shardblade Changed Scene at the end of Words of Radiance

[Odium's_Shard]

In his blog post here, Brandon is talking about the change he made to a scene at the end of Words of Radiance involved the confrontation between Szeth and Kaladin. In summary, he says that he made it so that the storm killed Szeth, and not Kaladin. Or more importantly, not Kaladin's Shardblade.

 

I'm not sure if this has been discussed here before (I couldn't find it) so I'm just going to open a discussion about this particular quote from the paragraph explaining this.

 

The question this raises is about Szeth being stabbed by a Shardblade, then being resuscitated. I’m sad to lose this sequence, as it’s an important plot point for the series that dead Shardblades cannot heal the soul, while living ones can. I’m going to have to work this into a later book, though I think it’s something we can sacrifice here for the stronger scene of character for Kaladin and Szeth.

- Brandon Sanderson 

 

Source *emphasis added*

 

What does this mean? Which Shardblade is he talking about here?

Is it that Kaladin's Shardblade being living allows him to decide if the soul is taken, or give it back, or?

Or is it Darkness' living Shardblade that is used to resuscitate Szeth after he falls from the sky?

Or is it Szeth who is given/gains a living Shardblade of his own, which heals his own soul (this sounds the more likely meaning Brandon was going for)?

 

I'm just curious as to what you guys think are the connotations of such a thing, which Brandon says is an 'important plot point for the series'?

[PeterAhlstrom]

Relevant: what it says on the back cover of Words of Radiance.

[DreamEternal]

Nalan used a healing fabrial of sorts when healing Szeth, so it being his blade is out.

I believe he meant that surgebinding from a living spren(like in a radiant or fabrial) can heal a soul, while an honorblade can't.

Another possibility is that when a sprenblade kills, it also repairs the soul, perhaps removing Odious influence? Like, kill a voidbringer with a living shardblade and the voidspren bonded to it is destroyed? Nalan said that Szeth was reborn, and he did seem somewhat sanner to me, altough not much. And I don't like the idea if the unmade making Szeth evil, since it takes much of the tragedy of him destroying himself because his faithfullnes and honor conflited with his compassion when they could have been virtues if he was not made truthless

Edit:

Ninja-ed by Peter!

Interesting. Maybe it means that honorblades also need a broken soul, or even break the soul themselves to give surgebinding, but while a spren can also help hold the broken soul together or even heal it, honorblades may only make it worse. I actually like it, Szeth having his soul broken further by his own Blade, both by the killing and by the power itself he used to kill. Way better than "Odium did it".

Edited May 27, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Cracknut]

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/23702-brandon-tweaking-words-of-radiance/
More broad topic there but you'll most likely find some stuff about that quote as well.

[Moogle]

Szeth couldn't heal Shardblade wounds with an Honorblade. Kaladin could with a living spren. I really don't think there's more to it than that.

 

Szeth being healed by Nalan is irrelevant, as it seems Regrowth was used on him. Even Honorblades with Regrowth can heal Shardblade wounds, as Taravangian makes clear.

[Kurkistan]

Edit:

Ninja-ed by Peter!

Interesting. Maybe it means that honorblades also need a broken soul, or even break the soul themselves to give surgebinding, but while a spren can also help hold the broken soul together or even heal it, honorblades may only make it worse. I actually like it, Szeth having his soul broken further by his own Blade, both by the killing and by the power itself he used to kill. Way better than "Odium did it".

 

Hm, an intriguing reading. I had initially had the opposite idea (Honorblades not needing a broken soul at all to work), but I think I may like yours more...

 

To do our due diligence, though, what about that opposite reading of mine? One gets the impression that the bond to an Honorblade is much more "shallow" than most magic we've seen, so it may be the case that they simply don't need broken souls in order to do their thing. This may even tie into your own thoughts if we want, as the lack of "deep level" access to the soul might preclude Honorblades healing it...

 

Okay, still liking your idea a bit better.

[natc]

The spiritual damage is usually necessary to invest yourself, so I'd think to inhale stormlight at all the honorblade would have to break you.

It does kind of explain the heralds going mad I guess?

[navybrandt]

Relevant: what it says on the back cover of Words of Radiance.

 

It is the nature of magic. A broken soul has cracks into which something else can be fit. Surgebindings, the powers of creation themselves; they can brace a broken soul, but they can also widen its fissures.

I think I'm just restating what has already been said, but these are the points I get from this information.

 

1. A soul must be broken before it can surgebind (have a place that Investiture can fit).

2. This broken soul concept spills into other Cosmere works (such as snapping in Mistborn).

3. When you use Investiture, it can either brace your broken soul and hold it together, or it can widen the fissures and break your soul more. (I see no reference to actually healing anything - it either prevents it from getting worse or makes it worse).

4. At this point Shardblades aren't mentioned - It's just talking about Investiture. Implying that the type of Investiture you use and/or how it's used is what braces or breaks.

 

The question this raises is about Szeth being stabbed by a Shardblade, then being resuscitated. I’m sad to lose this sequence, as it’s an important plot point for the series that dead Shardblades cannot heal the soul, while living ones can. I’m going to have to work this into a later book, though I think it’s something we can sacrifice here for the stronger scene of character for Kaladin and Szeth.

- Brandon Sanderson

5. This is talking about Kaladin's Shardblade - no longer just Investiture.

6. It's Kaladin's living Shardblade that would have healed Szeth's soul - no longer just bracing or breaking.

7. Honorblades are not living Shardblades.

8. Dead Shardblades sever the soul while living ones heal the soul.

9. This implies that Kaladin's living Shardblade would not have killed Szeth so much as heal his soul - and Szeth died from the fall not from the stabbing.

[DreamEternal]

That, it doens't make much sense since Syl did kill Szeth in the original edition, wich was changed for characterization issues, not worldbuilding. Unless you believe, like I theorized before Peter gave us a hint, that being killed and ressurected restored Szeths sanity. Also, nowhere it says it is Kaladins blade what is doing the healing, or Szeth is the one who has his soul healed.

All in all, I believe that a living spren heals his radiant soul, or at least holds it together, while an honorblade just breaks it further. Perhaps a regular dead sprenblade also breaks its wielder's soul?

Edited May 28, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Odium's_Shard]

Another possibility is that when a sprenblade kills, it also repairs the soul, perhaps removing Odious influence? Like, kill a voidbringer with a living sh

Interesting. Maybe it means that honorblades also need a broken soul, or even break the soul themselves to give surgebinding, but while a spren can also help hold the broken soul together or even heal it, honorblades may only make it worse. I actually like it, Szeth having his soul broken further by his own Blade, both by the killing and by the power itself he used to kill. Way better than "Odium did it".

 

I feel like probably what was the most important thing to take from this quote was that the Honourblade is incapable of healing Shardblade wounds and that those who are Invested properly i.e. Knights Radiant are able to heal wounds to their soul (presumably because of their Cognitive link to their spren, since we know healing has a Cognitive aspect to remember what a human should look like, aka, having use of all their limbs, the spren is able to 'boot' back to a previous 'copy' and use Investiture to restore the Spiritual Connection).

 

 

9. This implies that Kaladin's living Shardblade would not have killed Szeth so much as heal his soul - and Szeth died from the fall not from the stabbing.

 

I don't think that living Shardblades heal the other person. I definitely think that living Shardblades act much as dead ones do when they act on other people, i.e severing their soul points, but I think that what is more important here is seeing 'having a living Shardblade' as 'being Invested by Honour' as opposed to just owning a magical construct.

 

 

Hm, an intriguing reading. I had initially had the opposite idea (Honorblades not needing a broken soul at all to work), but I think I may like yours more...

 

To do our due diligence, though, what about that opposite reading of mine? One gets the impression that the bond to an Honorblade is much more "shallow" than most magic we've seen, so it may be the case that they simply don't need broken souls in order to do their thing. This may even tie into your own thoughts if we want, as the lack of "deep level" access to the soul might preclude Honorblades healing it...

 

Okay, still liking your idea a bit better.

 

Hmmm, Honourblades must have some sort of access to the soul for them to act ask usual Shardblades in disappearing and reappearing and being tied to their owner. They also must add something to the soul for them to be able to Surgebind...

 

Perhaps, it is just that: mere an addition, like a welding to the side of the soul. So, it enables to soul to access the Surgebinding and Spiritual power/Investiture, but because it doesn't come with a Cognitive aspect (a spren) which acts in parallel to the soul, it is unable to heal the Shardblade cut by the Cognitive mechanism I described above?

 

The lack of a Cognitive aspect (guiding spren) might also contribute to the madness of the Heralds, or the furthering of the 'fissures' into the soul Brandon was talking about. The person is broken, but has nothing to guide their recovery or improvement, they have power without accountability.

 

This makes me really wonder what Honourblades really are with respect to Honour... are they Splinters, like perhaps the spren? Or are they (random leap time) a mix of Honour and Odium, combining Surgebinding with the Odious influence (and explaining their connection to the Desolations and the torments experienced by Heralds between them?). Are the links to Honourblades the same links that tie the Heralds to Odium so that he can take them back to Damnation?

[Moogle]

I feel like probably what was the most important thing to take from this quote was that the Honourblade is incapable of healing Shardblade wounds and that those who are Invested properly i.e. Knights Radiant are able to heal wounds to their soul (presumably because of their Cognitive link to their spren, since we know healing has a Cognitive aspect to remember what a human should look like, aka, having use of all their limbs, the spren is able to 'boot' back to a previous 'copy' and use Investiture to restore the Spiritual Connection).

 

I doubt we need to look into Realmatics to explain why Szeth couldn't heal his soul. Feruchemists and people with Regrowth can manage it without issue, so there's no real need for Cognitive shenanigans. A far simpler theory is that Szeth simply couldn't hold enough Stormlight to manage it. Szeth healed wounds like a broken face in "hours", while Kaladin healed a broken foot in seconds. Kaladin also uses basically everything he has when he heals Shardblade wounds - when he does it the first time, his glow all-but-disappears. Szeth is just too weak to handle it.

 

---

 

Regarding Honorblades breaking the soul, I doubt it. Seons can be Passed, and I sincerely doubt the ritual for that involves beating the recipient into a Snapping-equivalent. In a similar way, Honorblades could just form the connection without serious harm.

 

Keep in mind that we only see Snapping in systems where multiple competing Shards exist. Brandon explains the reason for Snapping here (Mistborn spoilers).

 

Speculation: On Roshar, it would make sense for humans to be of Honor and Odium, so you need some Snapping to overcome the Odium in you - the little bit of Odium in you repels the bond of a spren of Honor/Cultivation, so you need to Snap and form a crack to let the spren in. Honorblades, on the other hand, are gigantic boulders of Investiture and just push the Odium out of the way and let themselves in, neither helping nor hurting the soul.

[Odium's_Shard]

I doubt we need to look into Realmatics to explain why Szeth couldn't heal his soul. Feruchemists and people with Regrowth can manage it without issue, so there's no real need for Cognitive shenanigans. A far simpler theory is that Szeth simply couldn't hold enough Stormlight to manage it. Szeth healed wounds like a broken face in "hours", while Kaladin healed a broken foot in seconds. Kaladin also uses basically everything he has when he heals Shardblade wounds - when he does it the first time, his glow all-but-disappears. Szeth is just too weak to handle it.

 

What I was looking to Realmatics for is the process through which Regrowth and Feruchemy Healing and other similar processes are able to heal back a lost limb or 'restore' rather than 'heal'. As you say, Szeth's face healed back to its original shape, it did not simply stop bleeding or stabilise in that shape.

 

So I was proposing that for Stormlight users it is something Cognitive storing their typical Form which they can revert back to (though this might not be relevant to the context of the argument, since Szeth can also heal 'back' to a previous Form of himself). What might be relevant is that Szeth is unable to revert changes to his soul (like a tether being cut).

 

As you say, this may be a measure of the kind of amount of Stormlight we're talking about here, but to me it seems like the power of Szeth's normal abilities and powers are on a level with Kaladin's, and it doesn't seem like if he tried to use up all of the Stormlight currently in him he could ever heal a Shardblade wound. It seems to me that the 'living' bit, i.e. having a bonded spren, is responsible in some way (whether through amplification of Stormlight power or additional Cognitive presence or other) for the ability to heal Spiritual wounds.

 

 

Regarding Honorblades breaking the soul, I doubt it. Seons can be Passed, and I sincerely doubt the ritual for that involves beating the recipient into a Snapping-equivalent. In a similar way, Honorblades could just form the connection without serious harm.

 

Keep in mind that we only see Snapping in systems where multiple competing Shards exist. Brandon explains the reason for Snapping here (Mistborn spoilers).

 

Speculation: On Roshar, it would make sense for humans to be of Honor and Odium, so you need some Snapping to overcome the Odium in you - the little bit of Odium in you repels the bond of a spren of Honor/Cultivation, so you need to Snap and form a crack to let the spren in. Honorblades, on the other hand, are gigantic boulders of Investiture and just push the Odium out of the way and let themselves in, neither helping nor hurting the soul.

 

I think the point here to me about fissuring isn't that Honorblades do this more, but to me that all forms of Investiture like this leave you in some way 'cracked', or that you must start 'cracked' to even let the Investiture in and become bonded or a Misting or whatever.

 

But, with an Honorblade, you might crack, or be cracked, or become cracked as Szeth seems to, and have no guiding influence or moral code you have to follow and no accountability, and this might lead people down the wrong path and end up causing further 'fissuring', which potentially might allow other more Odious influences in? 

[Moogle]

As you say, this may be a measure of the kind of amount of Stormlight we're talking about here, but to me it seems like the power of Szeth's normal abilities and powers are on a level with Kaladin's, and it doesn't seem like if he tried to use up all of the Stormlight currently in him he could ever heal a Shardblade wound. It seems to me that the 'living' bit, i.e. having a bonded spren, is responsible in some way (whether through amplification of Stormlight power or additional Cognitive presence or other) for the ability to heal Spiritual wounds.

 

Power is mostly irrelevant in Surgebinding:

Question

If a non Windrunner picked up Jezrien's honorblade would they gain Windrunner powers as well?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Question

If a Windrunner picked up that blade, would their abilities be enhanced?

Brandon Sanderson

There would be some compounding but strength is not as much an issue with surgebinding as is the strength of the spren bond and how much Stormlight you are using.

(source)

 

My interpretation of this is that you can very easily scale up the power of your Surges. You can create similar-power effects without issue in Surgebinding - if you're less efficient, you can just use more Stormlight. Just because Szeth seems like he's on a similar level as Kaladin doesn't mean he isn't using 2x or more Stormlight for each Lashing. Again, Kaladin uses most of his Stormlight with each Shardblade wound he heals - if Szeth is using far more Stormlight, it makes sense that he won't be able to manage this.

 

Szeth quite plainly has issues in this regard. It is specifically noted at the end of WoR that he glows much less brightly than Kaladin. (Squires also glow less brightly than Radiants, as per the Purelake vision.) Syl even claims Szeth is using "dangerous" amounts of Stormlight, and he's still not matching Kaladin in brightness.

 

I think the point here to me about fissuring isn't that Honorblades do this more, but to me that all forms of Investiture like this leave you in some way 'cracked', or that you must start 'cracked' to even let the Investiture in and become bonded or a Misting or whatever.

 

But, with an Honorblade, you might crack, or be cracked, or become cracked as Szeth seems to, and have no guiding influence or moral code you have to follow and no accountability, and this might lead people down the wrong path and end up causing further 'fissuring', which potentially might allow other more Odious influences in?

 

While possible, I don't know that I'd use Szeth as an example. His moral code is what lead to everything he did. He didn't need accountability. He followed his code perfectly without a spren to guide him.

 

Perhaps the Honorblade let Odium's influence in, and that's why he became so insane that he was considering killing Adolin (which is where I would consider Odium's influence to maybe be a significant factor), but I think the same thing would have happened even if he just had a regular blade. Take a look at Lin Davar. Look at what he did to his family. He didn't have an Honorblade, and Hoid hints that what happened to him was not entirely natural. Why should Szeth's Honorblade be considered a factor?

 

To actually address 'cracks in the spirit': I think people are maybe interpreting this in the wrong way. Cracks form because the spirit is actively damaged. You get beat up, you have such an intense emotional reaction that you Snap, something incredibly significant has to happen. You can't just crack the soul silently. (We actually have a WoB on Shardblade bonding, but I don't recall specifics - something about the body being sick in part because it thinks the bond is an infection?)

 

When you get a crack, you can form a bond with an outside thing. In Allomancy, you might get a link to Preservation, a conduit through which you can bring Investiture. In Surgebinding, you gain a bond to a spren. But you don't need this to use Investiture. Feruchemists don't need to Snap, nor do Awakeners.

 

You don't even need to bond an Honorblade to use it:

Macen

If someone is using an Honorblade, would they be able to bond a spren?

Brandon Sanderson

It is indeed possible.  It does not block it.  Good question.  You do not have to bond Honorblades.  Honorblades work with whoever holds them.

(source)

 

The way I'm reading things, there's no requirement for there to be cracks to use an Honorblade.

 

On the whole, I just don't think the theory has much evidence going for it.

[Odium's_Shard]

I think the whole 'you do not have to bond Honorblades' definitely throws the wrench in the works for the cracks in Szeth, those formed through some other process as you say. I do however think that even in Nalthis there is a 'crack' that the Investiture is filling, its just that everyone on that planet is born with it filled.

 

When you give up your Breath and become dull or whatever the word is, it's like something the Investiture was filling is missing, like a 'hole'. I'm not sure that this has any way that it can be taken advantage of, so in that case it isn't like a 'crack', but I feel like its something similar.

[Kurkistan]

Regarding the mechanics of soul-healing, it looks like there's likely some high-level shennanigans going on there, as it turns out that healing is normally a spiritually-driven process. For one, healing a shardblade wound seems to result in a "patch" of entirely new soul, rather than just reestablishing some connections.