Why Joel didn't become a Rithmatist (spoilers)

[Morsk]

At first: I'm really curious to know what the "fourth entity" is. I'm not good at any kind of physics or something related to, but may that "fourth entity" be the time? As for "mankind" measuring of time plays a very big role, Nalizar said:

I really like the idea that "fourth" relates to the view of time as a fourth dimension. Maybe the Shadowblaze naturally exists in a timeless, three-dimensional state, and it becomes two-dimensional when it tries to exist within time. (It's still three-dimensional, but one of its dimensions gets translated into time.) Or maybe it's not timeless, but has an alien system of time, and this has to be "removed" in order to bind its other three dimensions into our world.

[Arcanist Lupus]

Incidentally, if all Rithmatists are made "fourth element removed", then perhaps the reason Joel was not made into a Rithmatist is that they need him to have whatever the fourth element is.  Just a random thought.

 

 

Also worth noting is Nalizar's line (pg 360, hardcover)

I wonder why they did not want you.

Presumably, "they" is whomever decides who become Rithmatists, and given Nalizar's relation to human civilization, I doubt he meant a human group.

[Kurkistan]

Or "they" is the Shadowblaze. I agree that the Shadowblaze have some degree of choice (thus the "undeterminable"), but that doesn't exclude there being several levels of decision making.

[EvilNuff]

"The chaining of a Shadowblaze, fourth entity removed, is an often undeterminable process, and the bindagent should consider wisely the situation before making any decisions regarding the vessels to be indentured."

 

Joel see's "something" inside of Nalizar's eyes, presumably another Forgotten.  I think we all believe that the Forgotten have taken over or possessed their host humans of Nalizar and Harding.  Therefore it could be said that they were vessels for the Forgotten.  My theory is that the Shadowblaze "chain" to a human vessel and that is what makes a rithmatist.  

 

The Shadowblazes probably bind symbiotically where as the Forgotten are more parasitic.  This also explains why a new Rithmatist cannot be made until an old one dies, the old one's Shadowblaze is then freed.  

[Lurthemir]

Joel see's "something" inside of Nalizar's eyes, presumably another Forgotten.  I think we all believe that the Forgotten have taken over or possessed their host humans of Nalizar and Harding.  Therefore it could be said that they were vessels for the Forgotten.  My theory is that the Shadowblaze "chain" to a human vessel and that is what makes a rithmatist.  

 

The Shadowblazes probably bind symbiotically where as the Forgotten are more parasitic.  This also explains why a new Rithmatist cannot be made until an old one dies, the old one's Shadowblaze is then freed.  

I am also inclined to believe this. But I wonder what the fourth entity has to do with it, and why did the Shadowblaze not choose Joel.

[Eggbert34]

This is a pretty cool topic.  I had assumed or thought maybe it was the coin.  I listened to on audio so I can't reference quickly but didn't it make a point to call out that he had the coin?

 

A couple points:

1) If Melody thought he really could become a rithmatist then if people can ensure their children become rithmatists, the children must not know how.  Bribes to church? Donations?  It has to be something outside of their control.  Elsewise she wouldn't have been so hopeful.

 

2) I don't think it is the church leader dude who decides.   Why would he act unsurprised when Joel came out as a non-rithmatist?  It was clear that no other children saw the Shadowblaze who were non-rith so if it was his choice, then if anything, he would have been really surprised Joel didn't become one. 

 

3) I think Joel will become one at some point and I don't think it will be in the inception room.  I don't think that it's necessary for them to latch in the room.  

 

4) Do we think the church possibly keeps the Shadowblaze trapped in the room?  Was the rain damage a front for re-building a rithmatic boundary or adding more?  Just a random thought but i was curious when he said it flew under the alter into a black space

 

Just some random thoughts....I'm mad i'm already done but i just couldnt stop reading it

Edited May 21, 2013 by Eggbert34

[Arcanist Lupus]

This is a pretty cool topic.  I had assumed or thought maybe it was the coin.  I listened to on audio so I can't reference quickly but didn't it make a point to call out that he had the coin?

 

A couple points:

1) If Melody thought he really could become a rithmatist then if people can ensure their children become rithmatists, the children must not know how.  Bribes to church? Donations?  It has to be something outside of their control.  Elsewise she wouldn't have been so hopeful.

 

2) I don't think it is the church leader dude who decides.   Why would he act unsurprised when Joel came out as a non-rithmatist?  It was clear that no other children saw the Shadowblaze who were non-rith so if it was his choice, then if anything, he would have been really surprised Joel didn't become one. 

 

3) I think Joel will become one at some point and I don't think it will be in the inception room.  I don't think that it's necessary for them to latch in the room.  

 

4) Do we think the church possibly keeps the Shadowblaze trapped in the room?  Was the rain damage a front for re-building a rithmatic boundary or adding more?  Just a random thought but i was curious when he said it flew under the alter into a black space

 

Just some random thoughts....I'm mad i'm already done but i just couldnt stop reading it

He did have a coin.  If you check earlier in the thread, a bunch of us have already given our thoughts about it.

 

As for your other points:

 

1)  It can't be possible to insure your child becomes a Rithmatist, because of the fixed number.  If you can only become a Rithmatist if one has recently died, then if all the Rithmatists are healthy then there's no way short of murder to become one.

 

2)  I agree that the church leader is unlikely to make the decisions.  If they were, then someone would have figured it out, and started bribing church leaders.

 

3)  The room probably isn't necessary, else how did the first Rithmatist become one?  But if it isn't necessary, then why do the Shadowblazes use it?

 

4)  Possibly, but if we go with the one-Shadowblaze-per-Rithmatist assumption, then they'd continually have to replace it.

[Eggbert34]

Good points.....the crazy theories I mentioned above would mostly only be possible if the church was "hoarding" shadowblazes.  There is no saying they aren't trapped in that room.  They could let the ones out one at a time based on the child that goes in.  This seems ridiculously unlikely...especially for a YA book but I'm bored and I'm sure we won't find out anytime soon haha. 

 

Note - I do know it's a 1 to 1 thing but there is no saying there aren't vastly more Shadowblazes than rithmatists. 

Edited May 21, 2013 by Eggbert34

[Senor Feesh]

Was the rain damage a front for re-building a rithmatic boundary or adding more?

 

I like this. I don't know if you're right about the details, but the rain-damage and renovation is just the kind of insignificant-seeming detail that'll crop back up in a later book and suddenly be super-relevant.

[Tarontos]

It seemed to me that Joel didn't believe he could do the rithmantic line and  still does not believe he could make one. it could just be a matter of belief, but then if someone, Forgotten-Nalizar, could only really focus on rithmatists, he should still be able to tell, unless the first use of rithmantics fundamentally changes a person and this is what allows a forgotten to see the change.

 

This based off the intent someone must have to actually use a rithmantic line.

[Senor Feesh]

Interesting proposition, not sure if it feels right for me personally. After his repeat inception he does have the intent to draw a rithmatic line; maybe belief is a factor. Hard to say at this point.

[EvilNuff]

It seemed to me that Joel didn't believe he could do the rithmantic line and  still does not believe he could make one. it could just be a matter of belief, but then if someone, Forgotten-Nalizar, could only really focus on rithmatists, he should still be able to tell, unless the first use of rithmantics fundamentally changes a person and this is what allows a forgotten to see the change.

 

This based off the intent someone must have to actually use a rithmantic line.

 

Oh I think that the Forgotten can perceive the Shadowblaze inside the Rithmatist and that is what differentiates them for Forgotten.

[Tarontos]

Oh I think that the Forgotten can perceive the Shadowblaze inside the Rithmatist and that is what differentiates them for Forgotten.

All based on the assumption that Shadow Blazes bind to a person to make them a rithmatist.

 

I'm not convinced that this is the case, it feels to much like the Nahel bond, and this, disappointingly, is not in the Cosmere.

 

 

Interesting proposition, not sure if it feels right for me personally. After his repeat inception he does have the intent to draw a rithmatic line; maybe belief is a factor. Hard to say at this point.

or intent could be the same or similar to belief, it seemed like he intended to fail. he thinks something along the lines of " he already new the result ,it wouldn't work." 

[Isomere]

Perhaps the ShadowBlaze noticed something inside of Joel, some fundamental character flaw that made him a poor choice for bonding with. I want to believe that Joel is supposed to become a Rithmatist, but he could be very dangerous with that power.

[EvilNuff]

All based on the assumption that Shadow Blazes bind to a person to make them a rithmatist.

 

I'm not convinced that this is the case, it feels to much like the Nahel bond, and this, disappointingly, is not in the Cosmere.

My statements were definitely based on that assumption, but given the comments of the Forgotten/Nalizar about why they did not choose Joel what other conclusion can be reached?  At worst there is a choosing without binding which is sufficient for my statement.

[Tarontos]

My statements were definitely based on that assumption, but given the comments of the Forgotten/Nalizar about why they did not choose Joel what other conclusion can be reached?  At worst there is a choosing without binding which is sufficient for my statement.

What do you mean Nalizar/ forgotten not choosing Joel for what, I'm afraid I am confused.

[Turos]

Maybe the shadow blaze was trying to fill the gap of missing Rithmatists, but discovered it was unable because they weren't truly dead, just chalkified.

Whatever has got a hold of Nalizar began so only the previous year. Perhaps this strange creature and others like it have changed tactics to only convert Rithmatists to chalklings now. No room for more and what there is locked fighting for them, soon its a game of no contest.

Also, the thing about the 4th element removed, etc., sounds a lot like an equation. Interesting how all of Rithmatics seems to be about equations and geometry.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Turos Stoneward

[realmatist]

The "fourth entity" talk reminds me of Vasher's lecture about BioChromatic entities. I know that's a cosmere work, but I feel the same thing may apply. It could be possible for there to be entities similar in nature to BioChromatic ones (Chalkings, Forgotten, Shadowblaze(s), and possible miscellaneous cirles and lines).

 

Now, back to why I think Joel wasn't chosen.

 

Nalizar says that the wild chalkings don't go near clocks and gears because they deal with time, something hard for them to understand. Nalizar has become familiarized with this concept, and can go near clocks and other gearworks. I believe that the circles and lines work in the same way that time does. To the chalkings, time and mathematics are abstract concepts. However, they can both manifest themselves physically (for time, clocks and gears; for mathematics, geometry, which is used to bind and constrain chalkings). Through this physical manifestation of abstract concepts, chalkings can be controlled.

 

The way this relates to how Joel wasn't chosen is that maybe, the Shadowblaze didn't undestand Joel. Maybe there was something special about him (perhaps his aptitude for mathematics and geometry) that made the Shadowblaze fearful of Joel, and not choose him. So, when Joel tried to touch it, it panicked and ran. Perhaps, in time, the Shadowblaze will become familiar with Joel and make him a Rithmatist (no idea how that's going to happen).

 

Now, if you please, go and find flaws so I can fix my theory.

[Senor Feesh]

What do you mean Nalizar/ forgotten not choosing Joel for what, I'm afraid I am confused.

 

Not that Nalizar doesn't choose Joel. Nalizar wonders why 'they' didn't choose Joel. It's during their final conversation. Some people interpret this as the creature in the Inception chamber (which may be a Shadowblaze, but I'm not taking that as 100% confirmed). Others are suggesting 'they' may refer to a human agent who in some way influences the process.

[Kurkistan]

Actually, I don't think anyone is saying that humans had anything to do with Joel not being chosen the second time.

 

Other non-Rithmatists didn't see the chalkling, so presumably Joel seeing it but not being chosen was the "underterminable" part referenced in the book, and human intervention wasn't going to interfere at that point. If humans were involved in Joel's second inception, then it was likely either through not actively preventing his chance or through Melody/Fitch pulled some strings to get the Shadowblaze into the room with him.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Ryan]

I apologize ahead of time. This is going to be full of wild guesses. We have so little information at this point that I can't really manage anything more.

 

First, about the induction ceremony:

• I don't think the coin was the issue, and I'll point out why in a bit.
• The fourth element is probably a part of the Shadowblaze that they have to shed in order to bind to humans. Or maybe that the bindagent has to remove. The Shadowblaze that Joel sees has a physical presence; perhaps that is what must be shed.
• Something very dramatic, or at least memorable, happens to Rithmatists that doesn't happen to everyone else. If not, there would be no secret to keep, because everyone would know it.
  

About the wild chalklings:

• A human can be made into a wild chalkling. It seems likely, however, that only Rithmatists can be targeted in this way. At Charles' house, four non-Rithmatists were killed instead of captured. Maybe the Forgotten are picky, like Shadowblazes, but that doesn't seem to fit. They don't take non-Rithmatists because they can't.
• The only difference between Rithmatists and other humans is the Shadowblaze chained to them. I am lead to conclude that wild chalklings feed on Shadowblazes, and that they need them to reproduce.
• But, they also attack humans. Not animals, just humans. It's possible that humans offend them by making unnatural things; that they get some benefit, however small, from killing them; or that maybe dead humans somehow equates to more Shadowblazes.
• I'll lump the Forgotten in with the wild chalklings, since they are related. Their form seems to be a shadow without the blaze. They are weaker in the light. They aren't very bright (ho ho). They have Rithmatic power. And they're called "forgotten". Forgotten by who? How? When? Could it be that a Forgotten is a Shadowblaze that's had an element removed, but that was then forgotten? (Mehhh....probably not.)
  

 

About the Shadowblaze:

• They are probably at war with the wild chalklings. This seems only natural if I'm right that the wild chalklings prey on them.
• They had a relationship with an ancient native american people, in Zona Arida. The form of the Shadowblaze even seems patterned on such people.
• In our world, the Anasazi built awesome little cities in canyons and large grottos in the sides of cliffs in Arizona, New Mexico and southwestern Colorado. They abandoned them, though, and today nobody - not even their possible descendants, the Hopi - knows why.
• Okay, so that's our world. In the world of the book, the Spanish explorers (didn't conquer this time, suckas) found evidences of ancient peoples long gone. I believe Brandon stuck that in there to tip us off (and here's another wild guess): those ancient peoples definitely had a relationship with Shadowblazes, and may have even created them. They either created the Forgotten or managed to provoke them. The ensuing madness drove them from their homes.
• The Tower in Nebrask has shades of those ancient cities. It also reminds me of the Tower of Newport, in Rhode Island.
• It's possible, even likely, that all of those ancient Rithmatists became wild chalklings. That would explain why there were no Rithmatists in America before the arrival of explorers from Europa.
• The Monarch had a run-in with wild chalklings, and his pocket watch saved him. The implication that he became a Rithmatist on that day is strong. I believe that the Shadowblazes saw that these humans stood a chance against their enemy, and decided to give symbiosis another try.
• It seems likely that Shadowblaze suck at Rithmatics. Even Nalizar admits that he's at the school to learn about it. Rithmatics is a human invention. Perhaps that's what the Shadowblazes saw in the Monarch: the potential to create something with their power that they themselves could not. (This is, BTW, why I think the coin is not why Joel was not chosen.)
  

I've gone on at considerable length to paint a conjectural picture of the Shadowblaze at war with chalklings, needing humans for their powers of invention and ability to create order from chaos. I told you all that so I could tell you this: Joel was not picked because he has some role to play that war that requires him not to be a Rithmatist. As to what that "something" is, I unfortunately don't have much of a guess.

 

Now, some miscellaneous comments.

I think Joel is mildly autistic. His ability with math and geometry and his singleminded obsession with Rithmatics leads me to this conclusion. He is more socially able than most autistics, but I know that that condition has a very wide spectrum of severity. This may be what Nalizar saw in him.

The fact that chalk - the millennia-old compacted skeletons of living things - is required for Rithmatics to work strikes me as significant in some way.

The secrecy of the Inception strikes me as odd. I mean, the Church definitely has an incentive to maintain it; the parallels to the medieval Catholic church, which strove to keep scripture secret from the common people in order to maintain its power, are strong. But why are Rithmatists so fanatical in defending that secret? Even Rithmatists with no great belief in the Church keep it. There has to be a good reason presented to them, one that is so obvious to them that they all believe; and I think that, perhaps, if we can guess at that reason, we'll come a long way to guessing why Joel was not made a Rithmatist.

 

I also was going to make a comment about the binding agent, but I don't remember what it was, but I've been typing for an hour, and I'm really tired, so I think I'll stop here. If you read all that, you have my condolences, and my thanks. Now: what do you think? Can you add to my theories, or possibly tear them down?

[Senor Feesh]

Wow, Ryan, that's a great effort at consolidating what we know so far. Some nice conjecture in there too, although we don't have enough yet that I'm comfortable weighing in with if I think you're right or not.

 

I will say this though; as much as I'd love to see a story where Joel doesn't become a Rithmatist by the end of the series, I expect he will. And it's not because of any reason presented in the story so far (although the fact he saw the creature in the Inception room certainly implies something beyond the mundane). It's simply because this is a YA story. Yes, it's a horribly meta reason, and maybe Brandon will prove me wrong, but ultimately I don't see the majority intended audience being satisfied with and ending where Joel doesn't become a Rithmaist - unless he becomes something else, anyway.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Well it would be kinda a waste to note that Joel is special mystically and then never do anything with it.

Besides what main character in a Sanderson book doesn't have superpowers? It might just be hair shapeshifting, but its always present.

[Satsuoni]

OK, my thoughts about Ryan's thoughts:

First, about the induction ceremony:

• I don't think the coin was the issue, and I'll point out why in a bit.

I agree with that. After all, the church is full of gears, and 2D creatures have shown that they can adapt to the sensation.

 

• Something very dramatic, or at least memorable, happens to Rithmatists that doesn't happen to everyone else. If not, there would be no secret to keep, because everyone would know it.

 

While I am not sure, my imagination shows the Shadowblaze crawling into Rithmatists' mouth and extending chalky tendrils into brain. That would go a long way towards explaining their silence... I am probably over-thinking it.

 

• A human can be made into a wild chalkling. It seems likely, however, that only Rithmatists can be targeted in this way. At Charles' house, four non-Rithmatists were killed instead of captured. Maybe the Forgotten are picky, like Shadowblazes, but that doesn't seem to fit. They don't take non-Rithmatists because they can't.

 

Quite so.

• The only difference between Rithmatists and other humans is the Shadowblaze chained to them. I am lead to conclude that wild chalklings feed on Shadowblazes, and that they need them to reproduce.

 

I disagree with this, since once the forgotten is gone, chalklings instantly revert to humans, their abilities seemingly intact. So the Shadowblazes are not eaten or damaged in any perceptible way.

• But, they also attack humans. Not animals, just humans. It's possible that humans offend them by making unnatural things; that they get some benefit, however small, from killing them; or that maybe dead humans somehow equates to more Shadowblazes.
• I'll lump the Forgotten in with the wild chalklings, since they are related. Their form seems to be a shadow without the blaze. They are weaker in the light. They aren't very bright (ho ho). They have Rithmatic power. And they're called "forgotten". Forgotten by who? How? When? Could it be that a Forgotten is a Shadowblaze that's had an element removed, but that was then forgotten? (Mehhh....probably not.)

Note that not all wild chalklings are like the ones made from humans. Some seem normal enough, and if they all could reform as human-based can, the Nebrask would have probably fallen long since. I am relatively certain that Forgotten make wild chalklings, most of which are just chalk. Also, the Forgotten inside Nalizar seems smart enough and largely unaffected by light (though apparently it dislikes it) , so it is apparent that they vary greatly. Their natural form is charcoal drawn..something:

 A shape that did seem to absorb the light, created completely of dark, shifting blackness: like charcoal scraped and scratched on the ground, only but standing upright in the shadows beside the house. It did watch. That deep, terrible blackness. Something from the Depths themselves. The shape wiggling, shaking, like a pitch-black fire sketched in charcoal.

 

 

 

• They had a relationship with an ancient native american people, in Zona Arida. The form of the Shadowblaze even seems patterned on such people.

Maybe... Or they were ancient american people, independent of human, two tribes of them.

 

• It's possible, even likely, that all of those ancient Rithmatists became wild chalklings. That would explain why there were no Rithmatists in America before the arrival of explorers from Europa.

That, I am not sure about. If that was so, the conversion of RIthmatists should have been their primary mode of attack. Though it is possible that they have simply forgotten about this technique.

 

• It seems likely that Shadowblaze suck at Rithmatics. Even Nalizar admits that he's at the school to learn about it. Rithmatics is a human invention. Perhaps that's what the Shadowblazes saw in the Monarch: the potential to create something with their power that they themselves could not.

Heh, that is possible They saw awesome gears and decided to use humans as a weapon.

 

I think Joel is mildly autistic. His ability with math and geometry and his singleminded obsession with Rithmatics leads me to this conclusion. He is more socially able than most autistics, but I know that that condition has a very wide spectrum of severity. This may be what Nalizar saw in him.

Aspergers. From my POV, as a mild case,  I'd say.. maybe? He doesn't seem asocial enough to warrant a diagnosis. One can, after all, be a savant without being autistic, as it only counts when there are negative sides involved.

 

The fact that chalk - the millennia-old compacted skeletons of living things - is required for Rithmatics to work strikes me as significant in some way.

Heh, sacrificing corpses of innocent creatures for power I wonder if anybody tried to practice Rithmatics with oil or other substances.

 

 

[EvilNuff]

...

• The only difference between Rithmatists and other humans is the Shadowblaze chained to them. I am lead to conclude that wild chalklings feed on Shadowblazes, and that they need them to reproduce.

...

 

Ryan, great post, thank you!  I do not see any evidence for your conclusion here, however.  I think it is safe to assume that there is a conflict between the Shadowblazes and wild chalklings but I saw nothing to indicate that they fed on the Shadowblazes?