Adonalsium's opposite?

[Vortaan]

I can't help but feel that the emphasis Brandon puts on Identity in some of the AMA comments, the Cognitive realm, and this opposition go hand in hand. I can't explain why, but I think that Identity is probably way more important for Shards than it is for normal people.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Well, remember this is a *conscious* opposition.  So I don't think it's something like 'the cognitive realm'.

[Vortaan]

Well, remember this is a *conscious* opposition.  So I don't think it's something like 'the cognitive realm'.

 

More like the way a force could oppose Adonalsium would be to focus primarily on the Cognitive aspect. It would be an interesting parallel between faith and... I don't want to say reason or logic, but science is not the best description either. Intellectualism? Secularism? 

[Morsk]

More like the way a force could oppose Adonalsium would be to focus primarily on the Cognitive aspect. It would be an interesting parallel between faith and... I don't want to say reason or logic, but science is not the best description either. Intellectualism? Secularism?

I like this, but I see it as philosophical differences that aren't really about faith or religion. I can't find the quote I'm looking for though! (It was a few weeks, maybe a month ago... I think. Brandon described the metaphysics as a mash-up between Plato's forms and "everything is alive".) So there's a conflict between very different sources of meaning, with the Spiritual being about universal principles, and the Cognitive about perception and consensus. There are purely physical theories of meaning in philosophy too, but I don't know if the cosmere would go there, or if it ignores them.

What kind of entity would actually oppose Plato's forms though? Say they showed up in the real world; we discover that all war is because of a universal principle of War, and all peace is because of a principle of Peace. Why would something oppose that? I could see people taking sides, but why would someone oppose the whole system?

[Dros]

2) This depends on definitions. The effects of Adonalsium permeate everything, and Adonalsium is also the source of the Shards. It is possible to find a magic that isn't DIRECTLY powered by a specific shard, however, though most of these would have been set up before the shattering and would be much smaller in scope than things like Allomancy and Surgebinding.

Could the Old Magic be one of those that was set up before the Shattering?

[Dros]

I like this, but I see it as philosophical differences that aren't really about faith or religion. I can't find the quote I'm looking for though! (It was a few weeks, maybe a month ago... I think. Brandon described the metaphysics as a mash-up between Plato's forms and "everything is alive".) So there's a conflict between very different sources of meaning, with the Spiritual being about universal principles, and the Cognitive about perception and consensus. There are purely physical theories of meaning in philosophy too, but I don't know if the cosmere would go there, or if it ignores them.

What kind of entity would actually oppose Plato's forms though? Say they showed up in the real world; we discover that all war is because of a universal principle of War, and all peace is because of a principle of Peace. Why would something oppose that? I could see people taking sides, but why would someone oppose the whole system?

 

Maybe it's High Politics on a universal scale. BS has said he imagines the entirety of his Cosmere to be encapsulated in something the size of a small galaxy.  If the range of Andolasium's influence was just Brandon's Cosmere, there might just be quite a few entities equal to or greater than Andolasium inhabiting other Cosemeres or galaxies. Perhaps Andolasium was growing powerful enough to threaten outside forces, maybe Andolasium just pissed off the wrong superbeing.

 

OR- perhaps there is a group like the Illuminati/Ghostbloods that oppose the Shard's power and influence, not because they disagree with the system as a whole, but they think such power and influence should not be held by just one or even sixteen entities.

[Windrunner]

See, the way I read that quote is that the whole "universe" is still the cosmere, but all the events in the stories are inside a single galaxy.

[Vortaan]

I like this, but I see it as philosophical differences that aren't really about faith or religion. I can't find the quote I'm looking for though! (It was a few weeks, maybe a month ago... I think. Brandon described the metaphysics as a mash-up between Plato's forms and "everything is alive".) So there's a conflict between very different sources of meaning, with the Spiritual being about universal principles, and the Cognitive about perception and consensus. There are purely physical theories of meaning in philosophy too, but I don't know if the cosmere would go there, or if it ignores them.

What kind of entity would actually oppose Plato's forms though? Say they showed up in the real world; we discover that all war is because of a universal principle of War, and all peace is because of a principle of Peace. Why would something oppose that? I could see people taking sides, but why would someone oppose the whole system?

 

Ever play Knights of the Old Republic 2? I'm thinking of Kreia and her views on the Force. In the Star Wars universe, the Force itself is pretty benign, and really auto-correcting. There's no reason really to try and dispose of it... unless you dislike the concept of everyone being influenced by a force beyond their control.

[darkanimereal1]

I notice a lot of compounding Adonalsium with God in the forums.  Just because it is a force of creation doesn't make it God.  Since it was opposed, and apparently destroyed, it is clearly not God as we understand it.  I don't think that just because BS is a religious person, that he is any less creative in the worldbuilding of his religions.  

And just because Adonalsium was opposed, it doesn't mean that it's opponent was it's opposite. I think neither Adonalsium or whatever opposed it is an idealized good or evil.  The presence of the Shard Odium pretty much guarantees that Adonalsium's nature was more mixed than that.

 

I always kind of think of Yin-yang here. Not "good vs bad" but two different and opposing forces. I could totally see that Adonalsium isn't "good or bad," which is why it can have different parts that seem to oppose each other. 

Also, the opposite of creation would be void, right?

[Observer]

What we really need to know is whether or not Adonalsium created Yolen and humans. That's a major step towards understanding.

 

 

Adonalsium created life from the void using sheer force of will. The void got pissed and hit it back. "Hey! That's my nonexistence space!"

[ROSHtafARian]

I was rereading the sample chapters of Liar of Partinel recently, and all the talk of dead gods really jumped out of me.  Granted, anything unpublished isn't canon, but it made me think....

 

We constantly refer to Adonalsium as the power of Creation, but really, all quotes from Brandon just equate Adonalsium's power with the power of Creation.  He's never alluded to Adonalsium being Creation or the source of that power itself.  So what I'm wondering is....we know Adonalsium had opposition in some form.  What if he/it also had peers?  Could Adonalsium have been just one of many gods, and somehow the others died until it was all that was left?  With whatever killed the other gods being its opposing force?

[The Count]

I was rereading the sample chapters of Liar of Partinel recently, and all the talk of dead gods really jumped out of me.  Granted, anything unpublished isn't canon, but it made me think....

 

We constantly refer to Adonalsium as the power of Creation, but really, all quotes from Brandon just equate Adonalsium's power with the power of Creation.  He's never alluded to Adonalsium being Creation or the source of that power itself.  So what I'm wondering is....we know Adonalsium had opposition in some form.  What if he/it also had peers?  Could Adonalsium have been just one of many gods, and somehow the others died until it was all that was left?  With whatever killed the other gods being its opposing force?

 

Or maybe, after all the other gods died, Adonalsium was so lonely that it committed suicide and shattered itself so that new gods could arise. 

 

 

Just because it was opposed, doesn't mean that said opposition had anything to do with the actual shattering.

Edited June 25, 2013 by MadRand

[makromag]

Just throwing in my two cents, maybe the force "opposing" Adonalsium is paradox. Adonalsium is the force that drives and creates everything around the Cosmere. Nature, on the small scale as well as the large, always makes sense, even if that sense eludes us. So the opposite to that would be paradox, something that creates inconsistencies, yet is itself part of the natural order of things. It's very existence an impossibility, it throws a wrench into nature's wheel (refference intended) somehow causing the origin of all creation to break

[aeromancer]

All shards are of Adolnasium. That being said, this opposing force cannot be difined by whatever pre-existing categories we have, (i.e. Cognitive, Physical, Spiritual). Adolnasium seems to cover every base, so this Unidentified Opposing Force (UOF) is anti-matter!

[Lady_Yasha]

My first thought was the Fain life in the Liar of Partinel chapters. In Warbreaker, Hoid says he came from "a distant place where two lands meet and gods have died". Adonalsium could've been the power behind one of those two lands.

I actually like Odium as part of Adonalsium. I think part of the tension in the backstory is struggling with the idea of how Odium or Ruin aren't necessarily evil.

 

Neither are necessarily evil, just enacting the provisions of their Intent. Scenes in Hero of Ages might suggest Ati wasn't always villainous and we know that a Shard's Intent molds the holder. Odium's holder could have been a saint before (s)he picked up the Shard.

 

At this juncture it's too vague to estimate exactly what Brandon was referring to. You could weave your theories all night long and still doubt yourself. Until we learn more about the 17th Shard and Hoid's intent (who for all intents and purposes could be hunting Hoid down for shattering Adonalsium, or they shattered him and Hoid is the last remaining agent of Adonalsium - like I said: vague), we can't know for sure.

 

Although the question Brandon answered in the affirmative used "opposed," contrary to "opposite of Adonalsium." So it's entirely possible that Adonalsium's opposition is not of the same being and could be anything or anyone.

Edited July 13, 2013 by Lyrebon

[MasterGhandalf]

Odium's holder could have been a saint before (s)he picked up the Shard.

 

Odium's holder was no saint. The Letter uses words like "crafty" and "loathsome" to describe Rayse, and Word of Brandon indicates that part of what makes Odium so dangerous is how well matched the Shard is to its holder's personality. Seems safe to say that Rayse was no Ati.

[Morsk]

Neither are necessarily evil, just enacting the provisions of their Intent. Scenes in Hero of Ages might suggest Ati wasn't always villainous and we know that a Shard's Intent molds the holder. Odium's holder could have been a saint before (s)he picked up the Shard.

I was replying to the first post in the thread, and its idea that Odium isn't part of Adonalsium but is somehow opposed to it. It's not about whether Rayse's defense attorney gets to blame the Shard in court, but whether the Shard is something foreign to Adonalsium, or something we'd be better off without. It's probably ruled out by canon directly, because we're told Odium is one of the sixteen. But besides that, I find the stories more interesting if Odium is something they can't just get rid of, if it's an important part of human nature, and they have to work with it or around it instead. We've heard Ruin's excuse that it's necessary to life. We haven't heard Odium's excuse yet, but it should be interesting whatever it is.

At this juncture it's too vague to estimate exactly what Brandon was referring to. You could weave your theories all night long and still doubt yourself. Until we learn more about the 17th Shard and Hoid's intent (who for all intents and purposes could be hunting Hoid down for shattering Adonalsium, or they shattered him and Hoid is the last remaining agent of Adonalsium - like I said: vague), we can't know for sure.

You say this as if it's a bad thing! Isn't weaving theories all night long and still doubting ourselves endless entertainment?

[Windborne Sword]

Odium serves a distinct purpose, and that is the ability to bring hatred and anger into the mix of intents that make up Adonalsium. If anyone hasn't read A Memory of Light I'm posting spoilers for it below so look away.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Spoilers:

 

 

When Rand is "fighting" the Dark One in Shayol Ghul and he creates a possible world without the dark one, he comes to realize that without the evil inside of everyone, which is what the Dark One is (Humanity's collective evil) that the world is very wrong. People need evil inside them or it won't be complete. 

 

 

Odium has it's purpose in Adonalsium, and it's a necessary evil.

[Shardlet]

I think that Odium is more an attribute of Adonalsium rather than Odium brings something to Adonalsium.  I mean, it may be a chicken or the egg thing, but I am inclined to say Adonalsium began complete rather than was originally assembled of various attributes and intents.

[Cheese Ninja]

I've been thinking lately, with the terminology used to describe Adonalsium (Shattering and Shards) maybe it was the unnatural crystallization of a formerly pervasive force itself.  Perhaps its power used to exist with equal distribution throughout the Cosmere, but some people/event caused it to all concentrate to one point, and it was later Shattered.  If so, perhaps Hoid's goal isn't just to reassemble it, but also to dissolve it back into its former diluted state, in which it could best counter its opposing force.