Why Heralds don't have accents.

[callumke]

I was thinking on the "Heralds don't have accents" idea, which has been proposed before. Talenel'Elin is confirmed not to have "a hint of an accent" - Pg 1001, and there is at least one other person described exactly the same way, the Azish-looking man on Pg 746.

 

The king's assistant from the Rysn Interlude in WoR that Brandon is putting up on YouTube is also described as having "no hint of an accent".

 

I was thinking about why that is, and I was getting annoyed at Brandon. "There is no such thing as having no accent", I thought to myself, "that would mean that there is a standard of the language by which to judge! But of course there are no Platonic forms for language ..."

 

Then I stopped, took a moment to consider, and smiled.

 

I think that the Heralds learn languages directly from Shadesmar. Languages exist cognitively, but not physically, and so might live in the Cognitive Realm. There, a language becomes what people think it is. A Herald therefore directly interfaces with any language they need Cognitively, gaining complete fluency and having no accent, as they are channeling the "true" form of the accent. 

 

Thoughts? 

[Leuthie]

These are from a specific PoV. From my PoV, I don't have an accent. Australians might think.otherwise.

[callumke]

These are from a specific PoV. From my PoV, I don't have an accent. Australians might think.otherwise.

 

I think I have an accent, even from my own PoV. But anyway, I trust that Brandon knows what he's doing, and he doesn't repeat things lightly.

[hoser]

...A Herald therefore directly interfaces with any language they need Cognitively, gaining complete fluency and having no accent, as they are channeling the "true" form of the accent. 

 

Thoughts? 

I think this is brilliant.  The phenomenon was needed, since being gone for 500 or 4500 or however many years, the language would change.  When the Heralds come they don't have time to take years learning to communicate.  When Taln was last here, maybe the language was Dawnsinging. 

I wonder if this means that the Heralds can speak any language without explicitly learning it. It would sure be useful if they are to lead the resistance to the Desolations. 

[callumke]

I think this is brilliant.  The phenomenon was needed, since being gone for 500 or 4500 or however many years, the language would change.  When the Heralds come they don't have time to take years learning to communicate.  When Taln was last here, maybe the language was Dawnsinging. 

I wonder if this means that the Heralds can speak any language without explicitly learning it. It would sure be useful if they are to lead the resistance to the Desolations. 

This is my thought. Any language they need they can access Cognitively. Taln hasn't been around for 4506 years, and the languages must have dramatically changed (hence needing to translate the Dawnchant).

[Vortaan]

I suppose the interesting question is if it's a conscious decision, and what would happen if multiple people with different languages were placed in front of the Heralds. For example, would Kaladin and Rock hear their own language, or would Taln need to consciously decide to speak to each?

[hoser]

I suppose the interesting question is if it's a conscious decision, and what would happen if multiple people with different languages were placed in front of the Heralds. For example, would Kaladin and Rock hear their own language, or would Taln need to consciously decide to speak to each?

Well, the question seems to me to be whether they are enunciating words or speaking mind to mind, as Syl does to Kaladin.  I think the budding Radiants will be doing mind-to-mind communication eventually, and the Heralds might be able to do it.  If they can, it raises the question of why they don't do it in the Prologue. 

If they are using their mouths to enunciate sound waves, wouldn't they have to be in one language at a time? 

If they can't magically tell what language a person speaks, they would have to just pick a language based on previous speech, or informed guesswork. 

[callumke]

Well, the question seems to me to be whether they are enunciating words or speaking mind to mind, as Syl does to Kaladin.  I think the budding Radiants will be doing mind-to-mind communication eventually, and the Heralds might be able to do it.  If they can, it raises the question of why they don't do it in the Prologue. 

If they are using their mouths to enunciate sound waves, wouldn't they have to be in one language at a time? 

If they can't magically tell what language a person speaks, they would have to just pick a language based on previous speech, or informed guesswork. 

My thought was that they can choose to speak any language they want by interfacing with the Cognitive Realm, but that they still physically speak the words in whatever language they choose. Rock would think that they have no Horneater accent when they are speaking his language, and Kaladin would think that they have no accent when they are speaking Alethi.

[Vortaan]

My thought was that they can choose to speak any language they want by interfacing with the Cognitive Realm, but that they still physically speak the words in whatever language they choose. Rock would think that they have no Horneater accent when they are speaking his language, and Kaladin would think that they have no accent when they are speaking Alethi.

 

This seems unwieldy when you are one of ten people chosen to lead basically a whole world to war.

 

"For battle directions in Alethi, please press one. For Horneater, please press two. For Makabi, please press three. If you do not hear your language of choice, please charge headfirst at the enemy. Thank you, and have a nice Desolation"

[Phantom Monstrosity]

This seems unwieldy when you are one of ten people chosen to lead basically a whole world to war.

 

"For battle directions in Alethi, please press one. For Horneater, please press two. For Makabi, please press three. If you do not hear your language of choice, please charge headfirst at the enemy. Thank you, and have a nice Desolation"

The heralds are going to have to have subordinates anyway.

 

It doesn't seem likely there'd be a need for them to talk in multiple languages at once.

Edited March 31, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Morsk]

If it's a magical effect making the audience hear it without accent, what happens when the voice doesn't sync up with lip movements? Accents involve rhythm as much as they do pronunciation. Does everyone get hallucinated lip movements and body language too, to go along with unaccented speach? If Heralds can force individually-tailored hallucinations on an entire audience, isn't that an awesome combat power?

I figure they're super-talented at learning languages, like one of the characters in Mythwalker / Warbreaker Prime. I don't know if Brandon had come up with Realmatics at that point; if he had, there isn't any explanation in Mythwalker about how it works. But the power was to learn real, mundane skills super-quickly and super-well. I like that kind of explanation for the Herlads' language skills, because it can't be abused as a combat power.

[Inkthinker]

That's quite clever. Don't know if it's true, but it's clever and it fits. Nice!

[Observer]

Languages are spoken by thousands, even millions of people. What would that look like in Shadesmar?

 

And if languages have a cognitive prescence, what other kinds of things do? More importantly, what happens if you used Soulcasting to mess with them?

[FlashWrogan]

This seems unwieldy when you are one of ten people chosen to lead basically a whole world to war.

 

"For battle directions in Alethi, please press one. For Horneater, please press two. For Makabi, please press three. If you do not hear your language of choice, please charge headfirst at the enemy. Thank you, and have a nice Desolation"

 

I so had had a mental picture of Glados from Portal saying that . . .

[Krelian]

Now I'm picturing Szeth's attack on Gavilar as a music video set to Still Alive....

 

I do like this theory - I'm not sure which way I'm leaning on the spoken words vs telepathic communication thing yet, but the overall idea sounds like a great explanation. 

[Vortaan]

They could just have a localized effect where their words are translated for them. Taln could be speaking Dawnchant, and it's being translated to the guards as Alethi, much like Dalinar in his visions is speaking Alethi to himself, but is actually speaking Dawnchant to Navani and company. 

[Worldhopper]

This could also explain how Hoid is always able to communicate with the people of other Shardworlds.

[Green Fire]

It seems very much along the lines of the bible and the Pentecost.  The apostles speaking and each man hearing in his own tongue.  

 

This was my read of the epilogue in WoK anyway.  Taln burst through the gate and didn't even bother learning where he was before speaking.  It seems a useful thing for a herald or someone like Hoid to be able to do. The more populous shardworlds all seem to have multiple spoken languages among their nations, much like our own world and not the all too often "Common Tongue" that often simplifies fiction. But that has never stopped Hoid.

 

I think that "no accent" will continue to be a possible way to spot heralds.

[Meg]

But maybe Taln simply knew where he was? Even Dalinar recognized Kholinar in his visions though it changed appearance throughout the centuries. 

 

And for Hoid: He really had enough time -- he of all -- to learn each and every language that shows up in the cosmere. He was there before the "big shattering". Maybe he just created one or another of this languages. And isn't he able to use a metalmind? I think, Hoid is "out of this discussion". 

 

And what about Galladon, Demoux and this third person who are searching for Hoid on Roshar? IIRC worldhopping includes a transfer through Shadesmar. Why didn't they (at least not all of them) learn to speak "without a hint of accent" then? 

 

 

and his accent was certainly not Alethi. He spoke the Selay language worse than the other two,

 

"Worse" implies (to me) that the other two don't speak Selay good (only better than the third man). 

 

Maybe I've missed something but I don't see why these three 17th-Sharders and Worldhoppers didn't benefit from the same knowledge "base" than Hoid or the Heralds. 

 

 

And do we know whether the languages aren't probably spread over the cosmere? Surely, it has it's own name on each world. 

[hoser]

"Worse" implies (to me) that the other two don't speak Selay good (only better than the third man). 

 

Maybe I've missed something but I don't see why these three 17th-Sharders and Worldhoppers didn't benefit from the same knowledge "base" than Hoid or the Heralds. 

 

There are references to something called Proving Day.  I assume there were some contests to choose the Heralds.  Once chosen, they could get a kit: languages, swords, unspecified other powers, returning from death to fight desolations, immortality and the right to be tortured. 

 

Hoid has been around since before the shattering, has some precognition, has used Shadesmar effectively to travel.  Why should everybody have Hoid's abilities?

 

These 17th Sharders have figured some stuff out, but may not know a lot of the tricks.  When Shallan went to Shadesmar, she had no idea what was going on.  It didn't come with a manual.

[Worldhopper]

I wouldn't be surprised if learning to use Shadesmar granted you certain abilities such as mastery of all languages in the Cosmere. I doubt that just travelling there is enough to grant someone the ability to use its gifts, but Shadesmar is of the Cognitive Realm which touches upon all of the Shardworlds and so it stands to reason that that knowledge could well be hidden within.

[Morsk]

I just found this when doing some rereading. Parshendi can learn languages super-fast:

"'One more thing, Uncle,'" Danlan read. "'Then I can go back to digging through this labyrinth of a library. At times, I feel like a cairn robber, sifting through the bones of those long dead. Regardless. The Parshendi, you once mentioned how quickly they seemed to learn our language.'"

"Yes," Dalinar said. "In a matter of days, we were speaking and communicating quite well. Remarkable." Who would have thought that parshmen, of all people, had the wit for such a marvel? Most he'd known didn't do much speaking at all.

The first thing I noticed is that Jasnah is a drama queen, having to make her research sound like an Indiana Jones movie. A page or so before she says this too, "The secrets I seek are too obscure to be contained even in the Palanaeum, but I find hints. Tantalizing fragments." We don't see this side of her with Shallan; she's never bragging about how awesome she is there. It must be a family thing.

Anyway, on to Parshendi and language! It could be a coincidence, because Parshendi aren't even human. Their brains could just be super-good at languages. But if this is magic, and it's good for learning entire languages in days, mastery of accents should be trivial. Maybe Heralds have the same power.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Morsk

[Vortaan]

I just found this when doing some rereading. Parshendi can learn languages super-fast:The first thing I noticed is that Jasnah is a drama queen, having to make her research sound like an Indiana Jones movie. A page or so before she says this too, "The secrets I seek are too obscure to be contained even in the Palanaeum, but I find hints. Tantalizing fragments." We don't see this side of her with Shallan; she's never bragging about how awesome she is there. It must be a family thing.

Anyway, on to Parshendi and language! It could be a coincidence, because Parshendi aren't even human. Their brains could just be super-good at languages. But if this is magic, and it's good for learning entire languages in days, mastery of accents should be trivial. Maybe Heralds have the same power.

 

Except that the Shardbearer Dalinar fights at the end has a very thick accent.

[Morsk]

Oh, I completely forgot that part and haven't gotten to it yet in my reread. Parshendi accents could be due to nonhuman physiology, rather than lack of skill. At this point though it does seem completely different from whatever the Heralds are doing.

[blackmagic3]

It could be that a different Parshendi form is more conducive of learning and speech.