. This seems like a much better fit, IMO. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Flying skybreakers make more sense. But now we have no idea where to place bondsmiths I still say it's 10. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 And that would mean dalinar used pressure vs the chasmfiend. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mailliw73 Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 If we assume he is a Bondsmith. I personally think he is a Stoneward. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 #10: Ishi, the oldest herald (from the pics) - Dalinar is also oldest... pious, guiding -> Dalinar has become pious, and will be guiding the king and the Alethi towards honoring the code. Also, pious matches his talent to receive the visions. I do think it's a really good match for #10, no matter the name of the order. Bondsmiths is not a bad name for the order, given these attributes... but it could also match resolute/builder... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mailliw73 Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 He is also Dependable and Resourceful. Because of the name Stoneward, I picture that they are also very firm, in my mind, he is someone who is firm and you cand depend on him for anything and to always be there. He is strong like a stone and hard to break. Stonewards, I feel has also been foreshadowed. It's also just a gut feeling. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 To make matters even more confusing, his chosen Glory is to be dependable, and his Calling - leadership. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 (edited) Stonewardens are fighters/warriors. I see Dalinar as the next Nohadon. Nohadon was not a warrior. Dalinar is not a warrior anymore. He gave away his shards. His role is now to guide. The faster he is getting into his new role, the faster he will "ascend" to KR level. If he were a stonewarden, he would have found their immortal words when fighting the chasmfiend or when fighting on the Tower. Those were pretty good opportunities (especially the tower - "I will help my soldiers that depend on me" - POW - awesomeness - WHACK!) Now, I think he'll find the words when confronted with a more ... political ... crisis. (e.g.: "I will guide KRs and reform them, even though everyone thinks KRs are evil and they will wanna kill me" - POW - awesomeness!) Later edit: if he were stonewarden - dependable/resourceful - I'm sure he would have "snapped" when he decided not to leave the soldiers in the tower (dependable) even though he and Adolin could have jumped away). Edited October 24, 2013 by marianmi 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mailliw73 Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 (edited) Bondsmiths, assuming their surges are "Surface Tension" and Pressure, also would make powerful warriors, more of defensive ones, but still. I don't think it will be easy at all for him to give up his fighting life, I mean, he's been a warrior for a long time. Do you need a spren before you say the words, or is it the other way around, I can't remember? If it's the first, he couldn't become a KR on the Tower, he doesn't yet have a spren. I also don't think he's very pious. Somewhat, yes, but devout, I'm not so sure, I think he disagrees with some Vorin teachings. Edited October 24, 2013 by Mailliw73 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 (edited) And he does not have a spren because he did not exhibit the respective traits. He shows that he is dependable - but no spren came => he is not a stonewarden. When he will show more Guiding => the bondsmith spren will come to him. That's what I argued before. If he were #9, the spren should have come already. Later edit: he will become more pious also when he understands more from his visions and breaks free of the current (odium-influenced) religious practices. Edited October 24, 2013 by marianmi 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mailliw73 Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 I think he has had plenty of experience guiding. He's been a high prince for how long? And led at the front of an army for even longer. I think he should've had multiple opportunities for that. I could also argue that in the Tower battle he guided his whole army against the Parshendi and guided them by continuing to fight. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 (edited) Let's look at all potential KRs - they all somehow show the traits, but are in conflict about it. Shallan has issues with telling the truth. (she lies/does not want to tell the truth) Kalladin has issues with protecting/leading due to Tien (he does not want to protect/lead) Lift obviously had issues with caring/remembering (talking to Darkness: "I tried to be like you" - only after she stopped being like Darkness would she have been able to get Wyndle) All potential KRs are defined by their conflict with their KR attributes. They do not start with these traits, they acquire/perfection/come to live with them. What is Dalinar in conflict with? He's in conflict with his beliefs about the Almighty because of his visions (pious). He is in conflict with guiding. He wants to give up his house's leadership. He does not want to guide anymore. He does not trust himself. He's been a highprice for a long time, but not truly "guiding". He's been complacent with things on the shattered plains. Now, he wants to guide. He wants to unite them. Now, he is attracting the spren. Edited October 24, 2013 by marianmi 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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