Joel is a Rithmatist (spoilers)

[tipbruley]

Well if you have read the whole book, you might think I just missed the part where he fails the ceremony to become a Rithmatist. However, thinking about it a little more, I think that seeing the being of light was enough to make Joel a Rithmatist.  No one talked about the ceremony so he couldn't discover it until later!

 

We all know that drawing Rithmatic figures requires intent from the Rithmatist to actually take on any properties. You see this illustrated by the lack of  mysterious symbol that blocks out sound. This was explained by the lack of knowing what the symbol does. Fitch also explains why this causes it to fail

 

"...believe that a Rithmatic line functions based on the Rithmatist;s goals in drawing it...nothing comes to life unless we are explicitly trying to do a Rithmatic drawing.

 

OK so now we need to see if Joel was ever attempting to do a Rithmatic drawing after that encounter.

 

First he does the test with Melody. After he draws the line, he says that he knows it won't work. He didn't believe that he had become a Rithmatist and thus he never had intent and desire to draw a Rithmatic line

 

"Melody reached out with her anxious hand, but Joel knew what would happen"

 

Also, when he is drawing in the arena he isn't trying to draw Rithmatic structures. He is just trying to outline what Melody will draw.

 

 

Let me know your thoughts on this  one guys

 

-Trey

[Topomouse]

Uhm, it's possible, but I think it's unlikely.

While it's highly probable that Joel will use rithmatich powers before the end of the series, I think it would be kind of dull if he started doing it just because someone convincend him he could. I think we can expect something more interesting from Brandon.

Apart from this metagame-like reason, we know that in order to create a Rithmatist you need to bind something called Shadowblaze to a person. If the living graffiti Joel saw is the Shadowblaze, I think we can agree that it didn't seem to be boud to him, more like the exact opposite.

Then again, now that I think about it, leading us to believe that that thing was a Shadowblaze while it isn't is a very Brandon thing to do. So maybe you are right.

Still I propend for the no.

[theofficetroll]

Nalizar said something about wondering why "they" didn't want Joel. As he can tell the difference between Rithmatists and non-Rithmatists, this reads as a pretty definite indication that Joel is not a Rithmatist at this time. But, he will keep looking for alternative sources of power, I'm sure.

[Arcanist Lupus]

Nalizar said something about wondering why "they" didn't want Joel. As he can tell the difference between Rithmatists and non-Rithmatists, this reads as a pretty definite indication that Joel is not a Rithmatist at this time. But, he will keep looking for alternative sources of power, I'm sure.

What he said.

 

Also,  Joel's meeting with the ShadowBlaze (assuming, of course, that that is what it was) was not nearly impactful enough to generate the reactions of the Rithmatists.  Even atheist Rithmatists don't speak of what happened to them in the chamber.  I don't think Joel's experience was enough to generate that response in every Rithmatist.  Therefore, I conclude that something else happens in the chamber to make you a Rithmatist.

[Shardlet]

I think it is very compelling that Joel saw the Shadowblaze.  I also think Nalizar's comments about Joel are very compelling and clearly indicate that Joel is not a Rithmatist (yet?).  But, his words also indicate that Joel is someone very special and important.  It is clear from Melody's ability with Chalklings (I think hers deserve a capital "C") that she also is special and important.  The two of them together have shown to be a very formidable team.  I think that Joel will eventually have Rithmatic ability.  His chalklings are poor enough that I suspect he and Melody will continue to be a team (even more formidable with Joel being able to handle the basic lines with precision while Melody focuses on crazy powerful Chalklings).  But I don't think he will gain the abilities until the climax or just before the climax of the next book at the earliest.  In fact, I think Book 3 is more likely.

[Crysanja]

i think the only reason Joel didnt become a rithmatist is, that he carried a clockwork coin while in the testing-camber.

guess the Shadowblaze would have moved into the body of Joel or made some other simbiotic bound with him, but the clockwork scarred it away.

 

usualy Shadowblazes dont get scarred away in the testings, because 8 year olds dont carry clockwork gold coins.

maybe it is just the running clockwork of the clockwork coin - Joel did wind it up before.

 

HIs friends which didnt become rithmatists didnt see the Shadowblaze at all.

rithmatists dont want to talk about it, because what would anyone think if they told them a calk-creature went into theire body?

 

wasnt it said that one rithmatist must die, before someone else can become a rithmatist? this would mean one Shadowblaze for each rithmatist.

[Shardlet]

I suppose it depends on whether or not Joel was wearing his street clothes underneath the robes.  If so, I expect he had the coin.  But even then, I do not think that that would have been enough to scare off the Shadowblaze.  The other examples of the use of the coin indicate no particular effect until the coin is shown to the chalklings.  In other words it is not the fact or the act of the measurement of time that is confusing, but rather the concept.  Nalizar is unaffected because he has come to understand the concept of measuring time.  So, unless Joel was holding the coin in view, I would not expect it to have had an effect on the Shadowblaze.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Shardlet

[Isomere]

The concept of a mathematical savant frightens Shadowblazes? Joel is kinda strange when it comes to numbers and geometry. My guess is the Shadowblaze will take time to learn about Joel before it can bond. 

[Shardlet]

I agree with Isomere.  Nalizar's comments to Joel at the end of the book suggest that Joel is something altogether new (rithmatically speaking).

[mistify]

If mathematical savants frighten shadowblazes, who are they bonding with? Mathematical savants are made to be Rithmatists (witness all the comments on Joel - "you should be a rithmatist"!) I don't buy it. I think he isn't a rithmatist because he isn't meant to be one - his talents can help most as a non-rithmatist, like in the end with Melody.

What scares me is that he will consider binding with a forgotten to become one.

[happyman]

I actually had a theory about this a while ago.

 

So far, all Rithmatists have been forced to be generalists.  They have to be good at drawing Chalkings, and making perfect circles, and knowing what defenses to set up, and otherwise managing all the strategy in a single go.

 

Why is this a good idea?  Especially with the limited number of Rithmatists available?  Especially with the social effects this has been having on the humans, Rithmatist and otherwise?

 

I suspect that Melody and Joel will provide a basis for something new: cooperation between Rithmatists and non-Rithmatitists.  They have shown the power of specialization.  Not recruiting Joel may have been an incredible strategic success on the part of whatever faction bonds with humans to make Rithmatists.  Or pure luck which leads to the same effect.  Either way, I suspect that it will play out in interesting ways.

[Shardlet]

I think though, that this strategy would be more effective if Joel actually was a rithmatist.  That way Melody would not have to trace over his lines.  While one rithmatist is drawing lines of warding, the other could be drawing lines of making.  What Melody and Joel have going works excedingly well for them because Joel is gifted at mathematically constructed lines which can be evaluated objectively while melody is gifted at drawing with lines of making which cannot be objectively evaluated.  While, it may be better in many cases than the status quo, this strategy would not work nearly as well for other rithmatists.  The strength of the strategy for Joel and Melody is that their strengths and weaknesses compliment each other.  This would be further strengthened by Joel having rithmatic ability. 

Edited July 22, 2013 by Shardlet

[happyman]

Shardlet,

 

You are correct that Joel and Melody are extraordinary in their specialties.  However, I suspect that other teams could be formed that work better than just an non-specialized Rithmatist alone.  After all, if you are allowed to choose from a broader range of people than just Rithmatists, you may have better choices, turning a mediocre Rithmatist into a good team and good Rithmatists into more strategic teams, etc.

[Shardlet]

I definitely think that there are other specializations that may occur, but I suspect that for a non-rithmatist to be included they would have to be shown to have a special aptitude for something.  Especially given that all their lines will have to be traced over.

 

However, two rithmatists within a single circle allows for divided labor while needing to protect only a single circle.  I suspect that 2-rithmatist teams will begin to pop up fairly readily.  But, without complimentary skills they would not likely be able to reach the heights of effectiveness of Joel and Melody.  Also, as I suggested above, I expect that the inclusion of a non-rithmatist would be rare.  If for no other reason than their lines would have to be traced over to be effective.  Which means that their aptitude with a type of line would have to be noticeably better than the rithmatist with whom they are paired.

[happyman]

All I can say, Shardlet, is that you are probably underestimating the benefits of training and practice, as well as the versatility they would have by having a much larger population to search from.

[Shardlet]

Give some examples of how you think it could prove beneficial outside of those I have provided.  I am interested to know your thoughts.  That's just the way I see it.  There very well may be other paradigms and circumstances which I haven't even considered.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Shardlet

[Crysanja]

uh i think this is funny, we havent seen real battle, but you dicide whats good or bad strategy.

maybe the point is more to cover alot of space then to stay close together, who knows whats going on at the tower.

 

i actualy wonder why they are tought special and more math. do you need math to draw a circle or an eclipse?

 

maybe we will learn why math is so importand when we learn more from future books.

 

 

btw when the masters watched the turnament, they spoke about rithmatist teams, even greather as 2 which used just one circle.

 

the fight was actualy very odd, because Joel seemd not to have any strategic overview at the end, because he didnt even realise they had won. (how can you fight in a good way when you dont have a clue, who you fight against.)

 

i would go as far as to say the ending of that fight was very poor written, because before in the book, it was allways about watching the oponent, to use the corret strategy.

 

 

but all this is a bit off-topic, maybe we should start something new?

[happyman]

Give some examples of how you think it could prove beneficial outside of those I have provided.  I am interested to know your thoughts.  That's just the way I see it.  There very well may be other paradigms and circumstances which I haven't even considered.

 

Let the Rithmatists focus and practice controlling chalkings while their non-Rithmatist learns how to draw a perfect nine-point circle?  I just think you are underestimating how much what Joel and Melody did can be learned.  Joel may have had a knack for it, but part of the reason he was as good as he was was because he spent hours and hours, for years, practicing.  Not everybody could do what he did, but surely there are others who could learn?  Maybe not as well as he could, but they could still complement a Rithmatist who can now focus on other things?

In the real world, specialization is almost universal, and not everybody has to be a savant for it to be useful.  In fact, most people aren't, and yet they are still more useful having learned one thing well than having learned many things poorly.  We are more flexible creatures than you give us credit for.

[Shardlet]

That is true that speciallization is valuable thing in most skill sets.  But most skill sets consist of much more substance than rithmatics.  Think about it, there are four basic rithmatic lines: Warding, forbiddance, making, and vigor.  They all need a certain level of skill to draw effectively.  However, rithmatists have about 10 years of education to learn rithmatics.  Now, think about your own education, for a bachelor's degree you have 2-3 years of specialized education (most degree specific course-work occupies this amount of time).  With 10 years of speciallized education, you could earn a bachelors, masters, and PhD in a specific field.  It seems that learning the mechanics of rithmatics (effective line drawing) occupies roughly the first 6-8 years of rithmatic education while the reamining time is spent on strategy, theory, and some level of practicum.  (Yes, I know rithmatists take other classes as well.  But you can bet that they are not going to force those classes at the expense of rithmatic education.  Rithmatists are just too important in their society.)  

 

At some point in time in this education you are going to attain something in the ballbark of the maximum of your ability with actual line construction (lines of making would be something of an exception to this perhaps).  The bulk of the rest of your education and your continued learning beyond is going to be development of your skill at using the lines effectively. 

 

Even though lines of making are likely more complex than the other lines, recall that Melody has unheard of control over her chalklings and they are wicked powerful.  This is a huge part of Joel's and Melody's success.  Of the skill sets, Joel's is going to be the easiest to replicate through practice and experience.  However, nobody would be able to even begin to try to replicate Melody's ability.  It seems much much more than a paradigm shift.  She has a powerful gift with chalklings that nobody else seems to share.  

[Crysanja]

uh i realy think a non rithmatist in a circle with a rithmatist is a huge disadvatage.

first you need to create a larger circle which is more difficult and can easyly result in a weaker one.

 

next is that you cant ignore different directions in thouse duels, which means you need to draw in alot of directions quickly.

-> with another person in the circle, you have an obstacle all the time, you need to work around him,

maybe even move in circles within the circle -> makes it more difficult to observe youre oponents.

 

with a larger circle you need to move more, to be able to draw youre actions outside the circle.

a larger circle means it is a larger target for youre oponents.

 

 

most or maybe even all thouse disadvantages go away, if you work only with rithmatists.

[Ender]

Ummm... None of those disadvantages go away with just Rithmatist. You still need a bigger circle, you still have a obstacle always in your way, and you're still a bigger target.

[Crysanja]

uh with rithmatists only, you can split the work,

one does everything for the left side the other for the right side - or something like that =)

 

but youre right, if they both want to draw in the same directions they will be an obstacle for eachother.

[Shardlet]

Precisely, a zone defense or offense.  This alllows each rithmatist to develop an independent strategy for dealing with separate opponents and further allows each rithmatist to focus on that strategy an better adapt that strategy as necessary.  If your attention is divided between two opponents, then your attention obviously cannot be fully focused on countering either.  This means you are going to miss opportunities.  But with two  rithmatists in a larger circle, then you only have to focus on 180 degrees rather than 360.  With three, 120 degrees. 

 

Also, multiple rithmatists (though, doesn't have to be a rithmatist for this) can enable you to build a larger, more perfect circle.  One person holds the end of a string, or a spike through the end of the string, while the rithmatist holds the chalk on the other end of the string to make a large, fairly perfect circle with this improvised and quick, and easy to use compass. 

[Crysanja]

you dont realy need help to use the trick to make a circle with a string,

the question is why is this way never mentioned in the book.

 

would be less difficult to remember the binding points on a circle with the same size each time.

 

 

guess there are reason we dont know.

 

im not sure if a larger cricle is stronger then a smaller one

[Shardlet]

It takes time to pound a stake into pavement.  A less fixed anchor for the string would likely either shift or be too cumbersome.  Just a string can be easily kept in your pocket with a piece of chalk.

 

A larger circle is not stronger, but it also would not be weaker and would allow more space for multiple rithmatists to work inside the same circle. 

 

Another advantage of the string is, you could have markings on the string that would allow you to accurately and quickly identify the four, six, or nine bindpoints on the circle made using the string.  Thus, you could have more than one string to make different sized circles and be able to have substantially perfect circles with substantially perfect bindpoint location.