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aeromancer

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This isn't Zemo paradox, Steelrunner speed increase is not affected by the Speed Of Light cap. Einstein's Theory of Special Relativity clearly states that nothing can exceed the speed of light, but I feel the need to point out the fact that there is magic at work here.

Edited by aeromancer
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Travelling back in time in a relativistic manner, yes.  But in a practical manner, not really.  In a practical manner, the steelrunner just got from point A to point B virtually instantly (while aging at the same rate as everyone else).  He/she did not get to point B before he/she left point A. 

 

Edit: added underlined text

Edited by Shardlet
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Relativistically, it should never go over. Ever. Not even with magic. Speed is how much distance in how much time. You can not store up negative time, because there isn't any of that to store.

However, you can get close, only if he stores up a ridiculous supply of mass while he's doing it.

It's probably more steel and iron than there is on Scadrial. Carrying that while running? Imagine the pewter you'd need, too. Oh, and you'd have to live longer than the Lord Ruler to ever have enough speed and strength.

 

That's not counting that an entire planet is a) covered in air that either slows you down, makes you catch fire, or tears you apart hitting the sound barrier, which is... 1/873 500th of the speed of light. Too fast and the air is a brick wall. Not to mention the actual brick walls.
or b ) an entire planet is much too short of a runway to get close

and my favourite thing to say is c) you can't run in space. What do you think it's made of?

 

To reiterate; slow down. Breaking the sound barrier with feruchemy might not be possible even in the modern-day trilogy.
There is a way to go faster than light built in to the metallic arts, but this is not it.

Edited by Jaaaaaade
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If we are to accept an allomantic/feruchemic/hemalurgic method of FTL then we have to accept that there is a work around to relativity in world.  True, Brandon does rely on real world physics, but he has also said in the same breath that the magic systems are generally necessarily outside of real world physics.  Until such a FTL mechanism is known and explored, I don't think we should reject an idea because physics says 'no'.

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We've already seen FTL without time travel in the worldhopping. It's just more magical than technological, and we don't understand the mechanism yet.

I expect the physics explanation for FTL without time travel will be a preferred reference frame. It's not a popular thing to do in sci-fi, but in the cosmere we know you can go to Shadesmar, cross an Expanse, and end up in another solar system. That's an awful lot like a preferred frame, so I expect to see one in the Physical Realm too.

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Worldhopping isn't FTL, it's dimensional travel. Possibly in the final Mistborn trilogy such a thing might occur in the Physical Realm, but it hasn't yet.

 

Relativistically, it should never go over. Ever. Not even with magic. Speed is how much distance in how much time. You can not store up negative time, because there isn't any of that to store.

However, you can get close, only if he stores up a ridiculous supply of mass while he's doing it.

It's probably more steel and iron than there is on Scadrial. Carrying that while running? Imagine the pewter you'd need, too. Oh, and you'd have to live longer than the Lord Ruler to ever have enough speed and strength.

 

That's not counting that an entire planet is a) covered in air that either slows you down, makes you catch fire, or tears you apart hitting the sound barrier, which is... 1/873 500th of the speed of light. Too fast and the air is a brick wall. Not to mention the actual brick walls.
or b ) an entire planet is much too short of a runway to get close

and my favourite thing to say is c) you can't run in space. What do you think it's made of?

 

To reiterate; slow down. Breaking the sound barrier with feruchemy might not be possible even in the modern-day trilogy.
There is a way to go faster than light built in to the metallic arts, but this is not it.

 

Answers: a ) You're a compounder, or better still a full Twinborn, with Hemalurgic powerups. Compounders can exponentially grow their reserves, and the Hemalurgic spikes give you superburning powers.

               b )Who needs a runway? There is no instance that a Steelrunner needs room to accelarate

               c )The reserve need not be big. A moment of FTL is good enough for time travel.

 

Also, how would you use the Metallic Arts to achieve FTL? 

Edited by aeromancer
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Worldhopping isn't FTL, it's dimensional travel. Possibly in the final Mistborn trilogy such a thing might occur in the Physical Realm, but it hasn't yet. 

 

Also, how would you use the Metallic Arts to achieve FTL?

 

Nope, no FTL yet.  Though there is supposed to be FTL travel in the third trilogy.  The FTL is supposed to be powered by the Scadrial magic systems.  So far there have been many ideas tossed around and most of them involve bendalloy.  But so far none of them sound particularly plausible (to me, at least).  I suspect it will strongly involve the way the southern continent uses the magic systems.

 

Edit: parenthesis portion added.

Edited by Shardlet
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Nope, no FTL yet.  Though there is supposed to be FTL travel in the third trilogy.  The FTL is supposed to be powered by the Scadrial magic systems.  So far there have been many ideas tossed around and most of them involve bendalloy.  But so far none of them sound particularly plausible.  I suspect it will strongly involve the way the southern continent uses the magic systems.

 

Oh Shardlet, you wound me:(

 

...But so far none of them sound particularly plausible (to me, at least). ...

 

Edit: parenthesis portion added.

 

Nope, still wounded. ;)

Edited by Kurkistan
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I seriously doubt that the FTL interplanetary travel in the third trilogy will be powered by steel ferrings.  But, in the theoretical sense of being able to store massive amounts of speed and expend that massive store in an instantaneous run that is FTL, then sure.  But, I wouldn't be surprised if there is a maximum threshold for the amount of a store that can be expended in an instant. 

 

When I used the word plausible in my previous post, I did not mean it in the sense of the ideas were unbelievable or unrealistic.  Rather, I meant it to mean that the explained mechanism did not seem likely to produce the declared outcome.  In other words, I did not think their ideas would work the way they thought they would.

 

Edit: I know you love your bendalloy Kurk.  But, I just haven't seen a bendalloy FTL theory yet that rings my bell :unsure: .

Edited by Shardlet
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Didn't mean to intrude on your arguments, but we're addressing different points here. I am trying to create time travel, whereas you are trying to create the abilities for interaction in the Physical Realm without traveling to Shadesmar.

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One last post before I swear to never utter another word on FTL until the third trilogy is out.

A compounder would still need more than a thousand years of constant compounding, and of course all the steel in the world. One might need more steel than is in the whole Cosmere to get about 0.99c. but then that's just off the top of my head. Wolfram/alpha wouldn't understand  my wording.

 

You're getting confused when you hear "unlimited speed". It's unlimited, but that's because it literally requires all the speed in the universe. A parallel example, you're trying to get colder than absolute zero. It's a lot less useful than breaking the light barrier, but hell it seems like a good idea to test it out. Imagine you're a drunk Feruchemist trying to win a bet. For reference it's −273.15° Celsius, or −459.67° Farenheit if your country hasn't gotten around to this century yet. No offence. So you get your hands on all the Brass you can find, and store every last drop of it in an instant. Your friend sticks a thermometer in you, and tells you that you're pretty cold, but not there yet. Also probably dead when your blood crystallised but let's ignore that. So you ask questions, like "Has my feruchemy been watered-down by mixed breeding outside the Terris community?", "Do I need more Brass?", "But I thought I could put in unlimited coldness all at once?"
Someone tries to tell you that you can't get any colder, so you try to think of loopholes to prove them wrong. "What if I put myself in a fridge powered by an allomantic engine and then try storing heat?" and "What if I put myself into a time bubble and touch a source of brass outside a time bubble, right on the edge so I can put in a lot more heat in a shorter time?"
and yes this is exactly what the FTL theories sound like so far.

Turns out that you actually can't get any colder. You're made of atoms, and each atom has to follow a guideline. A very small guideline, because they're only little atoms and they can't remember that much. It goes something like this:
"As an atom, I solemnly swear to never go colder than absolute zero, and never go faster than the speed limit." It's not hard. You can not get colder because atoms can not get colder. Reality stops once anything hits that temperature. Reality also stops when you hit the speed of light. Getting colder than absolute zero, and faster than the absolute speed, is having a straight line that is straighter than straight or being slower than standing perfectly still.

This explains it very simply 

 

I'm sorry if this is response is going overboard, except on a scale of measuring annoying questions this isn't like asking "Why didn't Gandalf use the eagles to get the ring to Mordor instead of walking?", It's more like going to the LotR forums and asking "Why didn't Gandalf use his magic to nuke Mordor into dust?"

 

Sanderson is smart, he does an insane amount of research into his magic systems, it's really great. Like no one in Way of Kings is going to use Lashings to make a black hole and suck in half the Cosmere (We hope). His FTL solution is going to be very well thought out, and is not going to use any kind of speed at all, at least not in the way we think about it, as in using force to displace mass over distances. Unless I'm wrong, and the book which breaks relativity comes with a free solid brick of Handwavium to beat out our brains with.

Thank you for your time.

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Also, there is something called "magic" at work here. Believe it or not, people can't actually get superpowers from eating metal. It doesn't matter how "logical" or "scientifically sound" your disproofs are, because we are in a zone that requires a suspension of belief.

(Yes Brandon's magic systems are more rational than anyone else's. But it's still magic.)

 

So what if a compounder need 1000 years? He's got Atium.

Also, once you go FTL, you don't have to move through the traditional methods of three-dimension movement. (based of theories by H. G. Wells) 

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Also, the absolute zero analogy doesn't hold.  Absolute zero is the point at which atomic motion stops.  This means no phononic interaction between atoms which means there is an absence of thermal heat. 

 

In contrast speed goes from zero to c IRL.  But, since Brandon says FTL is possible using the systems on Scadrial (including those systems or methods of using the systems we do know which we have not yet been introduced to) we must accept that with the help of magic, you can exceed the speed of light in the cosmere.  This means that the real life maximum speed of c, doesn't apply to this discussion.

 

Edit: As to air friction, it has been rightly pointed out that you'd fry at those velocities.  However, as I said before, I am speaking strictly theoretically.  There is no practical reason that I can see for a steel ferring to even attempt it.  Since it is theoretical, let us assume that air friction is zero.  Or if you must have an actual setting, in a very large warehouse which is perfectly sealed and has a perfect vacuum maintained within it and the ferring has a fancy suit with a self-contained breathing apparatus.

 

As to maximum storage and how much speed needs to be stored.  Recall, I am talking about using a complete storage in an instant.  So I can go 100 mph for 10 min or 200 mph for 5 min. or c for 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 sec. (note, this is not actually calculated.  I am merely using this obscenely short period of time as an example.  So please, don't bother to count the zeros and do the math.)

 

As to Kurk's wounded soul, I will read that 'Yet another FTL' thread again and get back to you.

Edited by Shardlet
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So in Cosmere, does physics work the same way in the physical realm as it does in our world? 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes. Source

 
BRANDON SANDERSON

The final Mistborn trilogy will indeed be sf, with a deep understanding of Allomancy and Feruchemy having allowed them to figure out a method of FTL travel. Source

 

 

Brandon has said that FTL is possible with a novel interaction between feruchemy and allomancy that requires a "deep understanding" of the metallic arts that us readers don't yet have. That suggests without a complex use of both magics FTL isn't possible. We know the same limits on approaching the speed of light exist in the cosmere, and there is no reason to assume feruchemical steel changes the nature of light, or the shape of space-time. It is a fun theory, but doesn't seem to fit what we have been told. 

 

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While, I agree that this idea is likely unfeasible in any practicle terms (I mean look at the assumptions I am posing to allow this to function.  In a vacuum, really!?).  Brandon indicates that FTL is possible using Scadrian systems and therefore we already know that Scadrian systems can enable stepping out of real life physics.  As to the second quote, Brandon is referring to FTL travel.  This comment, I suggest, is in the context of interstellar travel (being the only practical use of FTL travel) and therefore does not contemplate the present idea. 

 

Besides. like I said earlier, there is likely an upper limit (in feruchemy) to how much of a store you can use for a given minimum time.  This whole discussion is of little practical value since in any reasonably conceivable in-world circumstance it would not function the way I am talking about.   

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The reason I favor time bubbles is because they appear to change the nature of spacetime, and so get around the light speed limit much like the Alcubierre drive does: by manipulating space.

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I know.  It makes sense that bendalloy (or cadmium) would be involved for that exact reason.  I need to do a full in-depth look at your theory as well as the Alcubierre drive for context.  I'm not even sure if I didn't bypass your theory because it was more involved than I had time to deal with at the time.  I'll definitely check it out though.  If nothing else, I'm interested in what aspects of your theory correspond to Brandon's described missing piece that is forthcoming in the books. 

 

Edit: Although, if it is a work around for speed of light, then it wouldn't properly be FTL, right?  It seems to me, FTL necessarily steps outside of physics.  It may be effectively FTL, but not actually.  I guess that would really have to be defined.  Is the future trilogy FTL actually FTL or just effectively FTL?  Might be a good question to narrow things down.

Edited by Shardlet
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