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@some 

It seems that I lack a lot of knowledge: How do you come up with apostasy now? 

 

 

And, I apologize again, but your answer to my previous post feels sort of overly didactic/precocious. That may be caused by me not being a native English speaker (so that I might misunderstand something). But I dare say that it's more the wording ("In terms of that quote, just read the description ...", "Correlate this to the Apostasy and you understand ...").

 

I love this community because of it's good mood/tension and it's big tolerance towards *laymen*, and I really hope that will remain common practice. 

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Duralumin is used to store Spirtual connection. While filling a duraluminmind, other people's awareness and friendship of the Feruchemist will be reduced. Tapping the metalmind will allow the user to form trust relationships with others much faster.

Form a spiritual connection, ask it to change. Voila. Works just like a Soulstamp.

 

You're comparing two distinct magic systems whose rules have been shown to differ. Roshar's magic is not based on an Internal/External system as we can readily see from Surgebinding and Soulcasting; in the latter you change aspects of external objects to something else so I don't know where you're getting that it's strictly internal from.

 

Personally I think Surgebinding alters the orientation of an object's gravitational pull in the Spiritual realm. By first disconnecting it from the Physical and applying a new rule to it temporarily. This occurs with objects outside of the Surgebinder and within himself. It is external and internal. As is Soulcasting, evidenced by Jasnah converting a large rock to smoke.

 

Again if you really want to debate that all Shard magic follow the same principles just look at Elantrian magic and how basic it is to simply relate it to spell-casting. As Voidus said, don't just invent theories and spin them off as fact to suit your expectations. The whole point of having a debate is to present and then discuss the flaws while presenting us with new considerations to patch up the gaps. All I'm seeing at the moment is you fiercely holding onto what you've theorised and dismissing everyone who is trying to develop YOUR theory.

 

We're not criticising for the sake of being mean and insulting, the fact that people are commenting on your thread so extensively shows genuine interest that you've sparked. What you interpret from one thing, someone else might interpret something else.

Edited by Lyrebon
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I just noticed something while reading through this...Brandon mentioned symbol on the cover that matched one in these charts. The following pictures seem to match.

attachicon.gifchart crab.GIF     attachicon.gifWok Crab.GIF

I always assumed that the main figure on the cover was one of the Knights Radiant or Dalinar. If that is true what connection would they have to Odium?

 

While it may not be what BS meant about the cover, still an awesome find!

 

I've used your find over http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/1640-isasik-shulin/ to add to the collection. If you have any thoughts about that symbol surrounding Kharbranth in the picture or any other cool finds, please feel free to add and speculate. I've been driven crazy over those symbols and have been trying to get people to add to them for years.

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Soulcasting is internal. You change your own spirit to be charming and irresistible, then you can persuade things to follow your requests. Correlate it to Internal Enhancement on Scadrial.

Gravity changes how the Planet affects something. Seth isn't changing how his own mass pulls on people.

 

This makes a lot less sense. I don't think Shallan did anything to make the goblet like her. The goblet practically begged her to change it, but that seemed to do more with the goblet's soul/history than something particular to Shallan. It reminds me a lot like the objects from TES. They want to be nice and well-taken care of or appreciated. I feel this is very similar to what most humans feel--a need to be accepted in the group and feel appreciated.

 

 

Those are both a bit of a stretch I'd say, Soulcasting changes something about other objects, there's no indication that it changes your spirit to be charming, the only real example we have was the goblet which didn't require any convincing at all and involved giving the investiture directly to the object to be Soulcasted.

As for Szeth when he Lashes himself he changes his own spiritual bond to the earth, which should be internal.

 

Agreed, and basically the same thought on the matter as I said above.

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his makes a lot less sense. I don't think Shallan did anything to make the goblet like her. The goblet practically begged her to change it, but that seemed to do more with the goblet's soul/history than something particular to Shallan. It reminds me a lot like the objects from TES. They want to be nice and well-taken care of or appreciated. I feel this is very similar to what most humans feel--a need to be accepted in the group and feel appreciated.

 

I can agree with an object, especially a piece of furniture, wanting to be a fine work, and appreciated for its beauty.

 

But would a goblet prefer to be a pool of blood instead?

I assumed that was more a result of Shallan's inexperience with soulcasting.

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Voidus, on 26 Apr 2013 - 06:36, said:

Because Windrunning directly influences the force of gravity, but Inertia is defined by having a direction Inertia without changing mass at all though would just be a Basic Lashing, so I don't really know what you're meaning here.

You might be thinking of momentum, which does have a direction. Inertia is measured in the same units as mass.

Making something easier or harder to move, or to stop, without changing its direction, is nothing like the Basic Lashing. If Szeth wants to get up to a certain momentum to charge into a Voidbringer, he has to go very fast, and he's going to get splattered when he hits. An inertia-based power wouldn't be based on getting to high speeds, and its users wouldn't get splattered if they hit something.

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You might be thinking of momentum, which does have a direction. Inertia is measured in the same units as mass.

Making something easier or harder to move, or to stop, without changing its direction, is nothing like the Basic Lashing. If Szeth wants to get up to a certain momentum to charge into a Voidbringer, he has to go very fast, and he's going to get splattered when he hits. An inertia-based power wouldn't be based on getting to high speeds, and its users wouldn't get splattered if they hit something.

We do actually see something quite like this when Szeth half-lashes something upwards so he can kick it at some people (I think it was a table) and a multiple downward Lashing would have a similar effect to increasing your Inertia. Granted it's not an exact correlation but I think they're far too similar to use both.

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And, I apologize again, but your answer to my previous post feels sort of overly didactic/precocious. 

Overly Didactic/Precocious describes me pretty well, along with some less savory words you kindly left out. Humble isn't really one I play well with, but I'll try and be less attached to my theory and more open to people squishing it into better shape. And if I get out of line Rubix can always give me the SPECULATION hammer again. 

 

I edited the post you were discussing so it doesn't skip over half the argument, hopefully it makes more sense now. I left the overly didactic part there though, cause you pegged it so well. Now for an attempt to play nicely... 

 

@54: Let's see if other ways of looking at Transformation can work better. Lots of people are saying that Gravity is a Spiritual connection that Windrunners can change. Could Transformation be a way to CREATE similar spiritual connections? How could those connections be used to make something change shape. 

 

@57: Lets scrap Inertia and go back to Physical Strength. 

Edited by Isomere
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Wow, I step away from this thread for a day, and it blows up! Isomere, I hope you won't get discouraged by the apparent bashing you seem to be getting. Kick chull theory you got there. I don't agree with it all (or even understand it all), but major props for fleshing it out so thoroughly. I haven't had to stress my brain this hard trying to grasp a theory since grad school! Love you guys!

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Overly Didactic/Precocious describes me pretty well, along with some less savory words you kindly left out. Humble isn't really one I play well with, but I'll try and be less attached to my theory and more open to people squishing it into better shape. And if I get out of line Rubix can always give me the SPECULATION hammer again. 

 

I edited the post you were discussing so it doesn't skip over half the argument, hopefully it makes more sense now. I left the overly didactic part there though, cause you pegged it so well. Now for an attempt to play nicely... 

 

@54: Let's see if other ways of looking at Transformation can work better. Lots of people are saying that Gravity is a Spiritual connection that Windrunners can change. Could Transformation be a way to CREATE similar spiritual connections? How could those connections be used to make something change shape. 

 

@57: Lets scrap Inertia and go back to Physical Strength. 

 

Isomere, on 26 Apr 2013 - 13:22, said:

@meg. I've never met or communicated with Sanderson except through his books. This is the first time I have ever posted on any public forum anywhere that I can recall. I tried to include my process for thinking up the theory, and all of the ideas come from trying to really GRASP the way this stuff works. My "ahah" moment was when Shallan's Memory was added as the very last Surge in the Table. It threw my mind for a loop, but once I understood the symbolism and forms it all went Click in my mind and I pretty much understood the entire thing right then and there.

EDIT: In terms of "Traditional Vorin doctrine is well established as corrupt"  Mea Culpa. I've been discussing the book for a couple years with people that all assume Vorinism is corrupt, and I didn't realize this forum hasn't generally accepted this idea. I think the guy that wrote the Ars Arcana was unsure if the information they have is accurate, which is why he wrote, "the preceding list is an imperfect gathering of traditional Vorin symbolism".

 

Note to Meg: Quote! Always quote and don't forget that posts can be edited later on. 

 

 

I'm kind of disappointed about how you dealt with my question. 

 

 

 

@some

It seems that I lack a lot of knowledge: How do you come up with apostasy now?

 

 

Instead of giving me an answer, you edited your post (which I foolishly didn't quote) so that readers of this thread don't know why I'm asking this question. And, unlike you said, you didn't leave the *critical* part and the part which contained your supposed conclusion that a corrupted religion is or leads to apostasy (very paraphrased). And there came my question from. But, with or without your edit, I don't have any more interest in an explanation of yours about corrupt religions and apostasy. 

 

I'm really sorry for offtopic but one further thing itches me: I wrote what I felt when reading your (now edited) part of that post, and I didn't "kindly leave out" other words. 

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Hey Meg: I really don't want to discuss real-world religion on this thread. It was a mistake to include as a parallel, and I can make the same argument without the unexplained and unsupported comparison.

Idea: earth air fire water doesn't work because the Ars Arcana says 7 is oil.

Response: the Ars might be wrong.

I do tend to say things that are complete speculation as fact. I'll be more careful about that in the future. This entire thread is based on nothing more than an analysis and interpretation of the relationships I'm discovering in the Tables. I don't think it is all correct, but the overall symmetry and symbolism starts to make sense if you assume the two shards merged.

Your theory is based upon what, to me, is a flawed premise - that the surges map onto a grid of External-Internal and Physical-Mental-Temporal-Enhancement.

Organizing them for internal/external was accidental. The boring explanation of how it came up is here:

I have two premises:

1) shardic intent theory is true http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/3294-shardic-lens-theory/#entry53583

2) The Radiants table splits spren into cognitive and physical groups.

I thought the x axis was random, but wanted to organize vertically so powers that are primarily physical are on top, and cognitive on bottom. We already know two Windrunner powers, so I put them in the top right. Since Order 3 is bright red and the Surge Glyph looks like waving flames I tried to find a primary power that deals with fire. There is a Feruchemy power for warmth. This correlates with Allomancy heat and cold, but they were emotional temperatures which makes sense for these to be closer to Cognitive. Wait a minute...If you correlate to Allomancy the right side are all external powers. And if I use the corresponding internal power on the other side it gives Shallan memory. Probably not coincidence.

Many people are displeased with this grouping structure because they feel each Surge is capable of affecting both internal and external things. I agree. So is the problem with the structure and we need to change the Surge grouping, or is the problem with our interpretation of what internal/external represents on Roshar. Perhaps the grouping is more just a reflection of how the 16 shards initially split apart.

Another approach. I would argue that you can use the internal powers of Scadrial to affect outside things (Thug bashing your face in), and you can use external powers to affect yourself (coin push levitation). It seems to represent the source of the effect rather than the end result.

Edited by Isomere
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regarding the idea of the shards merging, I just noticed this quote from Syl during my current reread (emphasis added):

 

"People are discord (...) You all act differently and think differently. Nothing else is like that -- animals act alike, and all spren are, in a sense, virtually the same individual." (chapter 17, pg. 262, hardcover)

 

Brandon has said in the past that some spren are of Honor and some are of Cultivation, right? But if they are also "virtually the same individual," then does that support this idea of the shards being merged somehow?

 

Not sure if this helps or not, but I hadn't seen it mentioned, so I thought I would point it out.

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This is definitely interesting... there's an argument to be made about whether she actually does mean literally all spren, or all spren of similar type (all windspren are the same, all flamespren etc). The latter reinforces Ideal Form theory. The former complicates matters significantly - unless we're talking Identity, which I believe has been confirmed as primarily Spiritual in nature, so this could be to do with that? So many questions...  

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Another thought on how the magic on Roshar is divided from here:

 

NADINE

Will The Way of Kings series be based on one of the worlds and magic systems you have already created or are you inventing a totally new one for this series?

BRANDON SANDERSON

It will be new. There are going to be a lot of different types of magic in the world (I see there's a question below asking about that, so I'll answer more there.) But there will be two main magic systems for the first book. The first will deal with the manipulation of fundamental forces. (Gravity, Strong/weak atomic forces, Electromagnetic force, that sort of thing.) The second will be a transformation based magic system, whereby people can transform objects into one of the world's ten elements.

 

The question is, do both of these two different (?) systems fall under KR/surges, or are they two separate things?

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The question is, do both of these two different (?) systems fall under KR/surges, or are they two separate things?

The quote sure makes it sound like Soulcasting is its own system, not a surge, doesn't it? That would even let Jasnah be #2 and Shallan #6 with no conflicts.

 

I think the quote is outdated though, and Brandon changed his mind, and it's related to Learned/Giving and Just/Confident being swapped in the Ars Arcanum. He made Transformation a surge and had to move one of Jasnah & Shallan so they could be adjacent. Just a guess, but either way everything we've heard since the book came out makes Soulcasting sound like one of the surges.

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You have seen one of the other Surges, which is Soulcasting—Transformation—though which other Surges that mixes with to form orders of the Knights Radiant I am not specifically going to say at this time.

Yeah, Soulcasting is definitely a Surge.

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“For now, know that the pure form of an Essence is quite easy to make; the eight kinds of blood are easier to create than water, for instance.”

This makes me concerned about my groupings of the elements. The ars says 7 is oil, and I had a theory of how that could have come about. All the soulcasters we have seen use at least two different gems. My thought was that water really is a primary element, but not easily made with a combination of two different gems. That theory doesn't help here, Jasnah should have no trouble finding the 10 primary elements.

I'm pretty disappointed since the way I organized them matches with colors and shapes, fits all the known parts of the ars except water and gives meaning to all the connections in the diagram.

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That's the same quote I was thinking of, with water being a form of blood not a separate element. Soulcasting seems like one part of Vorin symbolism that wouldn't get corrupted with time, since they still need to know which gems to use for which Soulcasters. (Emerald for plant-based food, etc.)

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“For now, know that the pure form of an Essence is quite easy to make; the eight kinds of blood are easier to create than water, for instance.”

 

 

That's the same quote I was thinking of, with water being a form of blood not a separate element. 

 

I don't think Jasnah is saying that water is a form of blood. She says the 8 forms of blood are EASIER to make than water, implying it's not one of them. What I find interesting here is that Jasnah appears to say here that but water isn't a pure essence, which is odd.

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I don't think Jasnah is saying that water is a form of blood. She says the 8 forms of blood are EASIER to make than water, implying it's not one of them. What I find interesting here is that Jasnah appears to say here that but water isn't a pure essence, which is odd.

I guess I was merging Jasnah's comment and what the Ars Arcanum says about "Blood, all non-oil liquid" being under a single category. Maybe they wouldn't say that water is a kind of blood, but just that it's close enough to blood that Soulcasting can be used to create it?
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I guess I was merging Jasnah's comment and what the Ars Arcanum says about "Blood, all non-oil liquid" being under a single category. Maybe they wouldn't say that water is a kind of blood, but just that it's close enough to blood that Soulcasting can be used to create it?

 

Hmm, that may make sense. I need to take a closer look at the Ars Arcanum--it's been too long! Thanks for pointing it out :)

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  • 3 weeks later...

I just thought I'd drop this here as something that seems to imply that this theory is not entirely correct.

STORMATLAS
Is Cultivation's holder still alive?

BRANDON SANDERSON
Yes.
Source

 
So Cultivation is clearly still knocking about, not mindless or entirely Splintered for now.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Were Cultivation and Honor romantically involved?

BRANDON SANDERSON Yes.

This quote strongly supports Honor and Cultivation merging in some manner. What does it mean for two people without physical bodies to make love? We have been told that Shards inhabit power and energy the way humans inhabit flesh and blood, and I see no more intimate relationship than having these energies merge to create something new.

Edit: here is the source: http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=985/#5

Edited by Isomere
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