Nature of Odium's Shard

[SOM1else]

so me and my dad both read WoK and when he finished he had an idea. he said that somewhere he remembered symbols on the bone armor the Parshendi have and it reminded him of the Dahkor priests, he didn't know about Adonalsium but this got me thinking, the definition of Odium is

[Shivertongue]

I'm gonna say no because that's not what I want to happen.

Another reason, however, is that a Shard's name had never before been indicative of what others feel for a Shard, but what the Shard represents. All were aspects of Adonalsium, and so far that I have seen aspects of his consciousness and personality turned into physical form. Rayse, the one who bears Odium, is referred to in epigraph as holding (I am obviously paraphrasing here) "the most dangerous of the Shards".

Now, I agree that his power comes from hatred, and see no issue with the argument that he is spreading hatred. However, I don't believe this is hatred directed at himself, but hatred in general. I've had this theory for some time, but have never, to my knowledge, posted it anywhere. Hatred gives him power, and it's evident in what we know of him:

- He has been to Sel before the events of Elantris. Aona and Skai are dead, likely because of him. Whatever Aona and Skai's connections with the Elantrians was, it, I think, caused the Reod. The Reod corrupted the Elantrians and divided the people, and division is the first step towards hatred.

- He killed the Almighty on Roshar, and has been ensuring division among the people of Roshar. He doesn't want them to unite, because uniting would remove the hatred between the different peoples.

I think I lost my train of thought somewhere up there, so I'll just end it here.

[lordofsoup]

I dont think that a person who already holds one shard can take another when it is no longer owned.  Otherwise someone could have easily gone an picked up Preservation.  Shouldnt Odium be allies with other Shardholders like Ruin who want t destroy stuff? Are all the shards equal in power, if they are then Odium should not have been able to beat any of the others, unless they gave up some of their power.  Either way I am concerned how he could beat both Aona and Skai, who were presumably working together to some extent. 

[Emeralis00]

I think that people have to be 'prepared', before they can be able to pick up a shard.  Sazed seems to refer to Vin as being 'prepared' by Laras as the successor to Preservation, and once you are prepared then you can pick up any shard.

How Sazed and Kelsier were prepared I can't think of.

Of course, this can be just wild guessing.

[SOM1else]

I dont think that a person who already holds one shard can take another when it is no longer owned.  Otherwise someone could have easily gone an picked up Preservation.  Shouldnt Odium be allies with other Shardholders like Ruin who want t destroy stuff? Are all the shards equal in power, if they are then Odium should not have been able to beat any of the others, unless they gave up some of their power.  Either way I am concerned how he could beat both Aona and Skai, who were presumably working together to some extent. 

Sazed took two shards when they weren't owned, unless he absorbed there power simultaneously  he was holding one shard and then received another. the reason some other shard holder didn't come and snatch up Preservation's power is because they aren't omnipresent or omniscient a shardholder would first have to know that he was dead and then travel to Scadrial to get his power and I'm not sure on the exact length of time but wasn't it only a few days after Leras died that Vin took his power and then only moments later Sazed took both powers 

[Ari]

I think that people have to be 'prepared', before they can be able to pick up a shard.  Sazed seems to refer to Vin as being 'prepared' by Laras as the successor to Preservation, and once you are prepared then you can pick up any shard.

How Sazed and Kelsier were prepared I can't think of.

Of course, this can be just wild guessing.

It probably helped that as an Allomancer Kelsier was attuned to Preservation already to an extent, and as a Feruchemist Sazed would probably be attuned to both Preservation and Ruin in the same way. Beyond that, we just don't know enough about what it means to be a Shardholder to really hypothesise substantially- although it seems that visiting Preservation's pool was a key step for Vin.

[Andrew the Great]

Slightly off topic, but I'm going to just go ahead and hypothesize that the only reason Sazed was able to take both shards was because he took them at the same time. Think about it - the nature of the two shards is fundamentally opposite to each other. It seems like if he were to be actively holding Ruin or Preservation, then tried to take the other, there would be some sort of reaction, or he would feel pain from it, or some such. Now granted, this is all my wild guessing, but it makes sense to me that Ruin wouldn't be able to take Preservation and vice-versa. As to whether they'd be able to take other Shards, ones that aren't fundamentally opposed to them, I have no thoughts yet. This could also go a ways toward explaining why Odium is Splintering other Shards rather than usurping them. Thoughts?

[SOM1else]

That makes sense but I dont think he would have to take them at the same time. its probably why Vin was able to destroy ruin when she had Leras' shard, she hadn't been affected by its power enough to have it modify her personally. So maybe Odium couldn't pick up a shard directly opposite of his but if he had gotten multiple ones that have different aspects o them he could get the ones that are more against his nature because the closer he gets to what Adonalsium was the more control he would have over his actions, the same could apply to Sazed.

[Emeralis00]

That makes sense but I dont think he would have to take them at the same time. its probably why Vin was able to destroy ruin when she had Leras' shard, she hadn't been affected by its power enough to have it modify her personally. So maybe Odium couldn't pick up a shard directly opposite of his but if he had gotten multiple ones that have different aspects o them he could get the ones that are more against his nature because the closer he gets to what Adonalsium was the more control he would have over his actions, the same could apply to Sazed.

That would seem to be the case with Vin.  When she fought Ati, she won by directly attacking Ruin, which was not something that Preservation should do.

[Andrew the Great]

Well. Not necessarily. I don't think Preservation has any problem destroying Ruin, unless you're referring to the fact that Preservation by nature doesn't want to destroy anything. Though that's interesting - How would it feel about destroying destruction?

Some1else, you raise an interesting point, bringing up the fact that if a person were able to pick up multiple Shards that aren't directly opposed to its nature, in time they would change and possibly be able to pick up others that might have originally been more against their nature.

[happyman]

The only difficulty is that Odium, as far as we can tell, has not picked up the powers of any other shards.  It makes the most sense, our of what we know, to say that he has splintered other powers, but never claimed them himself.

It's probably not possible for other reasons.  After all, we don't know why Sazed was capable of taking both Ruin and Preservation.

[DariusJenai]

The only difficulty is that Odium, as far as we can tell, has not picked up the powers of any other shards.  It makes the most sense, our of what we know, to say that he has splintered other powers, but never claimed them himself.

It's probably not possible for other reasons.  After all, we don't know why Sazed was capable of taking both Ruin and Preservation.

Keep in mind, Odium has possessed his Shard for a very long time, (at least 4,500 years) so his personal nature has probably been warped by the power of the Shard. 

Odium: intense hatred or dislike, esp. toward a person or thing regarded as contemptible, despicable, or repugnant.

That much intense hatred/contempt could have made Odium begin to see the other Shards, not as additional sources of power for himself, but as something so far beneath him that the only 'logical' choice is not to take them, but to shatter them.

Sazed, on the other hand, not only was still 'himself' when he absorbed both shards, he also had the knowledge from his prophecy that the Shards would be reunited, so he 'knew' that it was not only possible, but the best course of action.

[Zas678]

I also think that once you take a shard, you can't take another. I think that Sazed was able to take two because he took them both at the same time. Maybe Endowment could give up his/hers to someone, but I think that's it. But that's just a theory I have.

[Andrew the Great]

I'm inclined to agree with this. It's also the best explanation for why Odium hasn't been stealing shards that are somewhat related to his, like Ruin.

[happyman]

I'm inclined to agree with this. It's also the best explanation for why Odium hasn't been stealing shards that are somewhat related to his, like Ruin.

Which theory are you agreeing to, exactly?

Personally I like the idea that Odium hates everything, and thus considers it of no worth. Thus he may block others from stopping him, but he won't actively use their help.

[Andrew the Great]

It's entirely possible that Odium just considers the other Shards to be worthless. I'm more inclined, however, to agree that it's just not possible to take a Shard after you've possessed a Shard for a while, whether it be because you can't take more than one Shard (and Sazed was only able to because he took both at the same time), or because you have become fundamentally incompatible with other Shards due to the changes from your own Shard.

Of those two reasons, I'm more inclined to believe that you just can't take more than one Shard, since it explains why Odium hasn't tried to take Shards even extremely similar in nature to his own, such as Ruin.

However, you do have a valid explanation for the same thing in Odium considering all of the other Shards worthless. My problem, then, is why Odium considers them enough of a threat to justify destroying them. It seems to me that if he sees them as dangerous enough to destroy them, he sees them as powerful enough to justify taking the shards rather than destroying them, if he could.

[Thucydides]

However, you do have a valid explanation for the same thing in Odium considering all of the other Shards worthless. My problem, then, is why Odium considers them enough of a threat to justify destroying them. It seems to me that if he sees them as dangerous enough to destroy them, he sees them as powerful enough to justify taking the shards rather than destroying them, if he could.

I don't see that as a problem. The human mind is not inherently logical, Odium could very well realize that the other shards are a threat (or he could simply be destroying them out of hatred) and still convince himself that they are worthless. It is quite possible to believe things that, logically, contradict themselves, especially if you haven't really given your emotions and motivations conscious thought, but even if you have... the human mind is capable of overlooking huge glaring logical errors if it's owner wants it too.

Hopefully that's somewhat coherent, I'm too tired to read through and check even so short a post.

[happyman]

I don't see that as a problem. The human mind is not inherently logical, Odium could very well realize that the other shards are a threat (or he could simply be destroying them out of hatred) and still convince himself that they are worthless. It is quite possible to believe things that, logically, contradict themselves, especially if you haven't really given your emotions and motivations conscious thought, but even if you have... the human mind is capable of overlooking huge glaring logical errors if it's owner wants it too.

Hopefully that's somewhat coherent, I'm too tired to read through and check even so short a post.

No, it makes sense. It's important to remember that Odium will have been bent by his long Shard ownership, so even if he started with a rational (if evil) rationale, he may not have been able to hold the course over the eons.