Oudeis Posted June 27, 2015 Report Share Posted June 27, 2015 Zane successfully uses pain to dampen Ruins voice. Vin hears Ruin as shes being tortured to death until Marsh removes the earring. A difference between steel and bronze? Ruins direct voice versus passive? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metanat Posted June 27, 2015 Report Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) With Zane Ruin was whispering at him and trying to make him think he was crazy and that the voice was his own mind. With Vin though she already knew it was Ruin and he was actually talking to her so he was louder. Edited June 27, 2015 by Metanat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted June 27, 2015 Report Share Posted June 27, 2015 Vaguely relevant, perhaps: As has been established, Ruin’s control over creatures—and, indeed, an Allomancer’s control over them—grows weaker when that creature is going through some extreme emotions. (Like the koloss blood frenzy.) This has to do with the relationship between the Cognitive Realm, the Physical Realm, and the Spiritual Realm—of which I don’t have time to speak right now. (source) Maybe Zane was going through heavier emotional turmoil whenever he did his pain thing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted June 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2015 ...Vin was being tortured to death. While the world died. I categorically refuse to believe she took it with a sort of stoic acceptance, and less emotion than Zane sitting down to dinner with Straff and idly cutting his arm, being careful not to cause any real damage. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted June 27, 2015 Report Share Posted June 27, 2015 I don't believe Ruin was ever actually free at any point Zane was alive no? Maybe he's easier to shut up when sealed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulcastJam Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 Control over her is not necessarily the same as talking to her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VindicationKnight Posted July 4, 2015 Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 Letting Zane think he has more control over himself than he actually does in order to prevent him looking for a more effective solution is exactly the sort of thing I can see Ruin doing tbh. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ecohansen Posted July 4, 2015 Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 I don't know, Vindication. After Vin and Elend tell some very, very transparent lies that succeed in fooling Ruin, Vin thinks (HoA p.312) It seemed a flimsy ruse to her. And yet, she knew that was because she could see Elend's confusion, could read his lies in his eyes. She understood him, as he understood her. It was an understanding that required love. And she suspected that was something Ruin would never be able to comprehend. When facing any given thing, Ruin's chief desire is to destroy it. He is incapable of putting himself in another person's shoes, and so is incapable of reading their emotions or motivations with any subtlety. Although he would certainly take pleasure from torturing Zane in the way you suggest, if he could do it, he can't. In order to realize that he could, he would have to empathize with Zane, and that's something he can't do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted July 4, 2015 Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 I'm fairly sure, as a fellow human, he can still comprehend to some extent even if he can't really feel it anymore. After all, he's been playing humankind for fools for thousands of years now. It takes a certain level of understanding for human reactions and thoughts to do that. And love can be fairly destructive. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VindicationKnight Posted July 4, 2015 Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 I don't know, Vindication. After Vin and Elend tell some very, very transparent lies that succeed in fooling Ruin, Vin thinks (HoA p.312) When facing any given thing, Ruin's chief desire is to destroy it. He is incapable of putting himself in another person's shoes, and so is incapable of reading their emotions or motivations with any subtlety. Although he would certainly take pleasure from torturing Zane in the way you suggest, if he could do it, he can't. In order to realize that he could, he would have to empathize with Zane, and that's something he can't do. When faced with the idea of things that go against his Intent entirely Ruin has some difficulty it's true, but he also successfully manipulated millions of people over thousands of years, knew exactly what hallucinations to craft to manipulate Spook and the First Citizen, molded Vin's entire personality from her subconscious mind with her thinking it was her own memories until he revealed himself and outplaying generations of scholars from the shadows. Barring divine intervention or literally being told about him the only human who ever realized that he even existed was Kwann. Generally speaking he's super-humanly smart and manipulative, it's only a number of tiny blind spots that trip him up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted July 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 (edited) Barring divine intervention or literally being told about him the only human who ever realized that he even existed was Kwann. Untrue. Yomen was spiked, knew something was up, and took the spike out of himself, realizing that the Lord Ruler he was seeing wasn't the real deal. Since we know very few people got spiked in the first place, even just a few people able to realize what's going on and overcome it are statistically significant. Now, sure, Yomen didn't deduce "Your name is Ruin", that we know of, but that's a fairly specific detail. He might not have realized it was a fraction of a larger God. But he was able to deduce, hey, this metal stuck in me is related to a supernatural spirit that's trying to manipulate me, which is a large part of the basic premise. Zane's whole thing confuses me. We have a bunch of evidence showing that Ruin wants Zin and Elend to stay together, from the end of the first book when Ruin whispers that she should go back to him, to the final book where Ruin flat-out says, "The two of you were finding my atium for me." So what was with Zane? We know Ruin didn't want Vin dead, since she was days away from fulfilling Ruin's plan and freeing him. It doesn't seem that he wanted her to leave Elend. What exactly was he doing with Zane? Did Ruin know Vin was going to be able to kill an atium burner? Did Ruin influence it somehow, via Zane's spike, would it perhaps have been more difficult for Vin to manipulate the future on her first try if Ruin hadn't been there? I guess the one thing is, Zane was encouraging her to leave the city behind and seek out the Well. But... surely Ruin knew those things were contradictory? He may not have known where the atium stash was, but he must have known where the Well was, if only because his mind was right there. Was he afraid Vin would die when the armies took the city? Did he think he could get Vin out for a few days, trigger the attack, so she'd come back with no one to fight, no one to be killed by, before she came back and found the Millenial power? I guess it's plausible but it seems like a stretch. Surely it would have been easier to, one way or another, ensure the safety of the city. Manipulate Zane into manipulating Straff into warring with Cett, per the original plan. Who does Ruin care rules Luthadel, so long as Vin is there to do her thing at the Well at the right time? Whisper to TenSoon, convince him to betray Zane, whisper that the First Contract is no longer valid and he's free to protect Vin. (Though I guess this last one is something else Ruin couldn't understand.) I dunno. I just don't get it. Edited July 5, 2015 by Oudeis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zathoth Posted July 5, 2015 Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 Theory time The entire Vin thing was all Zane and not Ruin, at all. The only thing that really supports this theory (other than I cant think of anything else that make sense) is that Zane wanted Vin to save him. So them running away together would silence the voice in his head and free him from Straff. At least that was probably Zane's idea. Ruin was still sealed and even if Zane was a bit unstable Ruin did not have complete control of him. I think we are giving Ruin a bit too much credit for how manipulative he actually was. It is possible that his plan was about to fail there and then. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colours Posted July 7, 2015 Report Share Posted July 7, 2015 I remember it being mentioned that Ruin couldn't help but assist the Lord Ruler at times when he was being destructive. The Zane thing probably happened by a similar principle. In fact, maybe Ruin helped out a bit every time anyone tries to kill anyone else; it's quite plausible that in pre-Harmony Scadrial, murder was just that tiny bit easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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