Do Blade kill the same?

[Oudeis]

I had been taking something on faith, but it only just occurred to me to wonder. Do all Shardblades kill the same way?

 

That we know of, there are three distinct "types" of Shardblades. An Honorblade, a living Sprenblade, a dead Sprenblade, and we're told that Nightblood is also a type of Shardblade.

 

Do they all kill the same way?

 

Leaving Nightblood aside for a moment, the victims of Honorblades and both types of Sprenblades seem to perish in similar manners. I've just been assuming that they all died the same way. Do they? If anyone is going to do a re-read anytime soon and wouldn't mind, please keep an eye out for specific descriptions of the victims of different types of Blades; any noticeable differences would be much appreciated. I will check myself next time I epic re-read but I just read the novels recently and that prolly won't be for a while.

 

Nightblood. Many of his kills are with his scabbard on, and mimic mundane attacks with obvious supernatural empowerment. But what about the one time he is drawn?

 

The other types of Blades phase through mortal flesh without leaving a mark, severing the soul and turn limbs grey with a non-fatal stroke, and burning the eyes to black smoke on a fatal one. Nightblood... does not seem to have a non-fatal setting. Any touch of the blade seems to reduce the target, be it human or anything else, entirely into black smoke all in one go. Is this simply an incredibly overpowered extension of a normal Blade's deathblow? If someone strong enough to not be killed instantly by Nightblood were to be wounded, would her limbs turn grey?

 

And, of course, other Blades cut through solid matter like air. Nightblood turns matter into smoke. Again, difficult to compare.

 

I would be fascinated to discover and dissect any differences in the ways the various weapons harm people and things.

[Arondell]

Well thanks to the recent changes to the end of Words of Radiance we know that a living spren blade is supposed to have some sort of healing effect on the soul when killing that a dead one does not.   Mr. Sanderson said that loosing this was the one aspect of the changes that he regretted but he would just have to find a place to put it in latter on.

[Voidus]

Well Nightblood is essentially just a twisted Shardblade that's had it's Investiture cranked up to 11 so I think it's just the natural extension of other Shardblades abilities.

[hoser]

I had been taking something on faith, but it only just occurred to me to wonder. Do all Shardblades kill the same way?

 

.... Nightblood... does not seem to have a non-fatal setting. Any touch of the blade seems to reduce the target, be it human or anything else, entirely into black smoke all in one go...

Really?  That's not what I remember.  Fatal, but no reducing to black smoke. 

 

Warbreaker spoiler

from the Prologue

He stepped around the pool of blood—which was seeping down the inclined dungeon floor—and moved into the guard room. The three guards lay dead. One of them sat in a chair. Nightblood, still mostly sheathed, had been rammed through the man’s chest. About an inch of a dark black blade was visible beneath the silver sheath.

[Edgedancer]

Really?  That's not what I remember.  Fatal, but no reducing to black smoke. 

 

Warbreaker spoiler

from the Prologue

He stepped around the pool of blood—which was seeping down the inclined dungeon floor—and moved into the guard room. The three guards lay dead. One of them sat in a chair. Nightblood, still mostly sheathed, had been rammed through the man’s chest. About an inch of a dark black blade was visible beneath the silver sheath.

Yes but

that wasn't Nightblood's destructive magic killing him. That was Nightblood manipulating him into commiting suicide. Once he actually gets unsheated he essentially does what Sprenblades do on crack and obliterates everything and not only the spiritual connection.

[natc]

Really? That's not what I remember. Fatal, but no reducing to black smoke.

Warbreaker spoiler

from the Prologue

He stepped around the pool of blood—which was seeping down the inclined dungeon floor—and moved into the guard room. The three guards lay dead. One of them sat in a chair. Nightblood, still mostly sheathed, had been rammed through the man’s chest. About an inch of a dark black blade was visible beneath the silver sheath.

That's sheathed Nightblood.

Unsheathed Nightblood practically vaporizes walls on contact.

[Guest]

General similarities (though Scale may be different)

I think Honorblades and Sprenblades can be assumed to be very similar/identical in what they do, since Sprenblades are Spren-based copies of Honorblades.

 

The mechanism of killing seems to be the same across all Blades, but the size of the effect is different

For example, Shardblades are touch-only (but the effect is conducted along the spinal cord), while Nightblood seems to have an entirely conductive effect that causes entire people to Smoke Out.

 

Note that Smokeing Out LIVING objects isn't unique to Nightblood, just the scale of the effect, (from WoR P978 in the eBook, Chapter 83, during the summoning of the Everstorm)

Standing amid a field of the newly dead—the acrid smoke of burned-out eyes curling up through the rain—he trembled and dropped his Blade in disgust.

 

Note I couldn't find any examples of Sprenblades creating smoke from non-living matter, BUT since Roshar existed prior to the Shards this could be a difference in the very matter that makes up these 2 planets (Nalthis matter could be Invested, while Rosharan isn't)

 

 

Seeming differences:

Nightblood consumes Investiture from it's wielder. This seems counter-intuitive to me, since Nightblood has been described as "full" of Investiture, so where is this power going and why is it needed?

 

As I mentioned above, Rosharan Blades seem to handle non-living matter differently from Nightblood, but it may be a difference of the matter itself.

 

Rosharan Blades can Bond to a living being, and grant Magic powers to the one they're Bonded with. Nightblood does not seem to grant powers, instead draining Investiture.  It is unclear if Nightblood can Bond with a living being. (Was Nightblood Bonded to Vasher? Or just saw him as a friend?)

 

Rosharan Blades do not always have a Physical form.

[Arook]

As far as I can remember night blood is never used unscathed on a living person and denth implied that if he had used the sword to kill arsteel that a body would have been around after words. basher does make lifeless And wall vanish with night blood but not living flesh

[Oudeis]

Lab rat:

 

There's a WoB somewhere saying that if Nightblood feeds off of you Investiture and you survive the experience, it does forge a sort of bond with you. It is one vague, obscure quote and I think it would be premature to assume that this means the bond is anything like a Nahel bond, though it's of course a possibility, all the more so if we accept the possibility that we don't understand Nahel bonds as well as we think from the one explicit example we've been given.

[WeiryWriter]

Well thanks to the recent changes to the end of Words of Radiance we know that a living spren blade is supposed to have some sort of healing effect on the soul when killing that a dead one does not.   Mr. Sanderson said that loosing this was the one aspect of the changes that he regretted but he would just have to find a place to put it in latter on.

 

I disagree with this interpretation. The way I understand it is that being bonded to a living Shardblade allows one to heal a Shardblade cut, while being bonded to a dead one does not.

[Oudeis]

I disagree with this interpretation. The way I understand it is that being bonded to a living Shardblade allows one to heal a Shardblade cut, while being bonded to a dead one does not.

 

Concur, though I remember that Mr. Sanderson's explanation was grammatically very confusing. I thought he was saying, Kal's bond to Syl means he can use Stormlight to heal the damage of a Shardblade, i.e. when he healed his arm. Szeth's... whatever sort of connection he's got to his Honorblade cannot heal from Shardwounds, i.e. his neck was sliced and he couldn't heal. Like I said, his phrasing was very confusing and I hadn't assumed as much from the text before his explanation, but I believe this is what he meant. I personally had just assumed that it was the fatality of the blow. If Szeth had cut straight through Kal's neck, surely Kal would have died faster than the Stormlight could have healed him, but apparently not. Also, apparently if one single Shardbearer had managed to cut Szeth's hand, he might have been without the use of that hand (unless he could remove the whole limb and heal back the whole thing. Has anyone asked that question yet?)

[Arondell]

I disagree with this interpretation. The way I understand it is that being bonded to a living Shardblade allows one to heal a Shardblade cut, while being bonded to a dead one does not.

 

Well the specific quote is :

 

 

The question this raises is about Szeth being stabbed by a Shardblade, then being resuscitated. I’m sad to lose this sequence, as it’s an important plot point for the series that dead Shardblades cannot heal the soul, while living ones can.

 

If he was referring to the ability of a bonded blade to heal the wielder then it is indeed a very confusing way to state it.  I didn't think he was referring to the honor blade since it was never alive in the first place.  Also at least two of the honor blades should have the regrowth surge that should enable such soul healing for the wielder.  Indeed that is part of the lie that Taravangian used on Szeth.  So yeah, I am now unsure. 

[Thexerronn]

I'm pretty sure that Brandon didn't want to get rid of the information that someone who was killed by a Shard Blade could be revived. In the revised WoR, Szeth died from being thrown into a rock or something, while as in the first edition, Szeth was killed by Syl. The difference between the two versions being of how Szeth died, and the circumstances under which he was revived.

[Guest]

As far as I can remember night blood is never used unscathed on a living person and denth implied that if he had used the sword to kill arsteel that a body would have been around after words. basher does make lifeless And wall vanish with night blood but not living flesh

 

Nightblood was used on a number of Lifeless, and I *THINK* some live guards at the same time. Would need to do a careful re-read of the fight, but I'm at work so can't

 

Arsteel was a Returned, so his Physical form may not fit into the Living/Dead "Normal" categories that everything else does. At the least, his Divine Breath would make him a heavily Invested object

[Arook]

Nightblood was used on a number of Lifeless, and I *THINK* some live guards at the same time. Would need to do a careful re-read of the fight, but I'm at work so can't

 

Arsteel was a Returned, so his Physical form may not fit into the Living/Dead "Normal" categories that everything else does. At the least, his Divine Breath would make him a heavily Invested object

 

 

 

Edit:   Spoilers ahead because on my computer its not working like it should.

 

All living guards were dead or had run by the time Vasher arrives if I remember. Also dude with sword that makes lifeless vanish into mist is not a guy I'm going to fight and most of the rebels are not hardened soldiers. Most of the rebels were off on specific tasks and the palace was filled with lifeless to kill everyone. the only living guards were with the Godking, Denth and Blue fingers. There was also a post at the entrance to prevent others from arriving to help, which Nightblood killed or made flee before Vasher arrives.

Arsteel may indeed not fall into the same category as a normal living thing if a divine breath provides the same investiture as 2000 breaths. I do not feel that is the case and Arsteel had suppressed his breath at the time of death. But more importantly Vasher metions the same wound marks that other bodies have like that is the main way to tell if Nighblood was used to kill. He makes no note of the body being drained of color like someone who died holding Nightblood. The lifeless process drained the color from Arsteel not Nightblood. I also don't think you can wield Nightblood truly unless drawn, making Nightblood less effective than a normal sword while sheathed.

[DreamEternal]

But Vasher did wield nightblood half-drawn once, to save the daughter of a high-priest of one of the gods. It cut like a regular, fully drawn sword, if I remember correctly.

[WindrunnerRadiant]

I don't entirely think Nightblood is a shardblade in the same sense as the spren-corpse Roshar Shardblade. Personally, I think the WoB on that just means that he is a heavily invested weapon, as in a weapon that has a large part of a Shard in it.

 

Also, It seems that Nightblood does not necessarily turn living flesh to smoke when it kills, although the only solid example, it was left mostly sheathed. So, possibly any cut from the actual blade does, we don't know. Judging from the way investiture seems to work around living flesh (Roshar shardblades instead cut the soul, Allomancy has a hard time having an effect on metal piercing skin, etc) I would assume it would be different. Still completely lethal, like pulling all the investiture out of the person followed by their soul kind of lethal.

[Arook]

 like pulling all the investiture out of the person followed by their soul kind of lethal.

 

Agreed

 

 

Also shard blades and nightblood do not have a significant amount of investiture as a whole but maybe a better way to say it is that the investiture per square inch is higher than in most things. I mean we are talking about water vapor(everything) vs a table spoon of water(spren, Nightblood, shardblades) as compared to an ocean or sea(a Shards collective power).

 

 

Half drawn nightblood is still sealed and the sheath is metal so if you hit something hard enough it could slash a person. being we do not know what it is made of or why it is able to do what it does.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Arook

[Guest]

Also shard blades and nightblood do not have a significant amount of investiture as a whole but maybe a better way to say it is that the investiture per square inch is higher than in most things. I mean we are talking about water vapor(everything) vs a table spoon of water(spren, Nightblood, shardblades) as compared to an ocean or sea(a Shards collective power).

 

 

Half drawn nightblood is still sealed and the sheath is metal so if you hit something hard enough it could slash a person. being we do not know what it is made of or why it is able to do what it does.

 

While I agree overall with your water analogy, based on previous WoB's regarding Nightblood I think Nightblood would be more like a cup of water vs the tablespoon of regular Shardblades.

Nightblood's been described as "Magnitudes more Invested" a few times, so I think TLR vs a normal Mistborn (maybe even a Misting) is the power difference we're talking about.

 

 

As for that Sheath, people have been able to stab themselves through the chest with it, which would take an incredible amount of force for a normal, blunt sheath. It also HAS to be Invested to be containing Nightblood's power, so I've always thought of that Sheath as acting more like a regular sword blade than like blunt metal.

 

Maybe when being wielded, it projects an Investiture edge along itself? But one that doesn't sever the Spiritual? That last part definitely seems off.

[Arook]

So I have this old machete that I use from time to time I dont bother to sharpen it and i can do a lot of damage and is very dull. If i can cut bushes with it I'm sure Nightblood wielding a person can stab through someone, it is all about the force used. more force makes an edge irrelevant to a lightly armored person. I do not think Nightblood's sheath projects an edge along its self. Most sheaths with metal end caps have a ball at the end to prevent stabbing your self with the tip accidentally.

 

As for the sheath being invested this is most likely the case though in what way is hard to say but it is defiantly harder than most metal, steel included.

[Guest]

This is (close to) how I imagine the Sheath:

 

It's not just dull, it's BLUNT. Maybe I'm completely wrong, but this is how it's imagined in my mind.

[natc]

Well there are guards for shardblades that stop them from cutting through everything they touch as well.

We need someone to swing a shardblade at aluminum to see if it does anything. The fact the Nightblood sheath keeps impaling people is odd though.

Edited May 27, 2015 by natc

[Arook]

Nightblood is straight not curved that changes the sheath in most cases but ya it does not need to be sharp.

 

This is closer to the style of what Nightblood looks like in my mind.

 

http://static-5.nexusmods.com/15/mods/110/images/16991-1-1336926392.jpg

 

 

Only with an all metal sheath.

 

 

@natc

 

The thing that throws me is the sheath seems to be able to with stand an abnormal amount of damage.  

[Cactuschef]

I think Nightblood IS a spren blade, but has various idosyncrasies because of the way he was created. I recall someone (probably Vasher) saying that creating it shouldn't even have worked or that they didn't know why it did, something of that nature, which suggest to me that a spren was involved, which explains his sentience. So far we've never seen anything sentient created with investiture alone, you need a soul of some kind to start with, or you just get an animated object or corpse (the only grey area so far being the returned as far as I recall but I'd bank on them either being based off the original person's soul or some other pre-existing intelligence, not just investiture becoming a person). it also fits with his limited memory, because he lacks a proper bond with a human, the same way syl or pattern lose their memories without the bond or a weak bond. I think the differences in the way nightblood works in warbreaker is partially because of his unique method of creation, but also because he's being fuelled by breath rather than stormlight. it seems likely that an invested being's abilities would behave differently when fueled by a different type of investiture. and I doubt nightblood would be on roshar if he couldn't run on stormlight, because otherwise he'd be less a weapon than a sword-shaped suicide booth, since no one (local) has breath.

[DreamEternal]

Nice theory

But how the hell would a spren show up in Nalthis? And why it would enter a sword just as Vasher awakened it? I do believe that nightblood wasn't created by regular awakening, but I doubt it involved spren or some weird offworld magic loophole, just a weird magic loophole.