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Realmatic Theory and Magic 101


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#1 Nepene

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 09:33 PM

This is a list of relevant quotes on the Cosmere that it would help any newbie to read. In another thread a Cosmere 201 was requested. Here it is. No theories. Just quotes.

http://www.theorylan...view-search.php

Most quotes were found from searching this. If you have any quotes you believe should be added just say.

A lot of interesting stuff came from his reddit ask me anything, our questioning of him, and signings where brave 17thsharders got quotes from brandon. Some of the quotes from our QA of Brandon aren't in theorybase so it's very worthwhile to read the whole thing. We also got some quotes from him on twitter which are in theoryland.

http://www.reddit.co..._named_brandon/
http://www.17thshard...ndon-sanderson/
http://www.17thshard...s-and-stalking/

And of course the books are useful sources too, particularly the ebooks. Even if you have the physical books you can navigate the ebooks better to search for things.

http://www.amazon.co...on/e/B001IGFHW6

Onwards.

http://www.theorylan...in.php?i=428#10

Each of the 'Shardworlds' I've written in (Mistborn, Elantris, Warbreaker, Way of Kings) exists with the same cosmology. All things exist on three realms—the spiritual, the cognitive, and the physical. What's going on here is an interaction between the three realms. I don't want to bore you with my made up philosophy, but I do have a cohesive metaphysical reasoning for how my worlds and magic works. And there is a single plane of existence—called Shadesmar, the Cognative Realm—which connects them all.



Harmony, Mistborn 3

I have come to see that each power has three aspects: a physical one, which can be seen in the creations made by Ruin and Preservation; a spiritual one in the unseen energy that permeates all of the world; and a cognitive one in the minds which controlled that energy.



Shai, TES

“All things exist in three Realms, Gaotona. Physical, Cognitive, Spiritual. The Physical is what we feel, what is before us. The Cognitive is how an object is viewed and how it views itself. The Spiritual Realm contains an object’s soul—its essence—as well as the ways it is connected to the things and people around it.”



Brandon

http://www.theorylan...in.php?i=727#45

The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.

Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.)


 

http://www.reddit.co...son_ama/c9hpuvd
 

Excellent question. The shards are now intermingled, and would take effort to split apart. He would drop Harmony. (This is what Odium feared would happen, by the way.)

 

http://www.17thshard...randon/?p=57653

 

I just got an answer to the question about why Nightblood can read minds but Shards can't. Brandon said that it depends on the Shard's focus--Ruin can't read minds, but Preservation can when you're connected to Preservation in a special way. So, some Shards can read minds while some can't.

 

www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=977#180

 

Looking into the future was not something Ruin was good at doing. That ability is confined to certain shards, and not others.

 

 

https://soundcloud.c...potlight-pcc-13 49minutes

 

When one of the Shards, like Odium, moves from world to world in cosmere, does their presence, such as the metals they leave behind or their magic really go with them?

Brandon: Odium never really settled on a planet [before?]. He now, he settled on Roshar and his magic has permeated things. Leaving would be very difficult for him, and would either involve leaving behind some of his power, or ripping that out, which would be a difficult process. So yes, it is very tough to leave.

 

 

http://www.theorylan...in.php?i=428#63


Afraid not. Aon Mea references the expanded region within which the "Elantris Effect" will create Elantrians. The X is fertile valley with a high density of life, a place with a lot of cognitive activity. (Cognitive as defined by Realmatic Theory includes the 'thoughts' of all things that exist, not just human beings. The more complex the life form, the stronger its presence on the Cognitive Realm.)



WOK

“Besides, what good will a cook be in the Spiritual Realm?” “Heralds need food,” she said absently, scratching out a line on her writing board, then scribbling another line of numbers beneath it. “Do they?” Ashir asked. “I’ve never been convinced. Oh, I’ve read the speculations, but it just doesn’t seem rational to me. The body must be fed in the Physical Realm, but the spirit exists in a completely different state.” “A state of ideals,” she replied. “So, you could create ideal foods, perhaps.”



The devotaries taught that when men died, the most valiant among them—the ones who fulfilled their Callings best—would rise to help reclaim heaven. Each man would do as he had done in life. Spearmen to fight, farmers to work spiritual farms, lighteyes to lead. The ardents were careful to point out that excellence in any Calling would bring power. A farmer would be able to wave his hand and create great fields of spiritual crops. A spearman would be a great warrior, able to cause thunder with his shield and lightning with his spear.

 

http://www.reddit.co...hh5j1?context=3

 


 

http://www.17thshard...2202#entry42202


If you are standing inside of a time bubble, and throw a spear out of the bubble, what happens to that spear as it traverses the border of the bubble? Are different parts of the spear ever in different "time zones," going fundamentally different speeds?

On that line of reasoning, what would happen to a train and its occupants if Marisi stood next to railroad tracks holding up a Cadmium bubble while that train sped by?

In general, a large object going through a time bubble is not going to notice. An object is either in or out, and it depends in part on how the object views itself. People inside the train would be inside of its influence, and wouldn't notice the bubble. The spear would go from one to the other, but would never be in both.

 

http://www.reddit.co...fvv7t?context=3

 

On bendalloy bubbles.

 

Any living thing touching the bubble it is affected by the bubble.

 

Kurkistan

 

http://www.reddit.co...hh5j1?context=3

 

K. Are the changing beauty standards of Returned and the "plausibility" of Forgeries determined by the same kind of "cognitive ideals or concepts which have taken on literal personification over time" that some types of Spren represent?

 

B. Yes. These things all work according to the same fundamental framework.

 

Nepene.

 

http://www.reddit.co...fp780?context=3
 

N. In Warbreaker Lightsong mentions that the Returned's forms are dependent on contemporary beauty standards. In the Emperor's Soul Shai implies that if others did not find the Emperor's Soul plausible it would not take as well. Is my reading of their statements correct, is their magic dependent on how others view you as well as how you view yourself?

 

B. Yes. This is a factor.

 

Addendum. It is interesting to read this quote in light of Shai's quote "The Cognitive is how an object is viewed and how it views itself".

WOK, relating to scholars measuring spren.

It seemed locked somehow. It almost looked like a little person as it danced over the fire. She reached up and erased her notation. It immediately began pulsing and changing erratically like the other one. “Wow,” Ashir repeated. “It’s as if it knows, somehow, that it has been measured. As if merely defining its form traps it somehow.

 

Reddit, Are there poopspren. Spotted by Senor Feesh.

 

http://www.reddit.co...rights_for_the/

Well, it depends on how you're defining spren. In the books, they don't make a distinction, but there are several varieties. At the basic level, everything has an identity--a soul, you might say, but more than that. This is based on how it is viewed, and how long it has been viewed that way. Feces would have this, but wouldn't have a very strong cognitive identity because of its transitional nature.

Other types of spren, the type that characters see and interact with, are cognitive ideals or concepts which have taken on literal personification over time. These are usually related to forces or emotions, and don't relate to this particular topic.

And that's far more than I ever expected to say on this...

 


 

http://www.reddit.co..._author/c8kcur7 what would happen if Miles was cut in half and healed?


Good question. In all of the cosmere's Shard-based magics, the greater portion of a bisected body regrows the lesser portion. If it were done EXACTLY halfway, the soul wold jump to one or the other randomly and that would regrow.

Amusingly, this first came up in 1999, six years before I got published. (I see someone else already mentioned the situation where I had to consider it.)



http://www.theorylan...ain.php?i=956#2


I asked him if it was possible to enter or exit Shadesmar in interplanetary space.
Brandon Sanderson

He laughed nervously for several seconds with a look that suggested "Uh-oh!" and replied (as best as I can remember):

I would say no. The Cognitive Realm does exist there, but Shadesmar is a special case.

 

http://www.reddit.co...thspren/c8vet5f

 

 

There are many ways to enter Shadesmar. You'll see more of this in the future. One thing to keep in mind about Shadesmar is that space where things are thinking is expanded, while space where there is nothing to think is contracted. In other words, in an empty void, you get almost no Shadesmar. This makes distances as we think of them very different there.



http://www.reddit.co...thspren/c8tzxje

Windrunner is it hard to travel in Shadesmar in Roshar vs Sel

No, Roshar does not have the same problem. There are some differences going on. (One reason being that the spren are far more extensive on Roshar, and provide something of a "release valve." The Seons and the Skaze on Sel are not numerous enough to fulfill a similar function. Though, of course, that's only one part of the puzzle. Raw power is dangerous.

It's one reason everyone should be thankful Kelsier was around on Scadrial.

Compare with. http://www.theorylan...in.php?i=727#50
 

You may want to note that the moment Preservation dropped out and let the last of his consciousness die, someone was waiting in the Cognitive Realm to seize the power and hold on for a short period until Vin could take it up more fully. You'll find him using it to whisper in moments of great stress in the book, to one person in specific in two places. (I'll bet someone on here has already found them.)

He never could just let things well enough alone....

 

http://www.reddit.co...fp780?context=3

 

I don't think it's necessary at all. The writer's own fascinations--whatever they are--can add to the writing experience. But yes, some philosophical ideas worked into my fiction. Plato's theory of the forms has always fascinated, and so the idea of a physical/cognitive/spiritual realm is certainly a product of this. Human perception of ideals has a lot to do with the cognitive realm, and a true ideal has a lot to do with the spiritual realm.

As for more examples, they're spread through my fiction. Spinoza is in there a lot, and Jung has a lot to do with the idea of spiritual connectivity (and how the Parshendi can all sing the same songs.)


 

http://www.17thshard...mpshire-signing

 

 

Ok. The gemhearts/stormgems/whatever that are grown inside the beasts in Way of Kings ... is that the same as the way Atium is grown inside geodes in the Pits of Hathsin?
Brandon Sanderson

It's similar. The pits are an area where there's like a leak from the spiritual realm into the physical. That's what happens there.



http://www.theorylan...ain.php?i=666#5


Green Hoodie Mistborn
Is there any relation between the smoke that is emitted when a Shardblade cuts somebody and the smoke that Nightblood emits in Warbreaker?
Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there is. You've been...are you a 17th Sharder?



http://www.17thshard...ndpost__p__8896


My cousin ran into Brandon in a bookstore once (crazy!) and asked him which of these two was more powerful. His response was that Nightblood is "several orders of magnitude more magical than a shardblade."



http://www.reddit.co...brandon/c2gliuy


Brandon Sanderson
Preservation, as a Shard, is about preserving life, people, and the like. Not about self. No more than Ruin is about destroying self, or Cultivation is about growing herself.



Ars Arcanum, Alloy of Law.

Allomancy is the most common of the three. It is end-positive, according to my terminology, meaning
that the practitioner draws in power from an external source. The body then filters it into various forms.
(The actual outlet of the power is not chosen by the practitioner, but instead is hardwritten into their
Spiritweb.) The key to drawing this power comes in the form of various types of metals, with specific
compositions being required. Though the metal is consumed in the process, the power itself doesn’t
actually come from the metal. The metal is a catalyst, you might say, that begins an Investiture and keeps
it running.



http://www.theorylan...in.php?i=727#66


To use Feruchemy or Allomancy in almost every case, one must have the right spiritual and genetic codes, imprinted upon people during the creation of Scadrial by Ati and Leras. To use Hemalurgy, one must first have someone with these right spiritual and genetic codes, then take the power from them. Other people on other worlds are not going to simply discover the Three Metallic Arts by accident.



http://www.openthefr...-sanderson.html


People ask about getting the power from metals and things, but that’s not actually how it works. The power’s not coming from metal. I talked a little about this before, but you are drawing power from some source, and the metal is actually just a gateway. It’s actually the molecular structure of the metal… what’s going on there, the pattern, the resonance of that metal works in the same way as an Aon does in Elantris. It filters the power. So it is just a sign of “this is what power this energy is going to be shaped into and give you.” When you understand that, compounding [in Alloy of Law] makes much more sense.

Compounding is where you are able to kind of draw in more power than you should with feruchemy. What’s going on there is you’re actually charging a piece of metal, and then you are burning that metal as a feruchemical charge. What is happening is that the feruchemical charge overwrites the allomantic charge, and so you actually fuel feruchemy with allomancy, is what you are doing. Then if you just get out another piece of metal and store it in, since you’re not drawing the power from yourself, you’re cheating the system, you’re short-circuiting the system a little bit. So you can actually use the power that usually fuels allomancy, to fuel feruchemy, which you can then store in a metalmind, and basically build up these huge reservoirs of it. So what’s going on there is… imagine there’s like, an imprint, a wavelength, so to speak. A beat for an allomantic thing, that when you burn a metal, it says “ok, this is what power we give.” When it’s got that charge, it changes that beat and says, “now we get this power.” And you access a set of feruchemical power. That’s why compounding is so powerful.

 

http://www.reddit.co...fuoe9?context=3


 

So, I went back to the original, and decided that color was enough to differentiate them. Just as steel and iron are very similar in the mistborn world, Emerald and Heliodor can be very similar--but produce different effects. The idea here is that the physical items (like the metals or the crystals) provide a key by which magical interaction occurs.

 

So, in a long winded answer, a gemstone with an impure color would be considered like a bad alloy in the Mistborn magic--it either wouldn't work at all, or would work very poorly. The chemical and color signature needs to be of a specific variety to provide the proper key to accessing the power of transformation.


 

Elantis, Raoden reading books on magic

The Dor was as Galladon had described
it: a powerful reservoir just beyond the normal senses. Its only desire was to
escape. The books explained that the Dor existed in a place that was full of
pressure, and so the energy pushed its way through any viable exit, moving
from an area of high concentration to one of low.

However, because of the Dor's nature, it could enter the physical world only
through gates of the proper size and shape. Elantrians could create rifts with
their drawings, providing a means for the Dor to escape. and those drawings
would determine what form the energy took when it appeared. However, if even
one line was of the wrong proportion, the Dor would be unable to enter-like a
square trying to force its way through a round hole.

Some theorists described
the process using unfamiliar words like "frequency" and "pulse length." Raoden
was only beginning to understand how much scientific genius was held in the
library's musty pages.



http://www.theorylan...ain.php?i=949#5



SPLINTER. Are the Aons at the heart of Seons SPLINTERS of Aona?
Brandon Sanderson

Yes.



http://www.17thshard...dpost__p__42116


Sweetness 2. Just after the Shattering (but before they started created humans or something), did all Shards have roughly the same amount of raw power?

Brandon Sanderson Yes. Good question.



http://www.17thshard...dpost__p__42217


FireArcadia [*]Does the Spiritual power used in any given magic system come from the supporting Shard itself, or through it from the remains of Adonalsium and the Power of Creation?

From the Shard in most cases. But it's also often built into the world innately, and so the Shard (if someone is holding it) doesn't always have control over who can or cannot use the magic.

 

Satsuoni.

 

http://www.reddit.co...fou5d?context=3
 

From which stage of development does human embryo on Scadrial gain Hemalurgic potential?

 

2) Conception.

 

http://www.17thshard...dpost__p__42243


This has to do with the nature of the magics in the cosmere. They interfere with one another. Something that contains a lot of power--we call it investiture--resists the efforts of magic to influence it. A strong spirit can interfere as well.



http://www.17thshard...0426#entry40426 (paraphrased by Nalesean)


1.) The ability to push/pull an invested object is predicated to the amount/power of the investiture

2.) Further, invested objects also gain resistance to pulling/pushing based on proximity to soul possibly via the soul. An example given is that a hemalurgic spike touches the blood of the person, and from there is now part of both the Spiritual Realm and the Physical Realm. This provides what Brandon termed a kind of "soul interference," based on its proximity to the soul...

..3.) The amount of investiture is relatively low on Scadrial, whereas worlds like Cel and Roshar are pushing around "high power" according to Brandon...

Brandon said that theoretically you can push/pull Shardblades and Shardplates but you would need to wield an incredible amount of power. One example he gave that could so such as a thing is that if you were a Mistborn wielding the full power of the Well of Ascension, you could push/pull Shardblades/plate



http://www.17thshard...2117#entry42117


Windrunner [*]Can all Investitures be classified as end-positive, neutral, or negative?

Yes, though in the overwhelming majority of cases, it's end-positive or at least neutral. Hemalurgy really is an oddity in the cosmere



Mastermoridin to Brandon
http://www.17thshard...dpost__p__42476

2. Why does Preservation fueling Allomancy not weaken Preservation compared to Ruin?

Because the power, once used, returns to him--much as water, after passing over a turbine, continues on in its system.



http://www.reddit.co...brandon/c2gk8dz

Q:Would the various magic systems work on different worlds? For example, would a Mistborn be able to use his/her abilities in the world Way of Kings is located on?

A:It depends on the magic system. They are all related to a kind of "Spiritual DNA" that one gets from their heritage on a specific planet. However, there are ways around that. (Hemalurgy, for example, 'staples' a piece of someone else's soul to your own, and creates a work around to give you access to magic you shouldn't have.) Some of the magics are more regionally tied than others. (In Elantris, you have to access the Dor, which is very regionally influenced.)

The end answer is this: With in-depth knowledge of how the magics work, and their connection, one could probably get them all to work on other planets. It may take effort for some of them.



Viper, AMOL signing
http://www.theorylan...ain.php?i=949#7

Me: So do soulstamps get weaker further from MaiPon? If you left Sel via Shadesmar and went to another planet, would the soulstamp stop working?
BS: That's correct.


Identity.

 

http://www.reddit.co...fs0ea?context=3

 

1) The difficulty here is, again, one of Identity. People born on Scadrial have an Identity tied to it and its magic. Odium would have to do certain things to make them able to use a magic he fuels. He has done these things on Roshar, so it's not impossible for him to manage it on Scadrial.

 

Reddit AMA
http://www.reddit.co...brandon/c2gkc70

1) Hoid, so far, has only moved forward in time. He has not 'lived' all of those years, but has used some time dilation techniques. That said, he is far older (both in relative and real time) than a normal person can live.

2) One of the 'basics' of the magic in all of the worlds is that the energy of Shards can fuel all kinds of interactions, not just interactions based on their personality/role. I did this because otherwise, the Magics would all be extremely limited.

The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do. So, in Preservation's case, the magic is a gift--allowing a person to preserve their own strength, and rely upon the strength granted by the magic. While Hemalurgy has a huge cost, ending in net entropy.



Twitter
https://twitter.com/...192166115360769

Mike Cockrum (23 January 2013)
How many shards has Hoid received powers from, whether taken, stolen, given, etc.?
Brandon Sanderson (23 January 2013)
Well, he has a bead of Lerasium.



TES Shai

She had been bested, betrayed by the Imperial Fool when she’d assumed she could trust him. He had taken her copy of the Moon Scepter and swapped it for the original



New Hampshire Signing Viper, Theoryland.
http://www.theorylan...in.php?i=949#11

Me: Hoid has a nugget of Lerasium and the Moon Scepter. Does he have a Breath.
BS: It seems quite likely that he would.

Windrunner.


http://www.reddit.co...fw0zu?context=3

W. Why does Hoid want the Moon Scepter? Or was it just a convenient excuse to get Shai imprisoned?

B. He wanted it for more than just getting Shai in prison.


Edited by Nepene, 04 June 2013 - 02:25 PM.

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#2 Kurkistan

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 08:13 AM

Good on you, Nepene. While we have a bit of a history of disagreeing on the interpretation of quotes, you've always been very good at finding and remembering them.

Feel free to drop me a line if you ever want help hunting down something that you can't re-find. Also, it wouldn't hurt if you would throw in the links for all of these quotes, so that people can read the whole interview and/or cite them directly in the future.

Edited by Kurkistan, 28 February 2013 - 08:15 AM.

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#3 Cheese Ninja

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 02:41 PM

What do you think of adding the quotes about Hoid using Shadesmar to hop between worlds, between different places in a single world, and a "time dilation" trick to speed up the passage of the time? (Think super-Cadmium, it's so that he doesn't have to live through the boring centuries. You already have a different part of the same quote listed.) I can understand if you don't want to put too much of a focus on Hoid, since I think Hoid can, if not break, at least bend the rules for magic systems.

I think there were also some quotes about it being possible to use magic systems outside their world of origin, but that some were easier to get working than others. I can't remember if there were specifics given. I had imagined that Aons would be an example of a more difficult magic system to use off-world, and Awakening and Allomancy would be easier.

Found it: Same Reddit AMA.

Q:Would the various magic systems work on different worlds? For example, would a Mistborn be able to use his/her abilities in the world Way of Kings is located on?

A:It depends on the magic system. They are all related to a kind of "Spiritual DNA" that one gets from their heritage on a specific planet. However, there are ways around that. (Hemalurgy, for example, 'staples' a piece of someone else's soul to your own, and creates a work around to give you access to magic you shouldn't have.) Some of the magics are more regionally tied than others. (In Elantris, you have to access the Dor, which is very regionally influenced.)

The end answer is this: With in-depth knowledge of how the magics work, and their connection, one could probably get them all to work on other planets. It may take effort for some of them.


I've been wrong with a lot of my recent guesses as to the timeline/dates of Way of Kings, here's a more accurate update.

Words of Radiance Spoilers

Spoiler

Kinda Sorta Theories: Shalash Visited Kholinar before Gavilar's Assassination, Hoid Plans to Restore Adonalsium, Nohadon Altered how Nahel Bonds Work by Writing Way of Kings*, Sunmaker and the Heirocracy Both Changed Vorin Theology

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#4 Meg

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 03:06 PM

Found it: Same Reddit AMA.

Q:Would the various magic systems work on different worlds? For example, would a Mistborn be able to use his/her abilities in the world Way of Kings is located on?

A:It depends on the magic system. They are all related to a kind of "Spiritual DNA" that one gets from their heritage on a specific planet. However, there are ways around that. (Hemalurgy, for example, 'staples' a piece of someone else's soul to your own, and creates a work around to give you access to magic you shouldn't have.) Some of the magics are more regionally tied than others. (In Elantris, you have to access the Dor, which is very regionally influenced.)

The end answer is this: With in-depth knowledge of how the magics work, and their connection, one could probably get them all to work on other planets. It may take effort for some of them.

(emphasizes mine)

I'm not sure if I did misunderstand something but I remembered one of the last signings where I've read this:

Me: Aons look like Arelon; soulstamps look like MaiPon. Aons get weaker when you get further from Arelon, right? That's not just cause Elantris acts like a focus?
BS: That's right, it's based on distance. That's why there are no stamped objects in Elantris.
Me: So do soulstamps get weaker further from MaiPon? If you left Sel via Shadesmar and went to another planet, would the soulstamp stop working?
BS: That's correct.


Doesn't the latter statement (kind of) reverse the older statement if only about Sel and Aons and Stamps?

Where is my fallacy?
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#5 NewbSombrero

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 03:39 PM

Me: Aons look like Arelon; soulstamps look like MaiPon. Aons get weaker when you get further from Arelon, right? That's not just cause Elantris acts like a focus?
BS: That's right, it's based on distance. That's why there are no stamped objects in Elantris.
Me: So do soulstamps get weaker further from MaiPon? If you left Sel via Shadesmar and went to another planet, would the soulstamp stop working?
BS: That's correct.
Me: Could soulstamps be carved that used Arelon as a base form instead of MaiPon?
BS: That's very interesting, isn't it?

Source


I think this may be able to resolve those issues you're seeing, Meg. Maybe the regionally tied magic systems can be tweaked to fit other regions, which would probably take considerable effort. I think this is probably in keeping with all of what we've heard so far from Brandon.
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#6 Kurkistan

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Midnight Essence

Posted 28 February 2013 - 03:43 PM

PSA time: Please, everyone, provide links for all quotes. Not doing so is not only somewhat rude, but also exceptionally counterproductive. For instance:

As we see from NewbSombrero above (he did that while I was typing my post), the answer to Meg's question was literally two lines down from the quote that provoked it.

There are two possible circumstances here:

1) Meg got her abridged quote second-hand from someone who didn't provide a link. If the link had been provided, she could have investigated and seen that there was no contradiction.

2) Meg got the quote directly from the Q&A, but did not realize the import of the last two lines. So it was left to the rest of us to figure it out with no clues. If someone who either hadn't read the original question or didn't have a good memory had seen that quote without any context, they would not have known of how accessible the answer was. As it was, I had to go through half-a-dozen steps to get to the appropriate thread and pull in the link (before I realized Sombrero had already done it). That should not have been necessary.

---

And, as as general rule, it's just a lot better to have as much cross-linking as possible. A good wiki is a dense wiki, and a good theory-based forum is one where every relevant fact or thread is directly attributed and linked to. It's okay if you don't know the exact thread, or simply lack the time, but, as a rule, you should link whenever you can.
</PSA>

P.S. As a fun fact, you can link to individual questions in the WoT Database by adding "#<number>" to the end of the url, where <number> is the number of the question when you look at the interview it originally came from. So if you do a keyword search and find something interesting, then click on the link to the interview it came from, find the interesting passage again, and see what number it is.

P.P.S. Also, this isn't aimed at Meg at all. Sorry if I come across as a bit harsh. I've just been noticing a disturbing tendency away from direct attribution, and it's hard enough to become Cosmere-conversant as it is.

EDIT: Oops, Meg did have a link. As kindly pointed out by Meg here, it's a proper quote, so there is an "arrow", which I failed to notice for some reason. Although I still think the general point stands, I ought not to have used Meg's post as an example. Sorry about that.

Edited by Kurkistan, 01 March 2013 - 11:10 AM.

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#7 Nepene

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 05:12 PM

What do you think of adding the quotes about Hoid using Shadesmar to hop between worlds, between different places in a single world, and a "time dilation" trick to speed up the passage of the time? (Think super-Cadmium, it's so that he doesn't have to live through the boring centuries. You already have a different part of the same quote listed.) I can understand if you don't want to put too much of a focus on Hoid, since I think Hoid can, if not break, at least bend the rules for magic systems.

I think there were also some quotes about it being possible to use magic systems outside their world of origin, but that some were easier to get working than others. I can't remember if there were specifics given. I had imagined that Aons would be an example of a more difficult magic system to use off-world, and Awakening and Allomancy would be easier.

Found it: Same Reddit AMA.


I added the Hoid stuff and the Aon stuff. I left out the later stuff- Brandon doesn't directly explain or confirm or hint how you would get Sel (Elantris and TES world) magic to work on other worlds so it is not relevant to my post, and I am trying to keep it theory free. If you can go to a signing perhaps you could ask him and your quote would go on the page.

On the lack of links, I am trying to keep the main body of the post very readable to newcomers. Lots of links in it makes it look rather imposing- are you expected to read every link before you go on? I like the stream of consciousness effect, like a very long monologue by Brandon.
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#8 Kurkistan

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 05:16 PM

^More options are always better, I say. :)

Maybe you could throw in a "these links are here for attribution purposes, no need to read them all!" disclaimer in?
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#9 Nepene

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 05:51 PM

^More options are always better, I say. :)/>

Maybe you could throw in a "these links are here for attribution purposes, no need to read them all!" disclaimer in?


http://www.businessi...ss-2012-12?op=1

http://en.wikipedia....us_or_Minus_Two

More options means more confusion. It's good for veterans (aka you) who have the experience to slog through the many options but not so good for newbies. Simplicity is good.

What do others think, especially those who are less experienced with the Cosmere, would you prefer all the links in the text?
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#10 Kurkistan

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 06:12 PM

^It's more options in the sense of "click on this link to learn more and/or attribute it properly in the future, or just keep reading." 2 < 5.

And frankly, I think that new members or worst-served by not providing attributions. We vets have vague memories of where we first read all this stuff, we've read all the interviews that we wanted to--so don't need a source to find more--and we're better versed at searching the WoT database, this forum, and Googling for Cosmere stuff in general.

Either of us could find a direct link to one of those quotes in a few minutes, while new members are lost in a sad haze of confusion and torment, with no idea of even where to start looking.

Tell you what. I'll start a poll. I'm fairly sure most everyone will agree with my side.
http://www.17thshard...-be-attributed/

Edited by Kurkistan, 28 February 2013 - 06:16 PM.

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#11 Nepene

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 06:20 AM

^It's more options in the sense of "click on this link to learn more and/or attribute it properly in the future, or just keep reading." 2 < 5.

And frankly, I think that new members or worst-served by not providing attributions. We vets have vague memories of where we first read all this stuff, we've read all the interviews that we wanted to--so don't need a source to find more--and we're better versed at searching the WoT database, this forum, and Googling for Cosmere stuff in general.

Either of us could find a direct link to one of those quotes in a few minutes, while new members are lost in a sad haze of confusion and torment, with no idea of even where to start looking.

Tell you what. I'll start a poll. I'm fairly sure most everyone will agree with my side.
http://www.17thshard...-be-attributed/


Then, with reluctance, for you and the community it is done.

Though I'll note on the earlier issue of Aons it is right that they were confused as Brandon hasn't explained the issue. A fuller quote does not change that. The more you know the more questions arise.

Edited by Nepene, 01 March 2013 - 06:32 AM.

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#12 Kurkistan

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 06:40 AM

^And so Sharders of the world did rejoice as linkage was provided unto them! Thanks.

Your theoryland links don't seem to be linkifying, by the way.
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#13 Nepene

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 08:14 AM

^And so Sharders of the world did rejoice as linkage was provided unto them! Thanks.

Your theoryland links don't seem to be linkifying, by the way.


Apparently the forum dislikes www.madeuplinks.com as opposed to http://www.madeuplinks.com

Edited by Nepene, 01 March 2013 - 08:14 AM.

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#14 happyman

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 08:46 AM

I think a little line at the bottom of a quote saying "Source" and linking to the interview (or giving book/page #) would be appropriate. I've seen it elsewhere, and it's not too hard to do. I need to get better at it myself, but if you're going to go really in-depth, it's just polite.

Edit: Of course, discretion is advised. It really depends on how formal the debate is. If you are setting up a thread suited for formal theorizing (at any depth), it is more appropriate than, say, for a quick reminder to somebody on a tangential subject.

Edited by happyman, 01 March 2013 - 08:48 AM.

My favorite probably-not-canon fan quote:

 

"Oh yeah we burn metals in an actual furnace.  What, none of your guys ever tried that?"

 

Axies, Syl, and the Cryptics: an awesome name for a band

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#15 Meg

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 10:48 AM

PSA time: Please, everyone, provide links for all quotes. Not doing so is not only somewhat rude, but also exceptionally counterproductive. For instance:

As we see from NewbSombrero above (he did that while I was typing my post), the answer to Meg's question was literally two lines down from the quote that provoked it.

There are two possible circumstances here:

1) Meg got her abridged quote second-hand from someone who didn't provide a link. If the link had been provided, she could have investigated and seen that there was no contradiction.

2) Meg got the quote directly from the Q&A, but did not realize the import of the last two lines. So it was left to the rest of us to figure it out with no clues. If someone who either hadn't read the original question or didn't have a good memory had seen that quote without any context, they would not have known of how accessible the answer was. As it was, I had to go through half-a-dozen steps to get to the appropriate thread and pull in the link (before I realized Sombrero had already done it). That should not have been necessary.


On topic: I didn't quote this two lines because I think that they are not important for my question. Brandon's answer "That's very interesting, isn't it?" for me is no statement, no confirmation and no evidence. I read it as "This might be." and a possibility doesn't give evidence.

So as I understand this Brandon said it might take an effort to use magic on other planets and it might be that soulstamps could be carved with Arelon as a base. I am looking for facts which I think should be provided with such a thread. I apologize for having misunderstood the intention.
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#16 Kurkistan

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 10:57 AM

On topic: I didn't quote this two lines because I think that they are not important for my question. Brandon's answer "That's very interesting, isn't it?" for me is no statement, no confirmation and no evidence. I read it as "This might be." and a possibility doesn't give evidence.

So as I understand this Brandon said it might take an effort to use magic on other planets and it might be that soulstamps could be carved with Arelon as a base. I am looking for facts which I think should be provided with such a thread. I apologize for having misunderstood the intention.

Ah, yes, you are right there that it was not a definite fact. I think we've all been reading this as just about as certain as "Shallan has what you think she has"--which I think is justified--but you're right that we're not sure.

Sorry, I suppose I misread your post as a genuine question of befuddlement, not a "doesn't this raise interesting questions?". You asked

Doesn't the latter statement (kind of) reverse the older statement if only about Sel and Aons and Stamps?

Where is my fallacy?


while that very contradiction indicates the "yes" that we've been reading from Brandon's "that's interesting". Sombrero and I were trying to allay those fears of contradiction with the most plausible answer to it.

But so far as making this thread 100% hard facts, you are right that such a theory, even if widely held, is not certain.

Also, once again, I apologize for what can be read as a bit of a personal attack: As I said, "this isn't aimed at Meg at all. Sorry if I come across as a bit harsh. I've just been noticing a disturbing tendency away from direct attribution, and it's hard enough to become Cosmere-conversant as it is."

Edited by Kurkistan, 01 March 2013 - 10:58 AM.

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#17 Rubix

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 12:44 PM

Apparently the forum dislikes www.madeuplinks.com as opposed to http://www.madeuplinks.com

Either that, or you can use the insert link button in the post box. :)

I am Joshin Yomen, and I'm here to ask you a question. Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?

'No!' says the man in Elendel, 'It belongs to the poor.'
'No!' says the man in Alethkar, 'It belongs to the Heralds.'
'No!' says the man in Urteau, 'It belongs to everyone.'

I rejected those answers; instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose... 17thShard.
A website where the members would not fear the admins, where the spikings would not be bound by petty morality,
where the nobility would not be constrained by the skaa!
And with our spikes in your eyes, 17thShard can become your website as well.

 

Don't ask me for sources, would you kindly?

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#18 Meg

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 12:59 PM

Because I'm bit of a hair-splinter I dare giving one (last) comment on "confirmation" and "possibilities" and therefor I use this example. But, I've got to point out, that all reading is a bit of interpreting too, so I feel right about my interpreting others don't have to stand with me.

This statement from Brandon I interpret as a (more or less) definite "Yes". What we think is our thing (even if I'm sure that we nearly all think the same :)).

But "That's interesting, isn't it?" or similar answers are -- in my opinion -- not nowhere near to a "definite" proposition.

This makes a big difference for me (especially in threads like this). Please, I don't want to insult anyone I only try to tell my point of view. I'd like to get answers to it, both, agreeing and disagreeing, to learn more about the habits here.
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#19 Kurkistan

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 01:09 PM

^I assume you meant this one (you have to throw in #15 at the end of the url for the 15th answer), which, coincidentally, I rather terribly mangled in my paraphrase. And you are right. The answer to the Shallan question is a "yes" at an event where people weren't supposed to ask spoilers, while the other one was nearly trolling. It's not self-evident, but becomes nearly as evident, to most people's eyes, when considered in the broader context.

Once again, you are right that such suppositions shouldn't be in a purely factual thread, although an "everyone assumes X, but we're not sure about it" might be appropriate.

Edited by Kurkistan, 01 March 2013 - 01:18 PM.

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#20 Nepene

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 01:34 PM

Either that, or you can use the insert link button in the post box. :)/>/>/>/>/>


www.noyoucannot.com

I tried that initially. The link box does have an http:// awaiting you but I didn't realize that was necessary and deleted it when I copy pasted the link in.

^I assume you meant this one (you have to throw in #15 at the end of the url for the 15th answer), which, coincidentally, I rather terribly mangled in my paraphrase. And you are right. The answer to the Shallan question is a "yes" at an event where people weren't supposed to ask spoilers, while the other one was essentially trolling. It's not self-evident, but becomes nearly as evident, to most people's eyes, when considered in the broader context.


It doesn't actually become self evident. There are a number of possibilities of what he could find interesting.

There is no direct evidence on the subject whether magic works in exactly the same way across a planet. We don't know exactly what he means. A lot of things could be interesting to him. Meg was entirely right to ask the question. It is a topic of ongoing inquiry and fans should continue to ask questions about it.

Besides which, Meg was inquiring about how you would get the magic to work on another world. That opens another whole can of worms. There are a lot of possible ways you could get the magic to work on other worlds and we don't know which one Brandon will use (though it is implied that there is a way to do it). Meg's inquiry was entirely reasonable.

There is no unambiguous answer, implied or otherwise, that we can give to Meg's questions.

Edited by Nepene, 01 March 2013 - 07:51 PM.

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