Defining 'focus'

[Odium's_Shard]

I'm sure that burning the tapered bar, you would have to burn from one end to another. Slowly you would get more and more sick if ever you could keep burning it til you broke through til the other side and got less and less sick til you get to the other metal.

 

Was it shown that a mix of two Allomantic metals still makes you sick though? If not... the effects of this bar or other composites would be most interesting.

[Senor Feesh]

It's an interesting one. I guess it's worth asking Brandon how an alloy of two focus metals would behave, allomantically and feruchemically.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I'm sure that burning the tapered bar, you would have to burn from one end to another. Slowly you would get more and more sick if ever you could keep burning it til you broke through til the other side and got less and less sick til you get to the other metal.

 

Yeah but you've swallowed the whole bar.  Which end do you start burning on?

 

I chose the 'copper to tin gradiant' because you've got an allomantic metal on each end and in the middle.  If a mistborn swallows the bar, does he see one reserve, three reserves, or what?

 

(manufacturing wise, yeah, difficult.  One way: take a alloyed bar, heat and centrifuge it to start separating metals, then flash cool with liquid nitrogen.)

[Isomere]

Again, the alignment of three holes and a water source press down on them.

If you have a metal, that is or is not Allomantically sound, and not the spiritual permissions, nothing happens.

If you have spiritual permissions to burn any metal, but it doesn't correlate with the Allomantic ones, then something happens to you to make you very sick.

If it slightly aligns, power still trickles through. And makes you sick.

Mistborns sDNA compared to Misting, is probably the same 'segments' that allow to channel each individually. Because Mistings aren't more powerful, this means that they have the same potential as a Mistborn in just one metal, they have 1/16th of the sDNA. They have, say, a 'Steel marker', a hole, that allows Power to flow through into the Physical Realm.

Odi's idea of permissions is very interesting. It's pretty clear that something needs to happen to give access, but I call this "Identity Attunement" rather than spiritual permission. I don't see this permission as something the Shard can give or revoke, it's just the way the realmatics interact. It seems the combination of planet, Shard, and human interact in such a way that certain prequisites must be met in a person's Soul before the power of creation can be accessed. On Scadrial, snapping requires someone to be "Brought to the brink of Death/Ruin" and then "Fight to Preserve their own Life" before their Identity is attuned. On Roshar it deals with the concept of character transformation, where "Honorable Actions and Intent" over time cause a persons Identity to "Grow closer to the Almighty". On Nalthis the proper Identity is "Freely Given" to everyone. Each magic system has an Attunement process that links the person's Identity with the Shard's intent.

How then does a focus relate with the attuned Soul? They both seem to form a conduit. We have direct quotes from Brandon talking about a human soul getting troughs ripped through it as it acts as a conduit that restricts and shapes the power. We have a very similar discussion about how a focus works as a conduit to shape and restrict the power. I would argue then that the persons Soul actually IS one of the focus components in a magic system, and it only works as a focus if it has the right pattern contained within it. The process of developing that pattern in your soul is what I term Identity Attunement.

[Odium's_Shard]

This is very interesting Isomere! I like this. What then, under this difference, wherein the Shard cannot affect this process, do we differentiate between Misting and Mistborn, between the different Orders? What determines someones role if they are 'Aligned' in this way? Also, why can you access one metal or all? If this could be explained away by 'Lerasium injects people with Allomantic potential' if it were diluted, there would be gradiated forms. 

 

Also, does this system assume one already has 'potential' that is Snapped or developed into permissions. If so, where does this base potential come from? On Scadrial it seems to be the living essence of Preservation shaping souls, that must then Snap. But this belies Shardic interference. This means the Shard CAN give it, though it seems hard to revoke.

[Senor Feesh]

Forgive me not digging the quote up right away, but we have WoB that you don't get gradiation with different levels of Preservation in your sDNA.

At a specific level of Preservation you get Mistings, then nothing but Mistings until you hit a certain higher threshold where you get Mistborn. At a still higher level you get Well of Ascension power, which is very close to a full Shard.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Forgive me not digging the quote up right away, but we have WoB that you don't get gradiation with different levels of Preservation in your sDNA.

At a specific level of Preservation you get Mistings, then nothing but Mistings until you hit a certain higher threshold where you get Mistborn. At a still higher level you get Well of Ascension power, which is very close to a full Shard.

Well, not exactly. 

 

http://www.brandonsanderson.com/annotation/318/mistborn-3-Chapter-Forty-Nine-Part-2

The Sliding Scale of Allomantic Potential

Noblemen, despite what Spook says in this chapter, are not immune to the mistsickness. The rumor Spook is referencing does have merit, however. You see, since the mists are Snapping people and awakening the Allomantic potential within them, it will affect far fewer noblemen than skaa. Why? Because a lot of the noblemen have already Snapped. They were beaten as children to bring out the powers.

However, that won�t stop all of them from being affected by the mistsickness, because the mistsickness is also awakening Allomantic potential that would otherwise be too subtle to be brought out. Pretend there�s a sliding scale of Allomantic potential. 100% means you�re an Allomancer—in this series, only two people have hit 100%—Vin and Elend. Buried within a lot of people, however, is enough of a touch of Preservation�s power to hit, say, 50% on the relative scale of Allomantic power. These people, when beaten and made to pass through something traumatic, awaken to their Allomantic abilities.

There are a lot of people out there, however, with something more like 20% to 30%. These are the people the mists are Snapping—since the mists are, themselves, partially the power of Preservation, they can touch people and increase their Allomantic potential slightly and then bring it to the forefront

 

That's why Elend is a super strong mistborn. 

[Isomere]

You bring up a lot of good points, especially about this comment of mine: "I don't see this permission as something the Shard can give or revoke, it's just the way the realmatics interact." As you showed well, shards can definitely affect the process. I'm suggesting that Attunement may not be directly under the shards control, and is more complicated that simply granting permission. It's an interaction between the Shards intent, the persons soul and the planet they are born on.

Now it's pretty clear that a shard can influence a person to help them use magic, but I see at least two ways for that to happen. One way is through Identity. The mist sickness seems to be a way to force a situation where someone must fight to Preserve their own life. I believe this experience changes their Identity, creating a pattern in the Soul that forms a link to Preservation. Lerasium can even change normally permanent parts of the identity like sDNA to create a perfect Attunement. I'd suggest that a part of the Soul is created based on sDNA at an Allomantic Potential gene. There are multiple alleles of the gene that code for various strengths of Mistborn and the mistings, but burning Lerasium overwrites this with the ideal code sequence. The more you alter from the ideal code the weaker the Allomantic potential. Everyone on scadrial is born with an Allomancy gene that determines their ability (or lack thereof), but the power is dormant until a link to Preservation is formed in their Identity through snapping.

Investiture is the other way a shard can help a person use magic. This basically boils down to granting a fragment of Adonalsium to the person. Everyone on Scadrial is born with Investiture from both Ruin and Preservation, but some have more than others. The amount of investiture influences how easy it is to snap, and being infused with the mists temporarily increases your total investiture and allows you to snap more easily.

[Shardlet]

It's an interesting one. I guess it's worth asking Brandon how an alloy of two focus metals would behave, allomantically and feruchemically.

 

There are, two allomantic alloys which are formed from two allomantic base metals.  Bronze (copper and tin) and brass (copper and zinc).  Let's assume one of these as the basis for this inquiry.  Allomantically, it would simply be an alloy brass or bronze.  I suppose the overall effect would be determined by:

1) What is the compositional percentage of the alloy?

2) How pure a base metal must be to be allomantically sound?

3) What is the allomantic composition for brass/bronze?

4) How close must an alloy composition be to the allomantic alloy composition to be viable for use?

 

Condition 2 applies also for metals which together are not used to make an allomantic alloy (chromium, aluminum, iron, etc.).

 

In other words if the mixture of, say, tin and copper is close enough to the allomantic bronze composition, then it would burn like brass with weaker strength and probably give you a headache or worse.

 

If it is a mixture of aluminum and chromium then, unless the amount of tin was low enough to make the alloy viable as impure chromium, the also a headache and weak power at best.

 

If it is outside that range, then it would either be unburnable, as some have argued, or kill you since you could burn any metal and bad metals will smack you. I can't think of any reason why the fact that both metals are by themselves viable would save you.

[Odium's_Shard]

Depends whether or not its been tried. But I think its pretty safe to assume there are only 16 metals if those are what the upper bound of discovery has been in so long (but then again, they believed ten for a long time).

 

Also it was interesting to think Feruchemically. Would it be like trying to store into a brick, or does it make Sazed sick as well? What causes the sickness. If it didn't make Sazed sick, surely it would have been much safer for Sazed to test metals than Vin?

[Shardlet]

I think it is important to note that the knowledge of at least 4 of the remaining 16 metals was suppressed by TLR.  At the very end of HoA, Sazed informs Spook that there are two more metals that are so far not known (bringing the total to 16).  Unless there were other metals that Sazed felt would be very bad for them to be known, I would expect that Sazed would have indicated more.  Also if there were metals that Sazed intended to remain unknown, I would expect he would have given Spook more specific information on the remaining two metals he indicated.  FYI, Sazed said (paraphrasing), "By the way, Spook, there are two more metals out there and I think that you'll think they're pretty rockin'."

[Meg]

I dare toss in another point, though it's might not be important for the question in this thread (Defining Focus): 

 

Reading the AoL-Ars Arcanum on the three metal arts I was kind of surprised that the same focus can have different tasks. 

 

Allomancy ... The key to drawing power comes from the form of various types of metals ... The metal is a catalyst ... that begins an Investiture and keeps it running. 

... this isn't much different from the form-based Investitures one finds on Sel, where specific shape is the key. ...

Feruchemy ... also requires metal as a focus, but instead of being consumed, the metal acts as a medium ... 

source: AoL-Ars Arcanum

 

For Hemalurgy there's nothing said but the focus surely is the metal too, that kind of keeps what is taken from one person to be given to another.

 

I think we should have this in mind while trying to define what a focus is. 

[Odium's_Shard]

The idea of a medium is nice. In a way, the metal is a medium too, upon which the Spiritual power is transferred, and then the metal is consumed. Its important I think to note the comparison to Investiture on Sel being similar in its form-based nature. 

 

Probably a reference to the atomic structure being key, or allowing a power tranfer through a 'window' of form. Might be important in this definition. Either way, nice pick up! This quote is definitely of import in this discussion.

[Senor Feesh]

Well, not exactly. 

http://www.brandonsanderson.com/annotation/318/mistborn-3-Chapter-Forty-Nine-Part-2

The Sliding Scale of Allomantic Potential

Noblemen, despite what Spook says in this chapter, are not immune to the mistsickness. The rumor Spook is referencing does have merit, however. You see, since the mists are Snapping people and awakening the Allomantic potential within them, it will affect far fewer noblemen than skaa. Why? Because a lot of the noblemen have already Snapped. They were beaten as children to bring out the powers.

However, that won�t stop all of them from being affected by the mistsickness, because the mistsickness is also awakening Allomantic potential that would otherwise be too subtle to be brought out. Pretend there�s a sliding scale of Allomantic potential. 100% means you�re an Allomancer—in this series, only two people have hit 100%—Vin and Elend. Buried within a lot of people, however, is enough of a touch of Preservation�s power to hit, say, 50% on the relative scale of Allomantic power. These people, when beaten and made to pass through something traumatic, awaken to their Allomantic abilities.

There are a lot of people out there, however, with something more like 20% to 30%. These are the people the mists are Snapping—since the mists are, themselves, partially the power of Preservation, they can touch people and increase their Allomantic potential slightly and then bring it to the forefront

 

 

That's why Elend is a super strong mistborn.

 

Very well, I'll rephrase. The sliding scale of Allomancy doesn't allow a gradiated access to number of metals. From the quote above, I'd assume you go from 'Max strength Misting' to 'Minimum strength Mistborn' if you ever went over the tipping point of Investiture.

 

Darn, I can't seem to find the quote now, but I'm positive there was one that states explicitly that (hemalurgy notwithstanding) you're either a Misting or a Mistborn; there's no middle ground.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Darn, I can't seem to find the quote now, but I'm positive there was one that states explicitly that (hemalurgy notwithstanding) you're either a Misting or a Mistborn; there's no middle ground.

 

Oh, yeah, that's indeed the case.  But I'm not convinced that it's 'above this threshold you're automatically a mistborn' - as straff demonstrated, a misting crossed with someone who has too little power to even snap can still produce a mistborn.

 

 

Both of these quotes are from Blackharp at the same signing - they aren't verbatim.

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2772-chicago-qa-signing-report/

Q: In Mistborn, why is it that an allowancer either has just one metal, or is Mistborn and has ALL? Why aren't there any that have just two, or three?

A: Originally he had planned so that people would only have one metal, period. No mistborns. And then as he went along with the writing he liked this idea, but he really wanted to make some more powerful allomancers, which is why he created the Mistborn. He did say though that if you are playing the RPG, you are more than welcome to have an allomancer that can burn two metals without Hemalurgy.

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2759-non-mistborn-allomancers-who-can-burn-multiple-metals/

I had asked him about the 1 or all metals question while he was signing, and he said that there is no canonical way to burn more than one type of metal without being Mistborn or involving Hemalurgy. When he was originally writing Mistborn he had it so that people could only burn one metal, period. No mistborns. And then a he was writing he wanted to have some characters be obviously more powerful and the Mistborns were, well, born.

[Senor Feesh]

Oh, yeah, that's indeed the case.  But I'm not convinced that it's 'above this threshold you're automatically a mistborn' - as straff demonstrated, a misting crossed with someone who has too little power to even snap can still produce a mistborn.

 

 

damnation, could have sworn I read that somewhere. I'll keep hunting.

 

As to your point, I can see a way that could work in keeping with my unconfirmed quote, although it is a stretch maybe - if a Misting just below the Mistborn threshold mated with a non-allomancer who's very close to the Misting threshold, and the child is lucky enough to get all the Investiture carrying genes (sGenes?) passed down, it would push them over that tipping point. As I said, probably a stretch, but viable.

 

On the other hand, I do kind of like the idea others have posted whereby the specific coding of your sDNA confirms which metals you can use to access, and the amount of Investiture you have controls how much you can channel at once. Does make it harder to qualify why there are no dual-metal Mistings sans hemalurgy though without some arbitrariness of 'no sDNA of this kind exists/can exist'.

[Isomere]

On the other hand, I do kind of like the idea others have posted whereby the specific coding of your sDNA confirms which metals you can use to access, and the amount of Investiture you have controls how much you can channel at once. Does make it harder to qualify why there are no dual-metal Mistings sans hemalurgy though without some arbitrariness of 'no sDNA of this kind exists/can exist'.

 

Theory: The same pattern contained in the molecular structure of the metal must be mirrored in the Allomancer's soul before they can access the associated Power of Creation.

 

I have been theorizing above that there are patterns contained within an Allomancer's soul that function similar to Aons, creating a link to Preservation. Once that pattern is created through snapping they gain access to the dormant Allomantic potential buried within them. The reason the metals are important is because of a pattern formed by their molecular structure which links them to a particular Wavelength of the Power of Creation. What if this dormant allomantic potential was nothing more than sDNA that triggers the creation of an identical pattern inside the Allomancer's soul? 

 

I don't have a good reason you can't access more than one metal without gaining all of the powers, but let's assume there is only one small location in the soul that allows allomantic patterns to form. Perhaps most people have fixed patterns there, but mistborn can change the pattern at will. Or perhaps there is an "adonalsium pattern" that simply includes all the other patterns combined into a perfect whole. 

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I don't have a good reason you can't access more than one metal without gaining all of the powers, but let's assume there is only one small location in the soul that allows allomantic patterns to form. Perhaps most people have fixed patterns there, but mistborn can change the pattern at will. Or perhaps there is an "adonalsium pattern" that simply includes all the other patterns combined into a perfect whole. 

 

That's essentially the same as my 'misting amplifier' idea.