I have no mind's eye.

[Talanic]

How many windows are in your house?  Just stop and think about it for a moment before continuing.

 

Did you just perform a mental walk-through of your home to come to a number?  Most people do that, apparently.  I - and people like me - can't.  I can still answer the question, but I don't perform any kind of visualization because I am incapable of forming images in my mind.  I can get vague flickers of...something...for a few fractions of a second, but even trying can be draining.  The day after the article broke, I found myself unaccountably exhausted, probably from trying to picture things all day.  It's possible that I managed to sprain a neuron.

 

The condition is now known as Aphantasia.  It's not well understood yet, partly because nobody had noticed that it existed at all until someone developed the condition after a surgery.  People with the condition don't tend to suffer from it - at least so far as is known - but there's two big things that I'm here to discuss in light of this condition, and I'm pretty sure you can guess what they are.

 

Reading and writing.

 

When I read, any passage of description is wasted on me unless it winds up relevant to the action or characters.  I can understand things relating to how characters move, for example, but architecture, fashion or other matters of appearance bounce off my brain and almost never have any impact.  I almost always glaze over and skip these things, and I can't help it.

 

When I write, all the things that I never read...don't wind up in my work.  Often my characters' appearances are left up to the reader's imagination, and while it's half because I think that's a good approach, well...I can't do it any other way without assistance from someone else.  I can't help but wonder if it makes my work worse, better, or just different.

 

I can't be the only writer who's like this, right?  A lot of things make a lot more sense to me now that I know that it's moderately rare.  Although we still have no idea how rare - one in three? One in a hundred?  Is anyone else here aphantasic? 

[Delightful]

Wow. This is so fascinating.

When I get really into a book, I forget that I'm reading words and basically just see the whole thing playing out as a movie in my head.

How do you experience a book without picturing anything? (If you don't mind my asking).

[Curious Anamaximder]

Not me. I feel for you though.

[Kasimir]

Wow. I didn't realise that. It sounds like me, but not quite. It takes a lot of effort for me to think in images, and I just can't really do that often. I guess I get rare images, very rare, if I concentrate hard--like, remembering if someone was left-handed or right-handed by pulling out a memory of them scribbling on the whiteboard with their left/right hand. They're more flickers with no real texture to them, I suppose. You sort of know, but there's no real depth to the image, not like what you get when you're looking at something right in front of you.

 

I can't do that for books, and like you, I tend to just glaze past descriptions unless I focus. The words help, though. While I can't get a coherent image, the words...the sound and feel of them...they help me when writing >> Not sure if that makes any sense.

 

I don't know if that makes me aphantasic :S

[ccstat]

Like Delightful, I am extremely visual in my reading and my writing, but much more kinesthetically. Actions and expressions register very strongly, and I often catch myself making faces or little motions to correspond with what is happening in the book. (Sometimes others catch me instead). One side effect of this is that I have a very definite feel for the spacial relationships, and if the scene calls for someone to turn left when I think they should be turning right because of how I've imagined the layout, it bothers me a lot. I have to decide whether to ignore what the author just said or take a few moments to go back and reconstruct the scene to be consistent (which only works some of the time, and requires repeated reminders).

On the other hand, I am very inconsistent in my ability to visualize characters and places. And when I do have a good mental image of a person or a location, there is a good chance that it is a poor match for the description given in the book. For example, it took me until my 2nd read-through of WoR (after multiple reads of WoK) to finally put red hair on Rock. 

 

Slightly related--Way back in grade or middle school there was a unit where we listened to an old radio show production of the Maltese Falcon. After the first scene the teacher asked us to decribe the people and location. I'm sure there were contextual and cultural clues, because nearly everyone had a consistent image. Except me. In my mind the woman was wearing not a dull brown coat but a red sequin dress. My teacher, understandably, just gave me a funny "were you even listening?" look and proceeded with the lesson plan. 

 

In all I guess that means my mind's eye works fine, but it doesn't always care what the words say it should be looking at.

Edited July 7, 2015 by ccstat

[Delightful]

 if the scene calls for someone to turn left when I think they should be turning right because of how I've imagined it, it bothers me a lot and I have to decide whether to ignore what the author just said or take a few moments to go back and reconstruct the scene to be consistent.

I have this all the time, except usually with me it's where places or geographical features are in relation to each other. And if something doesn't add up I'll reconstruct my mental image of it, or acknowledge that it doesn't make sense and just imagine everything not aligned with each other in a kind of dream-sense. (I found Elantris pretty confusing in this regard, actually).

 

Which makes re-reading books comforting and sometimes boring - I already have a lot of the images in my memory. Actually I was once reading a book for the third time, changed how I visualised it and suddenly everything made much more sense. 

[Talanic]

Wow. This is so fascinating.

When I get really into a book, I forget that I'm reading words and basically just see the whole thing playing out as a movie in my head.

How do you experience a book without picturing anything? (If you don't mind my asking).

 

Believe me, your method is just as foreign to me as mine is to you.  I'm far more likely to fixate on the dialogue than anything else, but I do understand a well-described action scene; I just don't see it.  If I'm hearkening back to my favorite characters and events in books I loved, I'm more likely to experience some of the thrill of when I read it by repeating a favored quote than anything else.

 

 

Wow. I didn't realise that. It sounds like me, but not quite. It takes a lot of effort for me to think in images, and I just can't really do that often. I guess I get rare images, very rare, if I concentrate hard--like, remembering if someone was left-handed or right-handed by pulling out a memory of them scribbling on the whiteboard with their left/right hand. They're more flickers with no real texture to them, I suppose. You sort of know, but there's no real depth to the image, not like what you get when you're looking at something right in front of you.

 

I can't do that for books, and like you, I tend to just glaze past descriptions unless I focus. The words help, though. While I can't get a coherent image, the words...the sound and feel of them...they help me when writing >> Not sure if that makes any sense.

 

I don't know if that makes me aphantasic :S

 

Pretty sure that there will eventually be grades and classifications within the label, but I'd say you and I operate very similarly.  I don't tend to get a flicker for memories of things unless I try very hard, and it's unlikely to be helpful, as it lasts under a quarter second.  

 

I'm not sure if I get what you mean about the words helping.  I do feel a certain mental flow when I get into writing; is that similar to what you mean?

[Delightful]

Believe me, your method is just as foreign to me as mine is to you. I'm far more likely to fixate on the dialogue than anything else, but I do understand a well-described action scene; I just don't see it. If I'm hearkening back to my favorite characters and events in books I loved, I'm more likely to experience some of the thrill of when I read it by repeating a favored quote than anything else

So you don't see with you're minds eye, but you do hear with your minds ear?

[Kasimir]

I'm not sure if I get what you mean about the words helping.  I do feel a certain mental flow when I get into writing; is that similar to what you mean?

Sort of, yes. That some words evoke to me a certain sort of feel, a certain sharp clarity, and they're quite powerful. That happens with descriptions, even poems. But just no images. I'd have to try hard for flickers.

[ccstat]

I'm curious how that translates to visual media. If you think about a movie after you watch it, do you remember the images at all, or just the dialogue and sequence of events?

If you do recall movie images, what about, say, graphic novels?

[Talanic]

So you don't see with you're minds eye, but you do hear with your minds ear?

 

Pretty good way to put it - although I don't assign voices to characters either...I understand some people do that.

 

What I wonder is, have you read any of my writing posted here?  If so, can you visualize the scenes?  Might you actually be able to see the things I write about in a way that I - as the author - can't?

 

Sort of, yes. That some words evoke to me a certain sort of feel, a certain sharp clarity, and they're quite powerful. That happens with descriptions, even poems. But just no images. I'd have to try hard for flickers.

 

I don't think I get that, myself.  And no, no flickers from the written word.

 

I'm curious how that translates to visual media. If you think about a movie after you watch it, do you remember the images at all, or just the dialogue and sequence of events?

If you do recall movie images, what about, say, graphic novels?

 

I can get a flicker of a movie that I've seen, but its accuracy is probably suspect and I won't be able to pull any details that I didn't specifically note at the time of seeing it.  Dialogue and sequence of events is indeed most of what I'm walking away with - which doesn't mean I can't, say, recreate a scene by copying the movements of the actors.  I know what they did, I just can't picture it.  Same with anything else I've seen; if I didn't notice something specifically, concentrating and trying to imagine what happened will never result in me getting more information about what I saw.

 

And when I read a graphic novel, I...well, I kinda skim the panels.  My wife actually came to me complaining about a graphic novel that we'd both read recently; while the writing was okay, the art was terrible, and I had not noticed until she pointed it out.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Talanic

[Delightful]

I haven't read any of your writing, where can I find some?

I don't usually assign specific voices to a character, but I might have a sense of "oh he's deep and gravelly" kind of thing. Actually how novels turn up in your brain as you read is super interesting. For me at least, it's not *quite* pictures and not *quite* voices and not quite the other senses either, but a kind of shadow of them.

Funnily enough, I also skim the art in graphic novels. But that might be because I read prose novels far more often so I'm not used to stopping and looking at the art.

[Talanic]

My first novel's downloadable from my signature.  Alternatively, I did NaNoWriMo here in Creator's Corner last year - it's a draft, but it was fun to write.

[skaa]

This is very interesting. I wonder if aphantasic people are capable of having visual hallucinations (e.g. via hallucinogenic substance, electrical stimulation at the left temporoparietal junction, etc.). Come to think of it, what are your dreams like, Talanic?

[Talanic]

Unusual.  As in, once every three months or so.

 

I can say that I definitely dream in color, and occasionally have complex dreams with full narratives - sometimes they even make sense upon waking.  However, once the dream is over, there aren't any images remaining, just impressions and vague shapes.

 

An important note, though, is that I didn't think of my dreams in regards to my condition until the past couple weeks, and it's been over a month since my last remembered dream.  I recall its story well - I entered a haunted house and was stalked by a tormented spirit.  When she came at me, I caught her in my arms and asked her when anyone had last shown her compassion, kissed her on the cheek, and held her while she cried.  We also danced, which is particularly strange, as I can't dance in real life.

 

I don't have nightmares - or at least, have not had any in many years.

Edited July 11, 2015 by Talanic

[Talanic]

I have now heard from the research team, who gave me some nice surveys.  I asked, and they're okay with me crossposting them - in fact, they requested that anyone who scores below a 32 on the second one should send them a message.  

 

First one: visual imagery questionnaire June 2015 FINAL.doc And my results:

Age

33

 

Gender

Male

 

Years of full-time education

16 – Bachelor's Degree, Science / History.

 

Profession

Pizza Delivery / Writer

 

Country of residence

United States of America

 

When did you become aware that you were unable to form mental images?

Between ten and fifteen years ago.

 

How did you become aware of this?

I'm a storyteller. I realized there was a gap between my audience and myself. It's possible my readers can visualize my characters and setting better than I can.

 

Did this discovery have an emotional impact on you?

Some. I understood things better.

 

Is your lack of visual imagery total, or do you sometimes experience brief flashes of imagery?

 

I definitely see brief flashes, but can't sustain them for even a quarter second. Also, I am unable to pull detail from these flashes if they aren't things I already knew.

 

Is your ability to imagine affected by whether your eyes are open or closed?

Yes.

 

Does your mood influence your ability to form images?

Not that I have noticed.

 

Are all types of imagery affected, or can you imagine sounds (including music), textures (by imagined touch), tastes or smells?

 

I can manage music, but didn't even know the others were possible.

 

Do you dream normally, and in particular do you see visual images in dreams?

From the results so far, I hesitate to say that I do anything normally, but I do see visual images in dreams. They dissipate rapidly on waking.

 

Is your ability to recall memorable events from the past, like holidays or celebrations, normal?

I can draw out facts, but can't really picture the events. I don't know if that's normal.

 

Do you have any difficulty in recognising objects or faces?

If someone has changed their appearance, I may have more difficulty recognizing them than someone else might. I have some difficulty associating names with faces.

 

 

Do you think that your lack of a ‘mind’s eye’ has had any other effect on your thought processes?

Hard to say without comparing thought processes with someone who has one.

 

 

Did it affect your career choice?

Definitely. I studied to be a programmer but had to back out when I got to the point of visual design of programs. Even setting up boxes on screen taxed me to my limits. Knowing now that others can 'visualize' smells and flavors explains why I backed off from trying to be a chef, as well.

 

 

Has it had an effect on your relationships (for example by making it more difficult to reminisce, or to imagine the faces of loved ones)?

My wife and I came to an understanding of these issues very quickly.

 

 

Do you think that your lack of a mind’s eye has had any particular advantages

I understand that it has massively changed my writing style, but whether that's an advantage, disadvantage, or just makes it unique is difficult to say.

 

Do you have any relatives who have similarly noticed that they lack a mind’s eye?

None have noticed; all the ones I have asked do not lack one.

 

Please count the number of windows in your house or apartment. How do you do this? Do you inspect an image of your house or apartment as you perform this task?

Ten. I remember from when I put up weatherproofing that there are three double windows, two singles, and two more in the basement. It's a math problem.

 

Is there any particular aspect of this topic that you would like us to look into further?

 

Yes. I find that I have a slightly easier time imagining scenes of action and motion. This may be a result of my long-time video game play, or it might be something common to others with the condition; I have no idea.

 

Might you be willing to take part in further research on this topic?

 

Gladly.

 

Do you have any other comments?

 

According to my wife, I'm now off the hook for not being able to draw worth a damnation.

 

And the second one: VVIQ 10.7.15.doc  And my own results:

VIVIDNESS OF VISUAL IMAGERY QUESTIONNAIRE (VVIQ)

 

For each item on this questionnaire, try to form a visual image, and consider your experience carefully. For any image that you do experience, rate how vivid it is using the five-point scale described below. If you do not have a visual image, rate vividness as ‘1’. Only use ‘5’ for images that are truly as lively and vivid as real seeing. Please note that there are no right or wrong answers to the questions, and that it is not necessarily desirable to experience imagery or, if you do, to have more vivid imagery.

 

Perfectly clear and vivid as real seeing 5

Clear and reasonably vivid 4

Moderately clear and lively 3

Vague and dim 2

No image at all, you only “know” that you are

thinking of the object 1

 

For items 1-4, think of some relative or friend whom you frequently see (but who is not with you at present) and consider carefully the picture that comes before your mind’s eye.

1. The exact contour of face, head, shoulders and body _______3________

2. Characteristic poses of head, attitudes of body etc. _______2________

3. The precise carriage, length of step etc., in walking _______1________

4. The different colours worn in some familiar clothes ­­­­­­­­­­­­­_______1________

 

Visualise a rising sun. Consider carefully the picture that comes before your mind’s eye.

5. The sun rising above the horizon into a hazy sky _______1________

6. The sky clears and surrounds the sun with blueness _______1________

7. Clouds. A storm blows up with flashes of lightning _______1________

8. A rainbow appears _______1________

 

Think of the front of a shop which you often go to. Consider the picture that comes before your mind’s eye.

9. The overall appearance of the shop from the opposite side

of the road _______2________

10. A window display including colours, shapes and details

Of individual items for sale _______1________

11. You are near the entrance. The colour, shape and

details of the door. _______3________

12. You enter the shop and go to the counter. The counter

assistant serves you. Money changes hands _______1________

 

Finally think of a country scene which involves trees, mountains and a lake. Consider the picture that comes before your mind’s eye. _______________

13. The contours of the landscape ________1_______

14. The colour and shape of the trees ________1_______

15. the colour and shape of the lake ________2_______

16. A strong wind blows on the trees and on the lake causing

waves in the water. ________1_______

[king of nowhere]

When I read, any passage of description is wasted on me unless it winds up relevant to the action or characters.  I can understand things relating to how characters move, for example, but architecture, fashion or other matters of appearance bounce off my brain and almost never have any impact.  I almost always glaze over and skip these things, and I can't help it.

I can piicture movies in my head, including stuff I made up, so I clearly do not suffer from it, but I tend to read like you do. architecture, fashion and appearence also bounce off my brain, in part because it's stuff I do not understand/care much about, and especially in english literature many words related to those fields are unknown to me - in particular in the wheel of time some descriptions are outside my understanding, and if I look for the translated words, I find out that I have never encountered that word in italian either, nor do I know what it means.

but part of that  is just from the way I am. If I read a description of how a character is dressed, I can form it in my head. But when I read the scene, and I picture it in my head, the clothing changes. or it is undefined. It's like my mind economize brain-power by avoiding what it perceives as unnecessary details, and it uses some sort of preconceived image for them.

A most telling example is a sci-fi setting I have in my mind (I may write something about it in the future). There are soldiers fighting with golden-colored powered armors, and while I can see pretty well the armors, the starships, the alien environments and stuff, I always envision the enemy aromors as black. Even if I know, in my head, that they are identical, and should be golden-colored too. If I concentrate, I can see both sides in the fight with the real color. as soon as I start paying attention to something else, those of the other side revert back to black.

I experience similar situations with most descriptions: I read the description, sometimes I even envision it, but then it goes back to what I percceived in my head before. That's one reason I'm grateful for the art in the stormlight archive: it's much easier to see it correctly when you have  a picture in the book.

[Mistrunner]

Wow. I wasn't aware of this, as really most of the world was until recently, I suppose.

I'm with Delightful- I have an almost weirdly strong mind's eye. It gets a little unfortunate at times, like just now when I bumped into the bookshelf just now in the dark and a half-dozen rather vivid images of it being everything from the tallest duffel bag ever (don't even ask how I got to that conclusion) to a serial killer on the loose. It makes getting to sleep at night rather difficult, to say the least. And it wreaks havoc with my OCD and hand motions. (It's in the Interesting Things About You thread.)

What do you think of art, then? Do you only remember what you felt while seeing it?

This makes me wonder if anyone in the forums has synthesia, another very interesting condition. People with it can see sounds or hear colors or have similar crossovers of the senses. Nearly all associate colors with letters and words. Of course, this happens to some extent in most people- most associate the letter A with the color red, for example.

So you don't visualize where things are, you just... know? What if you think of a list of words? Do you just- like with the windows thing- know what the words are?

Edited July 23, 2015 by Mistrunner

[Talanic]

What do you think of art, then? Do you only remember what you felt while seeing it?

 

So you don't visualize where things are, you just... know? What if you think of a list of words? Do you just- like with the windows thing- know what the words are?

 

Had to talk with my wife to come up with a response.  I don't really tend to 'feel' anything in particular when I look at art.  I might find that something is nifty, but it doesn't resonate.

 

And yes, I just know where things are.  Even when navigating in the dark, I don't bring up any kind of visual image.  For me, that list of words tends to be more real than the images, almost.  It's like I explained it first, years before people started to study the condition.  In my mind, the word 'tree' doesn't conjure any archetypal image of a tree, but rather the word itself.  It is the spelling, the sound, and the related ideas - the facts that trees usually have bark and branches and leaves, that some are poisonous and some bear fruit.  It's a whirlwind of data at the tip of my tongue but it has no visual component.

[ChickenPlague]

I can only see an image in my mind for a brief second however I think in images very often. When I try to remember something I saw it is also very inaccurate and anything that I wasn't paying attention to is very vague. I also can't remember an image at all if something didn't trigger my interest at the moment of seeing it.

When I make something in my mind however it can be incredibly detailed.

When I try to visualize something I read in a book it is hard because I don't really remember much from books except for specific scenes that stuck out to me and the plot. When I try to visualize one of the scenes that stuck out to me they are very different from what is described and only keep the main idea and some visual descriptions.

Also when I tried to count my windows I didn't make a mental tour although some images of the windows popped in without helping.

So is this completely different or similar in your opinion?

[Elbereth]

When I write, all the things that I never read...don't wind up in my work.  Often my characters' appearances are left up to the reader's imagination, and while it's half because I think that's a good approach, well...I can't do it any other way without assistance from someone else.  I can't help but wonder if it makes my work worse, better, or just different.

  

I am not aphantasic, I'm fairly sure. But I also don't describe my characters in my works, probably because I tend to skip over the descriptions and even the actions, usually, in books. I skim descriptive paragraphs, and if there's a fight scene, I usually skim the non-dialogue parts of that too, only going back if I get confused by something.

I can only see an image in my mind for a brief second however I think in images very often. When I try to remember something I saw it is also very inaccurate and anything that I wasn't paying attention to is very vague. I also can't remember an image at all if something didn't trigger my interest at the moment of seeing it.

When I make something in my mind however it can be incredibly detailed.

When I try to visualize something I read in a book it is hard because I don't really remember much from books except for specific scenes that stuck out to me and the plot. When I try to visualize one of the scenes that stuck out to me they are very different from what is described and only keep the main idea and some visual descriptions.

Also when I tried to count my windows I didn't make a mental tour although some images of the windows popped in without helping.

So is this completely different or similar in your opinion?

(emphasis mine)

This is a good way to describe it for me, I think. I can make perfectly detailed mental images. Just most of the time, I don't bother. Sometimes my attention will be caught by some cool thing in real life, and I'll remember it and put an image of it in this mental room of this sort of thing. But otherwise I basically don't notice people's dress or attire, even in real life. When I think of a person I know well, I don't visualize them. I just think of their personality.

So... I'm not the same. But I do share a few things in common.

[Arrae]

When I read, I sound out the words in my head, and it feels like there is motion in my vocal chords even though I'm completely silent. The sounds tend to take precedence over any mental images I form.

I think my thoughts in the sounds of words, but occasionally in pictures. I have very difficult time visualizing smells. I did this a lot more when I was younger, but I would have silent conversations with myself. Usually one side is more naive/hopeful while the other side is more cynical.

I can occasionally catch my dad talking out loud to himself.

I draw primarily by using lines to define shapes first and then shading in lights/shadows.

[Elbereth]

That's interesting. I never sound out words in my head. I read too fast for that, I guess? But I do think in words, except when I have an... I don't know what to call it. An intuitive thought? I think too fast for words sometimes, and just think in thought. I'm not sure how else to describe it.

I talk aloud to myself (or in my head), but it's not a conversation between two distinct people so much as a thought pocess.

[Arrae]

Huh. I think I have some intuitive thoughts too, they just get translated to words and I understand it more fully.

This is interesting stuff. Is anybody here a psychologist?

[Curiosity]

I must say, this is fascinating. I'm a highly visual person, and the entire idea of aphantasia is fascinating and alien, especially as it alienates the possibility of grapheme to color synesthesia. 

 

Talanic, would you identify as an auditory or kinetic learner (as opposed to visual)?