Interesting Question about Elantris Magics

[Arrowlyn]

So, the answer to this may very well be, "there is no possible way we could know that". But in my recent reread of Elantris, I thought of a rather interesting question.

I could be wrong, but I believe a lot of people believe that the Reod was caused by Odium's visit to Sel, when he killed Aona and Skai. The question is this: If Odium's murder of Aona caused the Reod (indirectly, of course, via the earthquake) what was the effect on the magic users of Skai? Was there one? Or is Skai's magic not tied to the earth so closely.

I was also curious if anyone has any interesting quote from Brandon about Seons. My other theory was that the Reod was merely caused by the earthquake and Aona and Skai were actually killed long before the events of Elantris (has Brandon ever given a timeline?). In this case, I think the Seons and Skaze being the results of Aona and Skai's splintered state is (IMO) something worth considering. If each of them were a piece of the Shard, that would explain why it would be impossible for them to be reassembled, as Hoid seems to imply they are...

Anyway, just thought I'd share my crazy mental wanderings. Please let me know if I've got anything way off, or have other thoughts, etc.

[Chaos]

I was also curious if anyone has any interesting quote from Brandon about Seons. My other theory was that the Reod was merely caused by the earthquake and Aona and Skai were actually killed long before the events of Elantris (has Brandon ever given a timeline?). In this case, I think the Seons and Skaze being the results of Aona and Skai's splintered state is (IMO) something worth considering. If each of them were a piece of the Shard, that would explain why it would be impossible for them to be reassembled, as Hoid seems to imply they are...

Anyway, just thought I'd share my crazy mental wanderings. Please let me know if I've got anything way off, or have other thoughts, etc.

I am still utterly convinced that eons ago, before Hero of Ages, Brandon had said that the Reod was just an earthquake. Nothing special going on there.

I'm definitely on board with the idea that Aona and Skai were killed long before the events of Elantris. That seems a lot more reasonable, really.

As for Splinters and Seons and Skaze... a lot of people like to think they are Splinters, surely. It's kind of hard to say they are, considering we don't have a working definition of what it means to be a Splinter in the first place. I do know that Brandon is keeping the secret of how Seons are created until a sequel comes out.

[happyman]

I am still utterly convinced that eons ago, before Hero of Ages, Brandon had said that the Reod was just an earthquake. Nothing special going on there.

I'm definitely on board with the idea that Aona and Skai were killed long before the events of Elantris. That seems a lot more reasonable, really.

As for Splinters and Seons and Skaze... a lot of people like to think they are Splinters, surely. It's kind of hard to say they are, considering we don't have a working definition of what it means to be a Splinter in the first place. I do know that Brandon is keeping the secret of how Seons are created until a sequel comes out.

Add me to the people that think that Aona and Skai died ages before the Reod. It seems to me that in Shardworlds with active Shards, the people tend to know who they are. For example, the Terris knew about Preservation and Ruin while both were active, the epithet "Three gods!" appears in one of Dalinar's visions of the past, which tallies with what we know about the active shards there, some knowledge of the Almighty persisted even through to the time of WoK, all the people in Warbreaker world (forget the name) seem to know something about Endowment, even as they call it different names, etc.

[leinton]

I believe Brandon once defined the Skaze as evil Seons? That's why I think that they are splinters of Aona and Skai.

[TheFinisher4Ever]

I remember the whole "evil Seons" thing as well. The names are also too darn similar to not be related to the shards somehow. Whether they are splinters, the mind or body of the shards, or something we have never seen before, I'm sure they are related to them.

[Andrew the Great]

I'm also of the opinion that Aona and Skaze were dead for a while before the Reod, though I admit that it's possible that Odium caused the Reod.

In answer to your original question, unless users of Skai's magic systems are somehow tied directly to Arelon in the same way that Aona's magic users are, they probably didn't see too many major effects. However, if the Reod was a result of Odium's visit, it seems quite likely that Skai's magic users had a similar event. In the end, however, as you say, we just don't have enough information to say for sure.

[Zas678]

I've got a question then. Do the magic systems match that of Mistborn? In other words, are there two 'sponsored' magic systems (Aona for Aons and Skaze for the Dahkor monks), and one 'neutral' magic system (ClayShan).

I guess another way to ask it is, Are Dahkor months of Aona? Or of Skaze?

[Arrowlyn]

I've got a question then. Do the magic systems match that of Mistborn? In other words, are there two 'sponsored' magic systems (Aona for Aons and Skaze for the Dahkor monks), and one 'neutral' magic system (ClayShan).

I guess another way to ask it is, Are Dahkor months of Aona? Or of Skaze?

I think we're assuming that Elantrians are associated with Aona because of the similarity in names (though it is possible that Brandon confirmed this somewhere; I think it's pretty obvious). Aons, AonDor, Aona, all seem related. Seons, to a lesser extent. Then, on the other hand, you have Skaze, which Brandon has called evil Seons and Dilaf mentioned them by name in the end of Elantris. I think it is safe to assume that Dahkor monks are associated with Skaze, and Skaze is associated with Skai (or at least, his shard).

Personally, I think it is likely that the Elantris magics mirror the Mistborn ones.

Allomancy=AonDor

Hemelurgy=(Whatever the Dahkor's magic is called. I know I've heard it before, I just can't call it to mind right now...)

Feruchemy=ClayShan (I think this correlation is strongly supported by what we've seen of the physical element required in ClayShan. It seems to focus on the individual and concentration, rather than channeling an external force, as the other two seem to...)

Please jump in and correct me if I got anything wrong!

[Chaos]

I've got a question then. Do the magic systems match that of Mistborn? In other words, are there two 'sponsored' magic systems (Aona for Aons and Skaze for the Dahkor monks), and one 'neutral' magic system (ClayShan).

I guess another way to ask it is, Are Dahkor months of Aona? Or of Skaze?

I think it's fairly clear that the Dahkor are related to the Skaze, and thus, related to Skai.

I don't know if ClayShan is a good symmetry with Feruchemy. Correct me if I'm wrong (it has been a long time since I've read Elantris), but didn't ClayShan enhance ...that guy. It enhanced his own prowess. The energy didn't come from himself, per se, but it merely flowed into him. Correct me if I'm wrong on that note, and ignore the paragraphs below if I've made an error here.

If ClayShan was in fact the "balance" between Aona and Skai, then similar to Feruchemy, you're utilizing both Shards' powers equally. But what's the proper focus? Unlike on Scadrial, the focuses on Sel change. There aren't a finite number of symbols, and indeed, Aons can change with the landscape. So this is rather problematic for ClayShan. The Dahkor focus seems less related to the land and more related to the body. Does the Dahkor bonework symbols actually shift in time like the Aons? I don't know. But a distinction between Aons and Dahkor is interesting, because if they are "different" focuses, well, that opens up a whole new realm of thinking, really.

I'd surmise that there's no inherent reason why Shards on the same planet must share focuses. I mean, Ruin and Preservation did, but Shards don't need to come in pairs. (For example, do Honor, Odium, and Cultivation have to share a focus? I would imagine not.) Though in Skai and Aona's case, the importance of symbols is suspicious, and suggests that they do share a focus. But either way, it's interesting that the Aons can change over time.

So what's the deal with ClayShan? How does the symbol focuses work in that case?

[leinton]

Yes, ClayShan enhanced Shuden. I was thinking about this this morning, and I wonder. Maybe the Dor is directly related to Aona? My thought on this is that maybe Aona powers AonDor and ClayShan, one through the land and the other through... something else. Maybe motion or exercise or something like that. Now, the next bit is entirely guesswork. What if the Dakhor magics, powered by Skai, are actually power stolen from Aona? What if Skai's shard has something to do with theft?

[Arrowlyn]

What if the Dakhor magics, powered by Skai, are actually power stolen from Aona? What if Skai's shard has something to do with theft?

That might make sense. When the Dahkor transported from Arelon to Teod they 'used up' one of the monks-seemingly as a power source or something. I could definitely see Skai's shard having to do with taking things away, or theft, even if it isn't always directly from Aona. There is also the fact that Dilaf says he gained the power to negate Aons through the sacrifice of 50 men. In my opinion, it seems very similar to Hemelurgy in this way, even if there is not a direct correlation between all the Elantris and Mistborn magics. I'd be willing to bet that whatever causes the Dahkor's bones to change (and form symbols, from which, I would assume, they get their power), there is some sort of physical sacrifice involved. It might not always require someone's life, but I would think that the great the power you want, the greater the sacrifice required. Just extrapolating from Dilaf's comments here...

In my opinion, we just don't have enough to work with regarding ClayShan. The only things I can say about it are that focus and precise movements of the body seem to be important. Is it possible that a person is using their own body to form some sort of Aonic symbol? *shrug*

[CrazyRioter]

That might make sense. When the Dahkor transported from Arelon to Teod they 'used up' one of the monks-seemingly as a power source or something. I could definitely see Skai's shard having to do with taking things away, or theft, even if it isn't always directly from Aona. There is also the fact that Dilaf says he gained the power to negate Aons through the sacrifice of 50 men. In my opinion, it seems very similar to Hemelurgy in this way, even if there is not a direct correlation between all the Elantris and Mistborn magics. I'd be willing to bet that whatever causes the Dahkor's bones to change (and form symbols, from which, I would assume, they get their power), there is some sort of physical sacrifice involved. It might not always require someone's life, but I would think that the great the power you want, the greater the sacrifice required. Just extrapolating from Dilaf's comments here...

In my opinion, we just don't have enough to work with regarding ClayShan. The only things I can say about it are that focus and precise movements of the body seem to be important. Is it possible that a person is using their own body to form some sort of Aonic symbol? *shrug*

I was actually thinking the same thing, about the ClayShan users forming symbols with their own bodies. you beat me to it.

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

Well, the Elantrians have a good dose of power, yeah? Well, the Dakhor magic could be using the pieces of Shard power in people to accomplish something similar, using symbols for magic. But it also seems that the sacrifices accomplish a lot more than what Elantrians can do, just requiring enormous sacrifice.

I'm also putting forward Sacrifice as Skai's Shard name if it hasn't already been mentioned.

[Puck]

1) First thing: it's ChayShan, not "ClayShan"

2)

I remember the whole "evil Seons" thing as well. The names are also too darn similar to not be related to the shards somehow. Whether they are splinters, the mind or body of the shards, or something we have never seen before, I'm sure they are related to them.

It only just struck me how similar Seons are to [some] spren. There might be something there.

3)

I guess another way to ask it is, Are Dahkor months of Aona? Or of Skaze?

zas, this is a question that I've wrestled with for a while. Really, I think the answer hinges on us clarifying the difference between two different (similar, but very different) relationships: magic user:Shard and magic user:Creation.

(I just started writing down my outline to this, but it's turning into several pages, so I'll save it for its own post)

4)

But what's the proper focus? Unlike on Scadrial, the focuses on Sel change. There aren't a finite number of symbols, and indeed, Aons can change with the landscape. So this is rather problematic for ClayShan. The Dahkor focus seems less related to the land and more related to the body. Does the Dahkor bonework symbols actually shift in time like the Aons? I don't know. But a distinction between Aons and Dahkor is interesting, because if they are "different" focuses, well, that opens up a whole new realm of thinking, really.

...Though in Skai and Aona's case, the importance of symbols is suspicious, and suggests that they do share a focus. But either way, it's interesting that the Aons can change over time.

So what's the deal with ClayShan? How does the symbol focuses work in that case?

That might make sense. When the Dahkor transported from Arelon to Teod they 'used up' one of the monks-seemingly as a power source or something. I could definitely see Skai's shard having to do with taking things away, or theft, even if it isn't always directly from Aona. There is also the fact that Dilaf says he gained the power to negate Aons through the sacrifice of 50 men. In my opinion, it seems very similar to Hemelurgy in this way, even if there is not a direct correlation between all the Elantris and Mistborn magics. I'd be willing to bet that whatever causes the Dahkor's bones to change (and form symbols, from which, I would assume, they get their power), there is some sort of physical sacrifice involved. It might not always require someone's life, but I would think that the great the power you want, the greater the sacrifice required. Just extrapolating from Dilaf's comments here...

In my opinion, we just don't have enough to work with regarding ClayShan. The only things I can say about it are that focus and precise movements of the body seem to be important. Is it possible that a person is using their own body to form some sort of Aonic symbol? *shrug*

Again, the outline for my response just reached two pages, so I'll try and do a second post for this

5)

Well, the Elantrians have a good dose of power, yeah? Well, the Dakhor magic could be using the pieces of Shard power in people to accomplish something similar, using symbols for magic. But it also seems that the sacrifices accomplish a lot more than what Elantrians can do, just requiring enormous sacrifice.

I'm also putting forward Sacrifice as Skai's Shard name if it hasn't already been mentioned.

I personally don't think Skai would be Sacrifice, for a few reasons

(a ) Brandon added in the sacrificial aspect as kind of an afterthought:

I added in teleportation. It ended up working out very well in the book, as it let me add another dimension to the Dakhor magic—that of having it cost a life to create some of its effects. (Ch 60.3 Annotation)

:While this in no way means the Brandon can't change his mind and make sacrifice a more integral aspect of FjorDor, it is telling.

(b ) I feel like it's not as basic an intent as the other Shards...

(c ) ...especially since there would be some serious overlap with Endowment.

It seems to me that the 16 Aspects are all going to be very different parts that together make one balanced Adonal (or whatever). I could see it being something related to Discipline, or Order (things that sacrifice fold into).

There's no smoking gun here. It all just adds up to a feeling on my end

Edited March 5, 2011 by Puck