The Ultimate List of Questions for Brandon

[The One Who Connects]

8 minutes ago, Hawkido said:

Is the Reason that Odium seems more powerful than the other shards because he draws power/strength from hatred, both the hatred he feels and the hatred he inspires others to feel toward him.  As Odium is both that which Hates and that which draws Hatred upon it.  Sort of a feedback loop.  Much like a microphone getting closer to a speaker, it creates a resonance. 

I don't know for sure if that has any effect on his power, but one reason that he was more powerful in the past was because he didn't invest in any worlds, while the other Shards did. That gave them less currently available power to fight back, so he won. This no longer applies, as Honor trapped him in the Roshar system, forcing him to invest by proxy.

So I can't give a yes/no to your question, but if your guess is right, it wasn't be the only reason he seems so strong.

[Djarskublar]

Maybe you could get a multi-spike by using something like an exploding caltrop... if that makes any sense. Surgically insert an Atium ball into a mistborn's heart, spikes extend from the ball and hit a bunch of bind points, extract the spike from the now dead person, and surgically insert it into the recipient. I'm not sure how you would get the spike to be one piece of metal and still spike properly, but... maybe?

[Hawkido]

5 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

So I can't give a yes/no to your question, but if your guess is right, it wasn't be the only reason he seems so strong.

I agree with the other points you made concerning this, and it definitely makes a difference... but Odium took out 2 shards at once (D&D), just how invested were D&D? Can it even be quantified in a way that could be equivocated from one shard to another?  Such as, 40% invested for Autonomy, would that weaken him/her vs. 40% invested Cultivation?  But I digress, had to delete alot of what I had written, it was just blather.

Back on the topic of my question: Brandon said that there is something more that gives Odium an edge.  Nothing makes someone hate you more than hating them back.  And resonance is a thing on Roshar.

  2 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

Maybe you could get a multi-spike by using something like an exploding caltrop... if that makes any sense. Surgically insert an Atium ball into a mistborn's heart, spikes extend from the ball and hit a bunch of bind points, extract the spike from the now dead person, and surgically insert it into the recipient. I'm not sure how you would get the spike to be one piece of metal and still spike properly, but... maybe?

Lol Atium Iron Maiden instead?  Would be easier from the outside and could make it all of one huge piece of Atium, if you could get a flexible hinge.  Of course moving around in it might be problematic.  Mental image makes be chuckle.  Phenomenal cosmic power! Teeny weeny living space.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Hawkido

[The One Who Connects]

@Hawkido

Insert WoB's with sketchy confirmations of "help against D&D" here.

In terms of quantifying it, I would consider it a time-based math. Once a Shard has fully invested in a World, it's as high as it can go. The point is that once invested, you would have to manually recollect it and disconnect from the world in order to leave at full strength. Otherwise you would have to rip away from the world(which has all manner of repercussions, aside from being damaging/painful) and leave that chunk of power there. So I don't actually know for sure.

Did he actually say "something more?" I semi-remember something along the lines of "not specifically this or that thing" but I thought it was ambiguous enough to be a combination of those things. Also, you've lost me on why you are bringing Resonance into it. What does that have to do with this?

[Farnsworth]

How did the original Elantrians come up with Aons? How did the first Scadrialins first put metal in their mouths?

[Oversleep]

13 minutes ago, Figberts said:

How did the first Scadrialins first put metal in their mouths?

Allomancy and Feruchemy is pretty easy.

Now, how did they discover Hemalurgy is beyond me...

[Dunkum]

33 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Allomancy and Feruchemy is pretty easy.

Now, how did they discover Hemalurgy is beyond me...

Well didn't TLR learn about it from holding the power of the Well?  and the Kandra/Koloss/Inquisitors would have learned what they knew from him.  though the inquisitors may have been willing to do some of their own experimentation too once they knew it was a thing

[The One Who Connects]

14 minutes ago, Dunkum said:

Well didn't TLR learn about it from holding the power of the Well?  and the Kandra/Koloss/Inquisitors would have learned what they knew from him.  though the inquisitors may have been willing to do some of their own experimentation too once they knew it was a thing

He can't have learned about Hemalurgy from the Well b/c the Well is pure Preservation. Ruin whispered to TLR how to make those constructs while he was ascended, for his "plan." The Inquisitors did experiment, whether it was of their own accord or by TLR's orders we don't know, but they never actually got anywhere new, which Sazed took to be a testament to Hemalurgy's complexity.

1 hour ago, Figberts said:

How did the original Elantrians come up with Aons?

Trial and Error.

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Most likely, the early Elantrians (who probably didn't even have Elantris back then) would have had to learn the Aons by trial and error, finding what each one did, and associating its meaning and sound with its effect. The language didn't develop, but was instead 'discovered.' [..] That is part of what makes writing a noble art in Arelon—drawing the Aons would have been associated with Elantrians.

 

[Hawkido]

@The One Who Connects

Actually there are several quotes I'm trying to find them all.  I have begun to notice that Brandon paints with shadow as much as with color.   Much like looking for asteroids, you don't always look for what you can see but rather what you cannot see but should be able to.  There are a few more quotes but can't seem to find them right now... *SIGH* finding quotes on the spot is sometimes difficult.

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Q: The fact that Odium has bested other shards implies he is more powerful. Is Odium inherently a more powerful shard or is it a matter of his nature?

Brandon: Both factors play a role.

Quote

MILLENNIUM

Some dictionaries list two meanings for the word "odium": the feeling of strong hatred, and that which provokes hatred from others. Do both of these apply to the Shard with that name?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes

Quote

ERICTH

What is Odium's edge. Vin and Ati killed each other but Rayse has downed 3 shards and survived. Was it skill, ability, numbers or possibly un-dispersed power?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Some combination of the above.

Rayse is especially deadly because his shard is "frightening and terrible" and because he is "loathsome, crafty, and dangerous" not because of any special power, but the power to both be hate and cause hate in a loop between you and your target, could cause the target shard holder to begin losing affinity with their shard, thus loosening their grip and making it easier to overwhelm them.

Feedback is a form of resonance.  If I hate you and I make you hate me and it is a vicious cycle that either weakens you or strengthens me (either way shifts the power balance in my favor) then I win.  Einstein is reported to have said "Compound interest is the most powerful force in the universe".  If he said that, I believe he was talking about gravity, but it would apply here as well.

[The One Who Connects]

@Hawkido I see what you mean now, mostly.
Regarding your WoB's, I was halfway right about what I remembered. Anyways, him being inherently more powerful should be because of him not investing, his nature could refer to Rayse's craftiness, but that's semantics. Skill and ability could refer to the fact that he's gained experience through "practice," un-dispersed power was already mentioned, numbers relates to the help Bavadin gave him "in some way."
I'm not equating the second one as the same category of answer as the other two though. Odium breeds hatred, D&D's people seem to have both devotion and an interest in dominion, Honorable people are involved with the KR, etc..

Additionally, if he has the power to cause others to feel hatred, then shouldn't the other Shards have the same ability with their own Intents? What would be stopping Honor from inspiring Odium to be honorable and question his actions? Or Preservation dulling Ruin's edge by making him feel more preservative(is this correct word usage?)

While that fits google's definition, I don't think a cycle like that fits with how Resonance is defined in the Cosmere.

[Dunkum]

51 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

He can't have learned about Hemalurgy from the Well b/c the Well is pure Preservation. Ruin whispered to TLR how to make those constructs while he was ascended, for his "plan." The Inquisitors did experiment, whether it was of their own accord or by TLR's orders we don't know, but they never actually got anywhere new, which Sazed took to be a testament to Hemalurgy's complexity.

I forgot the part where Ruin was whispering to him, which, yes, is his main source. that said there is a WoB (forgot to grab the link before I closed that tab) indicating that Hemalurgy predates allomancy, so evidently there is even more to it than I thought

[The One Who Connects]

8 minutes ago, Dunkum said:

I forgot the part where Ruin was whispering to him, which, yes, is his main source. that said there is a WoB (forgot to grab the link before I closed that tab) indicating that Hemalurgy predates allomancy, so evidently there is even more to it than I thought

Well, we know that Hemalurgy was technically known because of Alendi's "piercings of the Hero" (probably the WoB you are referring to)

Quote

Piercings, and Hemalurgy, were part of the world before the coming of Allomancy in its modern form. Then, they were seen as a means of communicating with deity—which, indeed, they were. Ruin manipulated this to make sure any Hero of Ages who came would be under his influence.

That said, Allomancy had to be known in some form during that time since Alendi was a Seeker. (I think there was a WoB saying that Alendi was one of the first Mistings, but i cannot find it on theoryland) Edit: Found it (its in the Annotations...)

Quote

Also, as a note, Alendi was an Allomancer, as the epigraph notes here. He had to be—he heard the pulsing at the Well of Ascension when nobody else could. [..] The legends say that Allomancy came with the Deepness. Alendi was one of the very first Allomancers, and he gained his powers as the mists began to cover the world.

 

Edited April 21, 2017 by The One Who Connects
found it

[Andy92]

3 hours ago, Figberts said:

How did the original Elantrians come up with Aons?

I ran across this earlier today when I was looking up Aons. What I remember seeing is that the Aons already existed and the Elantrians discovered the shapes by "trial and error." Now I'm sure there is some reason that they began this process because otherwise, you wouldn't search for something that you didn't even know was possible. I'm not too knowledgeable about the origins of old Elantrians before the book takes place. 

[Jondesu]

I posted this in another thread in response to a post by @Zennix, but here's a question:

Did adding gemstones to the dead Shardblades turn them into a type of fabrial, or at least trap the spren in a similar way?

[Darkness]

Before Nightblood was awakened and imbued with breath, was he different from a normal, steel sword? I mean, if I went and forged a sword on Nalthis, and then Vasher and Shashara decided to awaken it and command it to destroy evil, would it turn into basically the same thing as Nightblood?

Does Nightblood have a key command phrase like Vasher's squirrel or the lifeless?

Could Nightblood's original creator regain the breath from Nightblood like with other awakened objects? Would the breath be altered? Would there be more of it or of higher quality?

 

[Yata]

18 minutes ago, Darkness said:

Does Nightblood have a key command phrase like Vasher's squirrel or the lifeless?

Nightblood isn't a Lifeless class Entity. We know his Command and it not incorporate any kind of "key command".

19 minutes ago, Darkness said:

Could Nightblood's original creator regain the breath from Nightblood like with other awakened objects? Would the breath be altered? Would there be more of it or of higher quality?

This is debatable but you can't recover Breath from someone else and Nightblood is an actual being now. the Breath are not its own.

[Stark]

Lifeless are dead people who have had one, or more, Breath permanently re-annealed to their physical form.  With small maintenance (ichor-alcohol, minor repair) they are functional.  Shardsblades are 'dead' spren, bonded to a new "host" over the course of a week or longer, having the soul of a living person re-annealed to their physical form.  With small maintenance (the 10 heartbeats) they regain some of their previous function.

In Lifeless, especially well made ones, you can see some of the person the used to be.  Skills and such, and there were some hints at more with Clod.  In Shardblades, if you bring them into contact with someone who is bonding a living spren, you get some mentally scarring evidence that the original personality may still be locked in the 'corpse'.

Am I crazy to be drawing parallels between the Lifeless and dead spren shardblades?

And as a follow up, is it even crazier to think Nightblood might be a Lifeless Spren?  You can never recover the investiture spent creating a lifeless, and nothing comes out of Night blood.

***Just noticed that the post above me is commenting on the same thought process.  And apparently there is a thread dedicated to Nightblood being an awakened shardblade.  So I'm a little embarassed, but I'm not going to delete this part of my question.  I'm just not going to expand on it further than this.***

 

For the lifeless/shard parallel, in both cases, without some form of bonding, the body does lie there inert.  In the case of the spren, it is far more overtly dangerous, as the corpse is an edged weapon.  It is really difficult for an organic corpse to be that inherently and immediately dangerous.  I'm more looking at the functions regained by the awakening and bonding process.  Are those parallels crazy?

[Hawkido]

On 4/21/2017 at 6:08 PM, The One Who Connects said:

While that fits google's definition, I don't think a cycle like that fits with how Resonance is defined in the Cosmere.

that is why i initially used the word feedback loop.

The Definition of Honor does not imply that it inspires honor in others.  It is not an intrinsic attribute in Honor, Preservation, Ruin, etc... to project its attribute upon another, however Odium, is both the transmitter and the receiver of its primary attribute (hatred).  And Brandon is quoted as stating that both apply to Odium the Shard.  If Love is one of the shards then it would MOST likely do the same, Love and Be Loved.  Someone Might Honor you because you are Honorable, but that won't make them Honorable.

[Djarskublar]

If Ashravan became an Awakener, could Gaotona use the Emperor's stamp to Forge himself enough to withdraw Breaths from things Ashravan has awakened? If so, could Vasher stamp himself to be Nightblood and withdraw the Breath from Nightblood?

[Fezzik]

Does a metalmind being "full" have to do with volume or mass? We know bigger metalminds hold more charge, is that consistent across metals? (Physical density is mass/volume, is investiture density investiture/volume and is there a mathematical relationship between the two? A denser metal holds more investiture or less?)

[BlackYeti]

1 hour ago, Djarskublar said:

If Ashravan became an Awakener, could Gaotona use the Emperor's stamp to Forge himself enough to withdraw Breaths from things Ashravan has awakened? If so, could Vasher stamp himself to be Nightblood and withdraw the Breath from Nightblood?

I'm pretty sure that this is impossible. There's no way that the Emperor's stamp would take in Gaotona. Granted, Shai was able to forge a small part of his soul to resemble the Emperor's for about a minute, but that's a very different proposition from changing his entire soul to match the Emperor's.

And as for Vasher forging himself to become Nightblood, that would surely be even more implausible: Vasher isn't a sword! Also since Nightblood isn't an Awakener, I'm doubtful that Vasher would be able to recover Nightblood's breath even if he somehow did manage it.

[Djarskublar]

Just now, BlackYeti said:

I'm pretty sure that this is impossible. There's no way that the Emperor's stamp would take in Gaotona. Granted, Shai was able to forge a small part of his soul to resemble the Emperor's for about a minute, but that's a very different proposition from changing his entire soul to match the Emperor's.

And as for Vasher forging himself to become Nightblood, that would surely be even more implausible: Vasher isn't a sword! Also since Nightblood isn't an Awakener, I'm doubtful that Vasher would be able to recover Nightblood's breath even if he somehow did manage it.

You just have to Forge yourself close enough to have the same Identity, not be completely the same, though I see where you are coming from. The stamp doesn't need to take for long, just long enough to say 'your Breath to mine,' so that helps.

[BlackYeti]

2 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

You just have to Forge yourself close enough to have the same Identity, not be completely the same, though I see where you are coming from. The stamp doesn't need to take for long, just long enough to say 'your Breath to mine,' so that helps.

Well, far be it for me to attempt to stifle creativity. I still don't think that the Emperor's stamp would work, but it might be possible to craft a stamp which would have that effect.

I think it would be easier to achieve it with Haemalurgy however. 

[ccstat]

8 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

If Ashravan became an Awakener, could Gaotona use the Emperor's stamp to Forge himself enough to withdraw Breaths from things Ashravan has awakened?

I really like this line of questioning. As an intermediate data point, it could be useful to ask whether Shai's various incarnations (Shaizan, etc.) could recover each other's breath.  This answer is most likely yes, but it would help establish a baseline for the tolerances for dissimilarity.

[Yata]

9 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

You just have to Forge yourself close enough to have the same Identity, not be completely the same, though I see where you are coming from. The stamp doesn't need to take for long, just long enough to say 'your Breath to mine,' so that helps.

It think it's impossible because also Forging yourself into something else would not change your Identity. Sure we don't actual know how the Identity is "generated" but if the Identity is an intrinsec Soul's attribute, your will not change also if the Spirit-Web changes.
But it's an interesting point so maybe you could create a new topic about...the discussion will be long

Edited April 26, 2017 by Yata