yurisses Posted July 6, 2015 Report Share Posted July 6, 2015 We know that supposedly, Copperclouds protect the Smoker from emotional Allomancy. However, in the annotations we learn that Zane has been Allomantically manipulating Vin's emotions. Was her Coppercloud down? Or is it, as I suspect, one of Brandon's rare oversights? That said, Zane IS a master at manipulating people. I wanted him to be brilliant at playing with people’s emotions. He’s been Soothing and Rioting Vin for most of this book, but only very subtly. You rarely get to see that explicitly, since when it’s happening, we’re in her head and her emotions just feel like emotions to her. But watch the narrative and you’ll see little spikes of emotion caused by Zane. (http://brandonsanderson.com/annotation-mistborn-2-forty-three/) I suspect it because protection from emotional Allomancy is mentioned when introduced and in the ClubXBreeze chapter, but rarely otherwise. In Yeden's ball, we witness Vin dazing a Tineye and Smoker with duralumin+brass, but the narration/characters doesn't mention the noteworthiness of the achievement. I mean, duralumin cracks copper emotional protection! You just destroyed the assumption that Smokers were immune to brass/zinc! Either the book doesn't comment on it to reduce the word count or Brandon forgot about that minor perk of copper halfway through writing. (Another example of emotional protection being cracked would be the Lord Ruler's Soothing.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FeatherWriter Posted July 6, 2015 Report Share Posted July 6, 2015 Well, supposedly a Smoker would only be immune while they're burning copper, so any time that Vin wasn't burning she would be fair game. Still, it does seem odd to think that she might not be burning while around Zane, since I was under the impression that she kept copper on at pretty much all times. I don't think that Zane had access to or knowledge of duralumin, if I remember correctly. Also, I think once you reach the point of using duralumin to force your way through someone's defenses, I'm pretty sure subtlety and delicate manipulation is out of the question. The target would probably be pretty aware they were under the influence of forces when they're that strong. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted July 6, 2015 Report Share Posted July 6, 2015 Actually, I have much the opposite concern. She's always burning bronze around him. Most times she's with Zane, she comments how she can sense his pulses, frequently in the context of piercing his own coppercloud. The two times we see him approach her from his perspective, he makes mention of her noticing him when she shouldn't be able to. She burns bronze a lot that book to listen to the thumping, and she makes a comment towards the end that she's almost always burning it these days. Why, then, doesn't she notice that he's burning brass and zinc? She proves in her moment with Breeze, one of the most skilled and subtle Soothers there is, that she can tell who someone is Soothing. I get that her coppercloud was down because she found bronze more useful. But why wasn't her bronze identifying that she was being Soothed and Rioted? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan Posted July 6, 2015 Report Share Posted July 6, 2015 I'm of the same opinion/concern with Oudeis here. -- EDIT: A thought? Maybe it's Ruin's fault? If we assume that Ruin wanted Zane's manipulations of Vin to succeed, perhaps Ruin could have selectively shut down here coppercloud-piercing for Zane? I could see this working in two different ways: either Ruin directly shut down Vin's Hemalurgy for periods of time (which capability would be new and completely unseen so far, so I find it a bit unlikely), or he did his good old mind-manipulating voodoo on her to just make Vin decide to turn off her bronze and leave off her copper every once and awhile while she happened to be having deep conversations with Zane. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted July 6, 2015 Report Share Posted July 6, 2015 Well, we do know that, per Zane, when he tries to think about the fact that there's a spike in his chest his own mind shies away. So I could see Ruin convincing Vin, "Oh, he's burning most of his metals, I worry about my safety with him so I'm gonna concentrate on the physical ones..." Vin ignores emotional allomancy a lot less than most Mistborn do, but her primary focus has always been the physical ones; it's not wholly out of character for her to dismiss their use among others. Since in my head I liken Ruin's control to an extreme version of emotional allomancy, this makes it interestingly meta. Yo dawg. I see you there manipulating Vin's emotions. Let me manipulate Vin's emotions so Vin doesn't notice that you're manipulating Vin's emotions. I also concur with you that it would be unprecedented for a Shard, especially one trapped as Ruin is, to deliberately restrict the power they grant. Especially seeing as in this case, he'd prolly have to let Vin continue piercing his cloud to notice other bronzepulses, or else she'd be like, wait why am I suddenly not sensing him burning Iron as he's allomantically holding himself on this wall? Still, it is an interesting thought. Stormlight Archive. That time with Kaladin was clearly a unique and specific instance, which underlying principle does not apply here. I don't yet know whether I think this is what happened or not, but your theory certainly holds water. The only counter-argument I think I can make to it is, it shows a level of understanding of humans and their emotions Ruin is typically characterized as not having. Still, we know he can sense when people use allomancy. If he noticed Zane using zinc and brass, it wouldn't require too much insight to think, it will help him if I dull her suspicions a bit. (This does, however, lead me back to a question I've asked in another thread. Why did Ruin seem to ship Vane? It doesn't actually make all of the sense. How were Ruin's goals advanced by Zane successfully pulling Vin away from Elend?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colours Posted July 7, 2015 Report Share Posted July 7, 2015 (This does, however, lead me back to a question I've asked in another thread. Why did Ruin seem to ship Vane? It doesn't actually make all of the sense. How were Ruin's goals advanced by Zane successfully pulling Vin away from Elend?) It was probably something along the lines of "let's help Zane make Vin kill more people", I think. Vane is likely the most unsustainable and destructive relationship that could have formed in the entire series, and we all know that Ruin can't keep his hands off of unsustainable and destructive things. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted July 7, 2015 Report Share Posted July 7, 2015 sure he could. harmony says he was fully capable of making one thing if it could be used to destroy two more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted July 7, 2015 Report Share Posted July 7, 2015 Inquisitors seem like the epitome of that. The ultimate construct combining all metallic arts, born from the power of destruction itself and in order to destroy. Harmony knows how unstable and destructive they can be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VindicationKnight Posted July 19, 2015 Report Share Posted July 19, 2015 For the Lord Ruler and duralumin examples I figured that was just like piercing a cloud with enhanced bronze, a product of raw power bypassing the natural protection of copper. I believe that's even mentioned by the characters in the book. The Zane example is odd though...it's possible she wasn't using copper for whatever reason (to make her bronze work better?) or it could be an inconsistency or maybe the work of Ruin? I don't think we know enough to conclusively say what was going on there, though there are a lot of interesting possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted July 19, 2015 Report Share Posted July 19, 2015 I do believe Vin stopped thinking that constant smoking was a good idea against emotional allomancy when Marsh brought up that it was better to be manipulated and being able to notice than to be completely blind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted July 19, 2015 Report Share Posted July 19, 2015 I do believe Vin stopped thinking that constant smoking was a good idea against emotional allomancy when Marsh brought up that it was better to be manipulated and being able to notice than to be completely blind. ...except she also doesn't have her bronze on to notice. She's just as blind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted July 19, 2015 Report Share Posted July 19, 2015 Even obligators are trained to notice when your emotions don't make sense. Checking the bronzepulse is more precise, but it should be noticeable. Of course she doesn't notice it here, but hey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted July 20, 2015 Report Share Posted July 20, 2015 Maybe her hemalurgic earring made her more vulnerable to emotional allomancy? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UndertakerSheep Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 Vin's hemalurgic earing gave her the ability to pierce copperclouds with her bronze, something that bronze usually cannot do. We don't know what kind of spike Zane had, do we? Maybe his spike gave him the ability to effect emotions through a coppercloud, something that brass/zinc usually cannot do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeiryWriter Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 Vin's hemalurgic earing gave her the ability to pierce copperclouds with her bronze, something that bronze usually cannot do. We don't know what kind of spike Zane had, do we? Maybe his spike gave him the ability to effect emotions through a coppercloud, something that brass/zinc usually cannot do. Zane's spike was for Allomantic steel, which gave him greater precision with his steelpushes. And technically piercing copperclouds is just a matter of strength, so Vin's spike didn't give her the ability to pierce them as a distinct ability, it just increased her strength with bronze to the point where she could do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 Interesting question... With double Brass, you'd likely have the power to Soothe a Smoker. Would you be able to do it with any degree of subtlety? Would your Soothing simply be lessened by the power level of the Coppercloud or would it be like kicking in a door, where the act of breaching obviates a capacity for subtlety? Would there be any way to know you were Pushing just enough to overcome the cloud and had just a smidgeon more power to actually affect the person? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 TLR successfully penetrates Vin's Copper-burning and it doesn't come across as door-kicking, though I can't recall if we have a WoB stating that she was simply more susceptible because of her earring or if it was just how strong his Soothing was... ... So CognitivePulsePattern might have a point, now that I think of it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 It was a blanket and powerful depression of all emotion immediately recognizable as the Lord Ruler's Soothing... How was it not door-kicking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 My reading of the effect was that if TLR was trying to depress everyone by 10 points Vin's copper blocked out 9 of it but 1 still trickled through. Whether the whole "I would like to make everyone depressed" effect was itself subtle is secondary to the fact (as I read it) that all 10 didn't get through the moment TLR's soothing "kicked in the door". Or are you saying instead that there was perhaps some secondary mechanism by which Vin became aware that she was still being Soothed, independent of her noticing the effects on her emotions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Oh, I see, and you're correct, my analogy was as ever awful. Kicking in the door was the wrong way to say it. I just mean that Soothing such as Zane did on Vin was a subtle, delicate thing, and that overcoming her Coppercloud like the Lord Ruler did required too much force and too specific (and large) a strength to both overcome it and still be subtle. And I know we got the quote to prove that wasn't the case here, anyway, and I didn't mean to poorly express myself and derail this topic so far. I was just musing about a thought inspired by this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicsmith1412 Posted July 24, 2015 Report Share Posted July 24, 2015 (edited) Something I would like to note here, just having finished rereading the series, is that I believe Vin stopped using a coppercloud once she became Elend's bodyguard. At one point in the third book, she mentions that she wants a mistborn to come to her and so she doesn't feel that a coppercloud is necessary. Zane was also always able to find and watch her as she patrolled, even when she wasn't where they last sparred. I assumed that she stopped burning copper all the time so that assassins would find and come to her first so that she could deal with them. Remember- at that point she was no longer trying to hide her Allomancy. Instead, she made it her primary identity for most of the second book. On Zane's use of emotional Allomancy, however, I agree that Ruin might have had something to do with her not noticing. He made her ignore her compulsion to wear an earring and, in the third book, her need to find the shelters. Why not have her ignore Zane's manipulations? Edited July 24, 2015 by vicsmith1412 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted July 26, 2015 Report Share Posted July 26, 2015 (edited) TLR successfully penetrates Vin's Copper-burning and it doesn't come across as door-kicking, though I can't recall if we have a WoB stating that she was simply more susceptible because of her earring or if it was just how strong his Soothing was... ... So CognitivePulsePattern might have a point, now that I think of it... Just a thing that I notice during a TFE reread: Kelsier didn't notice TLR's soothing going throught his coopercloud, or at least he didn't until before his death, when TLR was focusing in him. This gives credit to the theory that hemalurgy weakened the barriers of her mind. Edited July 26, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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