Why did TLR pierce the Atium bracer through his skin?

[Red Ferring]

We know from HoA epigraphs and WoB's that the Atium bracer piercing his skin was what gave Ruin access to influence TLR. Why the heck did he do that? He knew how hemalurgy worked and knew Ruin's power over it. Was it just to keep the bracer safe from pushes/pulls since they were basically his life support?

And side question, don't they have to be hemalurgically charged for them to be a connection to Ruin? Otherwise any person with pierced ears (like even Sazed!) would be under his influence.

[Raysen_ht]

I don´t think he knew that Ruin had so much power over hemalurgy. Especially while he was confined in the "Presevation prision^TM" otherwhise he would never have created the inquisitors/kollos/kandra the way he did.

 

He needed the metal to pierce his skin so that he could burn it for youth... remember, he used the atium as an alomantic and feruchemical metal, so it needed to be outside of him to charge and inside of him to burn

 

there has to be intent to be hemalurgy, so no, the metal doesn´t have to be hemalurgically charged, but the person spiking (or Ruin himself) have to be activaly trying to use hemalurgy

 

EDIT: trying to quote the parts i was replying to in each paragraph... but can´t seem to make it work

 

EDIT2: Actually, i´m not sure if the metal HAVE to be outside the body to feruchemically charged... does anyone know?

Edited June 3, 2015 by Raysen_ht

[Kurkistan]

The arm bracers were Hemalurgic spikes, so it's not just the metal piercing you.

 

He needed the metal to pierce his skin so that he could burn it for youth... remember, he used the atium as an alomantic and feruchemical metal, so it needed to be outside of him to charge and inside of him to burn

 

This is incorrect, at least in large part. Yes, he couldn't burn anything that wasn't in his body. No, he almost certainly wasn't burning his bracers. And no Feruchemical metals don't need to be outside of you in order to charge: Sazed stores in a swallowed Pewtermind in the first Mistborn book.

 

The general understanding is that the normal method we see for compounding is to swallow a small piece of the appropriate metal, store in it, burn it, and then store the excess in another, separate metalmind. This is how Miles almost certainly does it, at the very least (the narrative always has him just tapping metalminds for his health), and I would imagine that TLR had an interest in not actively burning away his Hemalurgic spikes.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Kurkistan

[Boongeebee]

I don't think Metalminds need to be outside the body to charge. When Sazed was fighting Marsh, he tapped the rings that were embedded in him with no trouble.  I don't think that charging would be any different.

[Raysen_ht]

 

The arm bracers were Hemalurgic spikes, so it's not just the metal piercing you.

 

 

 

This is incorrect, at least in large part. Yes, he couldn't burn anything that wasn't in his body. No, he almost certainly wasn't burning his bracers. And no Feruchemical metals don't need to be outside of you in order to charge: Sazed stores in a swallowed Pewtermind in the first Mistborn book.

 

The general understanding is that the normal method we see for compounding is to swallow a small piece of the appropriate metal, store in it, burn it, and then store the excess in another, separate metalmind. This is how Miles almost certainly does it, at the very least (the narrative always has him just tapping metalminds for his health), and I would imagine that TLR had an interest in not actively burning away his Hemalurgic spikes.

 

 

 

If TLR wasn´t burning his bracers for youth, why did he got old so fast when they were pulled out? shouldn´t the metal he had inside of him keep him young for a bit longer?

[yurisses]

The Lord Ruler's bracers were hemalurgically charged. Remember that Ruin didn't have a strong influence on humans until Vin released him.

Dalenthas (15 October 2008)

Did the Lord Ruler have any Hemalurgic spikes in him? It would seem he'd need to for Ruin to influence him, but it wasn't mentioned. Or did his bracers work as spikes?

Brandon Sanderson (16 October 2008)

His arm bracers, which pierced his skin, were his spikes.

(source)

darxbane (16 October 2008)

In an annotation from book one, it is mentioned that The Lord Ruler needed all three magic systems in order to do what he did. I always assumed that it meant his Hemalurgy enhanced his Allomancy. Did Marsh get a double power, or is the Feruchemy-Allomancy combo enough? (a sidebar to this question is whether or not stacking abilities is possible through Hemalurgy).

Brandon Sanderson (17 October 2008)

He used Hemalurgy to pull off his most dramatic effects. Marsh didn't need them, but it makes things much easier.

(source)

You don't need your metalminds to pierce your skin to compound.

Relevant WoBs:

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=636#4

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=642#3#3

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1012#5#5

Consistently with the rumours from Bands of Mourning, I have a theory that the bracers have a part that is either pure Lerasium or an alloy of Lerasium and Atium. That way he used Lerasium for both Feruchemy and Hemalurgy. After all we know the Lord Ruler took a bead of Lerasium but apparently did not ingest it. Another hint here.

One of my hypotheses is that alloying Lerasium with other metals, hemalurgically, cancels hemalurgic decay explaining the rumours that someone wearing the bracers would gain the Lord Ruler's powers, but this is just a myth, and to be fair I think any speculation regarding Lerasium's feruchemical and hemalurgic effects is a shot in the dark.

Edited June 3, 2015 by yurisses

[Kurkistan]

If TLR wasn´t burning his bracers for youth, why did he got old so fast when they were pulled out? shouldn´t the metal he had inside of him keep him young for a bit longer?

 

In reply:

 

The general understanding is that the normal method we see for compounding is to swallow a small piece of the appropriate metal, store in it, burn it, and then store the excess in another, separate metalmind. This is how Miles almost certainly does it, at the very least (the narrative always has him just tapping metalminds for his health), and I would imagine that TLR had an interest in not actively burning away his Hemalurgic spikes.

 

Because he was (almost certainly) tapping them. So on Monday you swallow a bead of Atium and store/burn it and then store the excess in your bracers, then just tap the bracers for a week and repeat the process again next Monday. Only on Mondays will you actually be actively compounding anything: the rest of the time is just pure Feruchemy.

@yurisses

 

It's also stated by the Mistborn Adventure Game (though it's generally a dubious source at best) that atium is unique in that atium spikes don't suffer from Hemalurgic decay.

[natc]

In response to Raysen

. . .Because he didn't have any more metal inside him?

These are atium beads. One does not swallow atium beads in advance, they digest way too quickly. He doesn't even have that big of a stock, the majority is in the Kandra trust. He probably keeps what he needs between shipments along with what little amount he plans on putting into circulation, and leaves the rest in the metal chambers to be shipped back and offloaded to the kandra.

Plus nobody keeps a continuous burn when compounding, as stated. It's for storing purposes.

Edited June 3, 2015 by natc

[Raysen_ht]

 

In reply:

 

 

Because he was (almost certainly) tapping them. So on Monday you swallow a bead of Atium and store/burn it and then store the excess in your bracers, then just tap the bracers for a week and repeat the process again next Monday. Only on Mondays will you actually be actively compounding anything: the rest of the time is just pure Feruchemy.

 

Oh right, i got it now. Thx for the explanation

[Guest]

I read a theory/WoB a LONG time ago (before I knew Cosmere existed) that said he'd Spiked himself as a way of communicating with Ruin (kind of a "keep your friends close and enemies closer" situation).

[natc]

Ruin can't hear his thoughts anyway, and probably would've heard his physical voice regardless?

And the reverse of hearing Ruin's voice is the kind of thing you probably wouldn't want to hear. Look at all the good that did for anyone.

[Red Ferring]

The arm bracers were Hemalurgic spikes, so it's not just the metal piercing you.

So it was hemalurgically charged and he did it himself. Why? He did know it was letting Ruin influence him (even if it wasn't right away) because he understood the risk of the kandra being taken over by Ruin so he placed the Resolution in the First Contract.

I'm also curious now what power was stolen and imbued into TLR with those bracers. Maybe he stole a Seer's/Mistborn's Atium burning abilities to enhance his ability to get more bang for his buck when compounding youth, if that's what happens with a stronger Allomantic ability applied to compounding.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Red Ferring

[Kurkistan]

So it was hemalurgically charged and he did it himself. Why? He did know it was letting Ruin influence him (even if it wasn't right away) because he understood the risk of the kandra being taken over by Ruin so he placed the Resolution in the First Contract.

To borrow from Raysen, he may well not have been aware just how much influence a non-freed Ruin had. Despite this, he seems to have been aware, at the very least, of how much influence a free Ruin had over Hemalurgists, so perhaps the Resolution was put in place specifically in case Ruin got out and started (so far as we/TLR know) to be able to influence people on a large scale.

 

I'm also curious now what power was stolen and imbued into TLR with those bracers. Maybe he stole a Seer's/Mistborn's Atium burning abilities to enhance his ability to get more bang for his buck when compounding youth, if that's what happens with a stronger Allomantic ability applied to compounding.

Some theorize that it was his Soothing that got the boost.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Kurkistan

[Moogle]

So it was hemalurgically charged and he did it himself. Why? He did know it was letting Ruin influence him (even if it wasn't right away) because he understood the risk of the kandra being taken over by Ruin so he placed the Resolution in the First Contract.

 

Some of TLR's most spectacular abilities came from Hemalurgy:

darxbane (16 October 2008)

In an annotation from book one, it is mentioned that The Lord Ruler needed all three magic systems in order to do what he did. I always assumed that it meant his Hemalurgy enhanced his Allomancy. Did Marsh get a double power, or is the Feruchemy-Allomancy combo enough? (a sidebar to this question is whether or not stacking abilities is possible through Hemalurgy).

Brandon Sanderson (17 October 2008)

He used Hemalurgy to pull off his most dramatic effects. Marsh didn't need them, but it makes things much easier.

(source)

 

What this means is up for debate. Some have speculated it was his super-Soothing, though I myself am ambivalent on that and don't think he would have risked Hemalurgy for what amounts to a party trick. (I also think if he wanted that he could have replicated that through reverse-Compounding, which would just use Feruchemy + Allomancy.)

[Red Ferring]

Some of TLR's most spectacular abilities came from Hemalurgy:

What this means is up for debate. Some have speculated it was his super-Soothing, though I myself am ambivalent on that and don't think he would have risked Hemalurgy for what amounts to a party trick. (I also think if he wanted that he could have replicated that through reverse-Compounding, which would just use Feruchemy + Allomancy.)

Reverse compounding? Has that been confirmed at all? Increasing Allomantic output when combined with Feruchemy? I personally think the "most spectacular abilities" talked about were surviving beheadings and the like with compounded gold. The things that really stood as "proof" to the people that this man was a god and couldn't be killed.

[Moogle]

Reverse compounding? Has that been confirmed at all? Increasing Allomantic output when combined with Feruchemy? I personally think the "most spectacular abilities" talked about were surviving beheadings and the like with compounded gold. The things that really stood as "proof" to the people that this man was a god and couldn't be killed.

 

It is confirmed:

dyring

A coinshot able to store weight can, as you showed us with Wax push in a ridiculously powerful manner, as the weight/mass is the largest factor wich controls the push strength.

I'm wondering if the same can be done with soothing(or rioting). If you where to increase your identity, that may/should increase your emotional imprint(or whatever you might call it), would your soothings/riotings become wastly more powerful in a simular way as weight makes steelpushing more powerful?

And if it does, is this how the lord ruler improved his Soothing in such a spectacular fasion?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, the Lord Ruler--don't forget--could compound any Allomancy he wanted. That creates some crazy effects. As for what you discuss in your first question, I don't want to touch too much on Identity yet as I am saving it for later books. Talking too much here might undermine my ability to reveal interesting and cool things in books when the time is right. I like your theory, and it has merit, but I'm not going to give you a yes or a no as it delves too much into what Identity, as an attribute, can do.

(source)

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (paraphrased)

I continued to ask about the Lord Ruler and his Allomantic strength. There's an upper bound to the amount of power you can get from being a savant. Brandon said that, obviously, the Lord Ruler wasn't using duralumin and Elend could only get that powerful in Soothing using duralumin. He implied that there was a way to Compound to enhance Allomancy. (Note, we have discussed this on the forums a while back. This isn't news.)

(source)

 

As for the beheading, he was never actually beheaded IIRC. I'll look for the WoB on that.

 

Edit: I found this as a source: http://twg.17thshard.com/index.php?topic=7741.msg169848#msg169848

 

It's paraphrased, which makes it fairly untrustworthy, but Chaos seems to be backing it up. I don't know if we actually have it on the interview database.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Moogle

[Red Ferring]

It is confirmed:

As for the beheading, he was never actually beheaded IIRC. I'll look for the WoB on that.

Edit: I found this as a source: http://twg.17thshard.com/index.php?topic=7741.msg169848#msg169848

It's paraphrased, which makes it fairly untrustworthy, but Chaos seems to be backing it up. I don't know if we actually have it on the interview database.

I'm not so convinced of the "reverse compounding" for enhanced Allomancy through Feruchemy. The one quote is a paraphrase stating that he thinks that's what he was implying and the other is just Brandon's phrasing as "compounding any Allomancy". Remember that Brandon has similarly talked about compounding but in a strictly feruchemical sense. (tapping a multiplier of power from a metalmind for a severely reduced amount of time) This may be the case too.

Perhaps TLR, having granted himself Allomancy from the Well and not from a bead, had greater access to power just by nature of the origin of his connection to it spiritually.

I would like to hear thoughts,however, on what people think is the process of reversed compounding. With normal compounding, a stored attribute is burned allomantically and becomes the power released. How would it work in reverse to get an Allomantic output instead?

Edited June 3, 2015 by Red Ferring

[Red Ferring]

To borrow from Raysen, he may well not have been aware just how much influence a non-freed Ruin had. Despite this, he seems to have been aware, at the very least, of how much influence a free Ruin had over Hemalurgists, so perhaps the Resolution was put in place specifically in case Ruin got out and started (so far as we/TLR know) to be able to influence people on a large scale.

Some theorize that it was his Soothing that got the boost.

This answers my main question quite well. Thanks Kurkistan. I was real curious why he'd do that to himself knowing the cost. But it's likely he didn't know.

[yurisses]

I would like to hear thoughts,however, on what people think is the process of reversed compounding. With normal compounding, a stored attribute is burned allomantically and becomes the power released. How would it work in reverse to get an Allomantic output instead?

A theory is that you store Investiture with nicrosil (perhaps even compound it), and then tap the Investiture while burning a metal to turn it into a specific Allomantic power. I think this is a simplistic explanation of how nicrosil Feruchemy functions, though. And I'm not too fond of the idea of a compounding feedback loop.

[Moogle]

I would like to hear thoughts,however, on what people think is the process of reversed compounding. With normal compounding, a stored attribute is burned allomantically and becomes the power released. How would it work in reverse to get an Allomantic output instead?

 

There's other WoBs on the Compounding thing, I think. Maybe someone else can find them, because I can't. I recall something from a reddit thread for some reason.

 

The current leading theory is Feruchemical nicrosil, which stores Investiture.

 

The way regular Compounding works is that you force Investiture through a metalmind, and the Investiture is filtered into the attribute contained within the metalmind. In a similar way, if you tap from a nicrosilmind, the tapped Investiture could be filterable into an Allomantic effect if you burn a metal and then force some of your nicrosilmind's Investiture through the burning metal.

 

Or, if the way nicrosil works is that it essentially lets you tap and take in Investiture, which then acts like the mists, just do the same thing that Vin does.

 

A theory is that you store Investiture with nicrosil (perhaps even compound it), and then tap the Investiture while burning a metal to turn it into a specific Allomantic power. I think this is a simplistic explanation of how nicrosil Feruchemy functions, though. And I'm not too fond of the idea of a compounding feedback loop.

 

I don't think that there's a feedback loop, here. Keep in mind that Compounding does not multiply the attribute contained within the Investiture, but rather the Investiture that would power Allomancy instead powers Feruchemy. There's no infinite feedback loops creating a black hole of Investiture.

[yurisses]

I don't think that there's a feedback loop, here. Keep in mind that Compounding does not multiply the attribute contained within the Investiture, but rather the Investiture that would power Allomancy instead powers Feruchemy. There's no infinite feedback loops creating a black hole of Investiture.

 

Speculatively, if you can compound nicrosil Feruchemy, the amount of raw Investiture you can draw from Preservation is only limited by the volume of nicrosil you own. You could potentially tap the stored Investiture to not only brutally fuel Allomancy but also to compound Feruchemy at virtually unlimited rates.

 

I don't, however, think this is how nicrosil is going to work.

 

Another possible way the Lord Ruler might be "compounding" his Allomancy is through Lerasium Feruchemy, whatever ways that would work.

Edited June 3, 2015 by yurisses

[Moogle]

Speculatively, if you can compound nicrosil Feruchemy, the amount of raw Investiture you can draw from Preservation is only limited by the volume of nicrosil you own. You could potentially tap the stored Investiture to not only brutally fuel Allomancy but also to compound Feruchemy at virtually unlimited rates.

 

This is already true of normal Compounding, so on the whole I would argue that it's how it should work. I'm eager to see more on nicrosil in the upcoming Mistborn books, now...

 

Slightly related: I note that the MAG puts a limit on how much nicrosil you can tap at once. In the MAG, you can tap on a metalmind and a nicrosilmind, and the nicrosilmind will "copy" what the other metalmind is doing, but only if you use less total Investiture from the nicrosilmind than you do from the other one.

 

It might be that while you can reverse-Compound Allomancy, you are similarly limited. To pull off amazing stunts like TLR, you'd have to already be a lerasium Allomancer.

 

Of course, this is the MAG, and everyone knows how reliable that is...

[Kaymyth]

And side question, don't they have to be hemalurgically charged for them to be a connection to Ruin? Otherwise any person with pierced ears (like even Sazed!) would be under his influence.

 

I still hold to the theory that atium is special when it comes to spiking, and doesn't have to acquire a hemalurgic charge in order to connect to Ruin.  Given that atium is, in fact, part of Ruin's "body", does it not make sense that sticking a piece of Ruin into oneself would lead to a connection to him?

[Red Ferring]

I still hold to the theory that atium is special when it comes to spiking, and doesn't have to acquire a hemalurgic charge in order to connect to Ruin. Given that atium is, in fact, part of Ruin's "body", does it not make sense that sticking a piece of Ruin into oneself would lead to a connection to him?

I think there's a lot of merit to this theory. But I would raise then, wouldn't ingesting Atium in preparation to burn put you under his power as well? Since it's in your body and connected to Ruin by default in a way?

[Kaymyth]

I think there's a lot of merit to this theory. But I would raise then, wouldn't ingesting Atium in preparation to burn put you under his power as well? Since it's in your body and connected to Ruin by default in a way?

 

Not necessarily.  Hemalurgy requires blood contact to work, for both the power and the connection.  If it's in your stomach, it's not in contact with your blood, and therefore the link is not made.

 

Now, on the other hand, if you have an ulcer...