Oudeis Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 It's curious and I want to discuss it. I'm reading through the book again in preparation for the next one, and I'm collecting the data as I find it and trying to dissect it. Please, no spoilers for the next book, if the spoiler chapters even mention the government. Wax is mentioned to have a seat on the City Senate. Is that meant to imply that it only rules the city? Do the laws not extend to the Roughs? It is from Wax's POV. Maybe he thinks of the Senate as a "city" thing, whereas other Senators would think of it as being all of known Scadrian civilization. It's been too long since far too few people gathered to rebuild civilization for me to believe there are seriously splintering nation-states yet, so close. Koloss culture is to one side, obviously. Perhaps the Terris Enclaves are a distinct nation, or just a moiety withing Elendel. Either way, I don't believe there's either a cohesive government controlling every other settlement, or that Elendel doesn't at least claim jurisdiction everywhere, regardless of whether this proves enforceable. With trade, shipping, and taxes, much law has to be uniform. In the broadsheets, House Tekiel mentions that it's going to take action, not wait for the other House Lords to solve it via endless debate. Yet, we know that more than House Lords are in the Senate. The Orchard-Growers have a seat. The seamstresses and factory workers hired by House Ladrian have representation based on their occupation. Why only call out the Lords? Is the Senate bicameral? Also, why would this even be the Senate? It doesn't seem a matter of legislation. Is it not yet illegal to kidnap and steal? This strongly implies that, unlike our world in either America or England (or most governments I know of) the Senate is not a purely legislative body; law enforcement is typically part of an executive branch. Yet I find it odd that Wax considers himself removed from the process of law enforcement if he has executive powers. Surely he must have some influence in law? Also, the constables are down-right rude to him, which you wouldn't expect of someone talking to someone who might have oversight powers. So what is it Tekiel is expecting the House Lords to be so slow at doing, and why aren't the Senators for occupations mentioned? How does this occupation thing work, anyway? Does House Ladrian own the families who work for him? If my father is a factory worker, does that mean I have to be a factory worker, too? What if I want to be an orchard-grower? What if the House my family belongs to doesn't own orchards? It's mentioned that if House Ladrian collapses, its workers will go to other Houses but be second-class citizens for a few generations. If I decide to be something other than what my father was, does that mean I'm condemning my lineage through my grandchildren to second-class status with our new masters? On a smaller scale like that, are there ways for me to be taken on as an orchard-grower and accepted as a full citizen without the stigma? Is there a difference between profession-based Senators? If there are more orchard-growers in the city than seamstresses, does the orchard-grower seat have broader powers? What if it's a critical job? People working on railroads are critical to civilization in a way that no other single industry is. Does the Railway senate seat take this into account, even if it has fewer people than the fish industry? Is population not taken into account? How do you prove you work a specific job to be able to vote for that senate seat? If you work two jobs, do you get to vote for both? What about niche industries? There cannot possibly be enough zinc therapists to warrant an entire Zinc Therapist Senate seat. Are they lumped in with another category? Are they marginalized for not having the same needs as the more mainstream members of their profession? Wax is referred to, once, as a High Lord. Is that the title for a Lord with a Senate seat, rather than a normal Lord? Wax, for example, was presumably technically a Lord for being in the line of succession, even before he was the Senator. Is Lord Harms a Senator? No one ever refers to him as High Lord, but Wax is only called High Lord once that I can see, and Lord a lot. As I read more I'll try to keep my eye out for other bits of information. Any thoughts anyone has, or things I've missed, please speak up! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spencer12347 Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 I think in the Shadows of Self we are going to get more information on the government body or bodies then just the tidbits we got in Alloy of Law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted August 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 "The deals Wax negotiated would determine their wages, their privileges, their lifestyles." This seems to conflate business with government (in a way that makes me cringe deep in my "small government" bones, but that is neither here nor there). Wages, and to an extent lifestyle, are the sort of things you'd expect from a CEO, but what exactly is privilege? Do these people all live in one place? If you work in a Ladrian foundry, do you have to live in a Ladrian neighborhood? Does he get parks, pools, libraries built in Ladrian neighborhoods? Do you have to marry a nice Ladrian girl? If my niece is a Ladrian seamstress, but meets and falls in love with a fine Tekiel lad working at the new Tekiel Tower... but Tekiel doesn't employ seamstresses, or isn't hiring right now... does she join his House? Does their family split Houses? Which school would their kids go to? If they do employ seamstresses, does she have to leave House Ladrian? What would that mean for her relation with me, her uncle still working in a Ladrian foundry? Does the woman always join the man's House? Does the man always join the woman's House? Do they get to choose which of the two Houses they prefer? I wonder how many intrahouse marriages there are, and if they affect the dynamic of the Houses very much. That's a fascinating sort of political strategy I could see happening on old Scadrial; what if there's one specific woman who is an absolute genius and is basically the reason the Ironspine tower is a challenge to Tekiel Tower? What if Tekiel employs a young man of medium wit but surpassing beauty, and what if he could be incentivized, for the good of the House, to "randomly" meet her and sweep her away in a whirlwind romance? Also, just putting this here cuz I read it and I wonder. House Ladrian started at the Origin with "a few thousand" people. There were roughly 200K Originators. 40K were Terris; let's assume the majority of them went off to form their own Enclave. So originally there were something like 165K humans. Prolly a small percentage went off on their own. I wonder how many Houses there were, originally. You'd expect people to flock to the prestige of the people in the Crew, especially as most living people at the time of the Final Ascension were some flavor of Survivorist. So if anything, you'd expect Ladrian to be one of the larger Houses. Sidenote: I wonder if anyone researched the Ascendant Warrior and discovered she was a Tekiel by blood, and if this affected Tekiel's prestige ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the winter system Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 She was a Tekiel blood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeiryWriter Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 She was a Tekiel blood? Yeah her father, Tevidian, was a Tekiel. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 Well, House Ladrian got a good reputation from the whole Counselor of Gods gig. Was Ladrian Breeze's first name or family name? I would have to assume it's his last name but wouldn't people notice his nobility? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted August 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 I believe it was his family name. Only Sazed knew it, though, so it's not like there were a lot of people who had the pieces to put it together. Was House Harms formed at the Origin? Can Houses arise? We know they can fall; Wax comments that if his House falls, the workers will find other employers. What happens to his seat on the Senate? Is he by any chance in a voting bloc with people who would be willing to give him favorable conditions on deals, just to keep his vote on the Senate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaymyth Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 I believe it was his family name. Only Sazed knew it, though, so it's not like there were a lot of people who had the pieces to put it together. Was House Harms formed at the Origin? Can Houses arise? We know they can fall; Wax comments that if his House falls, the workers will find other employers. What happens to his seat on the Senate? Is he by any chance in a voting bloc with people who would be willing to give him favorable conditions on deals, just to keep his vote on the Senate? I remember AoL mentioning that Harms is a newer up-and-coming house. That was the whole reason behind the Wax-Steris wedding plans - his house has the history and social standing, hers as the cashflow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted August 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 They indicate that it's a rising house with a great deal of wealth. This question was actually provoked by reading that exact passage; it does not flat-out state whether or not House Harms has existed for a long time in a position of minor nobility, or if Lord Harms was born Mr. Harms, and simply bought his way into being armigerous. Steris does seem to have many distant cousins within the nobility, and remember she is an allomantically powerful line. Neither of which actually proves anything. I wonder. Could the terms of their marriage indicate that their second male child will become the heir to Harms's estate? More specifically, to his vote on the Senate? He seems a young enough man to at least live until his second grandson is past "infant mortality" age, perhaps he could set up Steris as legal guardian until he comes of a certain age. Now I feel the urge to write a story with this scenario... three brothers. The eldest is to inherit his father's title. The second has been raised as the heir to his maternal grandfather, who otherwise has no male issue. However, tragedy strikes the eldest brother, and now the question. The other two brothers will inherit. But does the now-eldest brother take over his father's lands, or the lands he was raised to? Does the younger brother take the vacant title, or take the middle-brother's hand-me-downs as they all shuffle up a spot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaymyth Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 Yeah, I'm not even sure that Harms has a Senate vote; he might not, which might be another reason behind the marriage alliance. I always had the impression that upward mobility was a lot more possible in 2nd Era Scadrial; the population is growing, and so is technology. There are always going to be innovators popping up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted August 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 I absolutely concur. I wonder, how is it determined? If Lord Harms recently came into a Senate seat, that would mean we could comb for information on him, and learn more about how Senate seats are awareded/determined. And lost (or merged?) since they don't seem concerned about multiple heirs. I'm inclined to believe Lord Harms does not have a Senate Seat. Just a general sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ookla the Absent Posted August 27, 2015 Report Share Posted August 27, 2015 As far as I can tell, the government is a bit like the UK, with a house of Lords and a house of Commons, with house representatives in one and guild reps in the other. Either that, or all major employers get a vote, and most people work either for a House or a guild. It did mention he had a lot of people who depended on him for employment, as well as representation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted August 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2015 I am instinctively biased against such a flagrant mix of business and governance. Can anyone with a more objective viewpoint and a solid foundation in politics comment on the pitfalls or advantages of such a system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowspren Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 Personally, I would really just like to see the reactions of the Kelsier's crew as they walk into the Elendel at this time. Obviously they're all dead (except Sazed of course) but it would be interesting how things would go down if they were all brought back to life somehow and they waltzed into Elendel. As historic and religious figures would the people of this time period accept their influence and rule? or would they expect them to mold to the modern society? Would people obey them? or would they find some way to denounce them once they saw them as people, not historic, legendary figures? Would people fight against them? I dunno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted August 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 Why would they want to rule? Elend would probably try, and succeed, at getting elected to something. Vin would be a little bored but at least happy everyone is safe. Breeze would simply enjoy the celebrity. Ham would retire quietly and spend time with his family. Dox would be ecstatic and prolly get a job in the government; maybe head of an oversight commision. Clubs would retire and become an artist. Who knows about Kelsier. Whatever he wants, I'm sure he would make happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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