theory The Nightwatcher

[kaladin_stormblessed_]

Spoilers for WOR and WOK below

 

It seems to me that as of WoR, we have little knowledge of the nightwatcher. Many people know of it (her?), but it is surrounded by mystery. The nightwatcher is referred to as evil in a way that I see as similiar to how voidbringers are, but shouldn't something of Cultivation be beneficial, not evil? My theory is that the nightwatcher is a fusion of odium and cultivation, perhaps a splinter of cultivation that was "hijacked" by odium. This could explain why there is a boon and a curse, and why they are balanced in severity, as odium and cultivation are balanced for control in the Nightwatcher, and one can only use power while allowing the other to use the same amount,

similiar to Ruin and Preservation in the Mistborn trilogy

 

Evidences: (sorry there's no page numbers, they're from my kindle)

 

The Nightwatcher is Evil:

Around the campfire in WoK in Chapter 27 Chasm Duty, Skar says he would "join the Nightwatcher herself around a fire if there was stew involved"

Kaladin in the WoK Chapter 14 Payday say to Syl, "Bringing death and lies wherever I go. Me and the Nightwatcher."

In WoK Chapter 65 The Tower, Dalinar is wondering if he should trust the visions, "They could be from the Nightwatcher or the Voidbringers."

 

These all go to show that the Nightwatcher is seen as evil, or at least her curses are.

 

The Nightwatcher is part of Cultivation:

Wyndle seems to mention that "mother" has influenced lift in WoR. In the Chapter Lift he says, "She has visited the Old Magic,'... 'Our mother has blessed her," Now this is alot of assumption, but because of Growth, I'm assuming that Wyndle is a little piece of Cultivation, and "Mother" would be referring to Cultivation. It seems strange that the old magic and cultivation are mentioned separate, but the blessing is from the old magic and "mother."

 

This supports the idea that boons are from Cultivation.

 

Now, in a more speculative sense, could the Nightwatcher be one of the Unmade? Another topic, but slightly relevant.

This theory came to me recently as I read Rothfuss's Wise Man's Fear and came to the part about the Cthaeh, something that saw the future perfectly, and was perfectly evil. This strikes me as something like the Nightwatcher, as in one of Dalinar's visions, Tanavast mentions something like Cultivation is better at seeing the future than he is.

Part of this is an attempt to figure out why Mr. T is so evil, as there is currently a theory named "Taravangian's real way of saving mankind" by Raysen_ht, and it revolves around the fact that Mr. T's brilliance is actually his curse.

So now I've got the groundwork laid.

In conclusion, I think the Nightwatcher is an Unmade that is equal parts Odium and Cultivation, with the odious parts granting curses matching severity to the boons Cultivation gives.

 

Holes in Theory:

Lack of Knowledge about the Nightwatcher in general

The source of the Nightwatcher's evil reputation could just be people bitter about their curses

Cultivation is a force that isn't inherently evil or good, so may not be balanced by odium

The Cthaeh already exists, and Brandon is an original writer, I feel he wouldn't reuse an idea.

Mr. T really could be doing the best thing for the world in the Diagram, taking a "survival"

       approach

similiar to TLR's bunkers in The Hero of Ages

rather than fighting approach.

 

This is my first published theory, so sorry about its disorganization.

 

[kaellok]

Have an e-cookie for an interesting theory!

 

Now here's why I think it's probably wrong (sorry, I destroy/ruin everything; it's what I do).

 

1a.  "The Nightwatcher is Evil" evidence that we have has a parallel in the real world, too--Christianity vs. various 'pagan' religions.  Due to the current incredible dominance of Vorinism, and knowing that it replaced something before it (the Nightwatcher is referred to in combination with the Old Magic, after all), I don't think this stands as evidence of the Odius connection by itself.  It just stands as evidence that humans hate that which is Other, and will label it as evil.

 

1b.  Specific to Dalinar, he went to the Nightwatcher and received a curse and a boon.  He may be referencing that trip as a cause of the visions.  Or throwing it out as an unlikely possibility.  Think of statements some people make like "I don't care if they're black, or white, or blue, a person is a person!"  Obviously people aren't blue, but by including that as a possibility it's supposed to make their argument stronger.  Dalinar is trying to decide whether he's going insane or not--I think that leaves the possibility of extreme rambling and thoughts.

 

2.  There's a WoB that addresses the Nightwatcher.  I'll paraphrase, because I'm too lazy to search for it (but not too lazy to type this up in thoughtful detail; go figure).  "Q: Is the Nightwatcher to Cultivation as the Stormfather is to Honor?  B: You're on the right track."  To me, this implies that  there is definitely something else going on with the Nightwatcher, but I find it more probable to due to Cultivation still being alive than mixed with Odium.  (Although, I guess it argues equally well for you.)

 

3.  Cultivation came to Roshar with Honor, and before Odium (there's another WoB somewhere that Honor and Cultivation were romantically linked before Honor's untimely Splintering.)

 

4.  A WoB that I tried to actually find is that the Unmade are actually Splinters of Odium.  I couldn't find it, though.  But the Coppermind has it listed as truth, for what it's worth.  Which is as much as this e-cookie!  Have another!  There's also a fixed number of Unmade, and that number is not 10.  I have a great memory for WoB, just..can't...seem to find them.  Anymore.

 

Because I don't just wreck everything, here's a little something more for ya that helps link Cultivation and Odium:

 

a1.  When asked, Brandon said that the parshmen were not originally of Cultivation, not originally of Odium, and not of Honor (took multiple questions to get those answers.)  Additionally, we know that there's parshmen blood in some humans (like Rock).  Also additionally, we know that both Cultivation and Odium have played around with the genetics of living things on Roshar so that they can, like, live.  And stuff.  The way the questions were asked and answered, it seemed like it was all separate actions and not cooperative, but--vagueness, ya know?  Like, to me it sounded as though Odium modified the peoples so that he'd have a way to get his magic into them so that he could influence them and cause terrible destruction.  Cultivation did things because she likes flowers and life.  (Again, though, tremendous paraphrasing and assumption.)

 

Also, I went back looking for a couple WoB because I decided I should spend at least 10 seconds searching.  Found this thread I don't remember seeing before.  It's talking about some of the same things as you (nature of the Nightwatcher.)  

[WindrunnerRadiant]

Hmm... I agree that I don't really buy the theory of the boon being of Cultivation and the curse being of Odium. However, I also have some mixed feelings towards Kaellok's response... Or maybe I just like arguing. Hum.

 

1a. Yep. I think there is some of this going on.

 

1b. Umm... I'm honestly not sure what you're trying to get at. We know that neither the curse nor the boon were the visions. Actually, we know that the visions are from Honor, although he's deceased ish and all, given to Dalinar by the Stormfather.

 

2. Brandon goes on to say it isn't quite right, so yes, there is something else going on. However, the Stormfather is almost a sliver of Honor. Basically, he is kind of what is left of Honor, but not exactly. Sorry that isn't more clear. What I'm getting at is that the Nightwatcher could be completely of Cultivation without being to Cultivation what the Stormfather is to Honor.

 

3. Just because Cultivation came with Honor and separately from Odium doesn't mean they couldn't both be trying to control or be giving power to the Nightwatcher. The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

4. As far as I can tell, all of this matches WoBs. Too lazy to look them up though.

 

a1. I'm pretty sure from this we can gather that that the Listeners were on Roshar pre-Shattering and thus direct creations of Adonalsium. And I doubt the Shards changed the genetics of the life on Roshar and I will need a WoB on that before I believe it. I think all living things became 'of' Cultivation just because of her nature. And as for Odium controlling the Listeners, there is a WoB on this. He said it is similar to how Ruin controlled those spiked Hemalurgically, but that it was through the Voidspren. I guess how he put it was that the Voidspren had a sort of 'hole' Odium could fill to control them and that when the Voidspren bonded the Listeners, it also allowed him to control them.

 

My only presentation on this is that I don't see any problem with the Nightwatcher being evil (not that I really think she is) while also being solely of Cultivation. We may think of Cultivation as 'good,' but we don't really know. Cultivation could very well it is in the best interest of Life all around to destroy mankind and proceed to try to do so. The idea of Cultivation seems very neutral to me. Beyond that, I certainly don't think of 'Darkness' as necessarily 'good,' but he is technically a servant of Honor, which seems to be the most on the 'good' side a Shards intention can get. Things just quite simply aren't as simple as black and white.

 

I feel like I've rambled far to much here... Oh well.

[DreamEternal]

The greatest hole in your theory is saying the Nightwatcher may be evil, since she only seems to give her curses to those who seek out her blessings, and tries to give a curse and a blessing of equal value. Still, considering Cultivation apparentily stopped caring about Roshar, and the Nightwatcher lives in Shinovar, home of the misterious and fanatical Stone Shamans, I believe this theory is worth considering.

[hoser]

The Night watcher lives in a valley somewhere between Tu Fallia and Emul. It's on the in-book map and not in Shinovar at all. It's in the same general area as Urithiru.

Edited May 23, 2015 by hoser

[DreamEternal]

Does she? I remember she lived in the Valley of Truth. The main characters say it is in the East, althought everything is in the East for them, but Lift visited it sometime between leaving Rall Elorim and going to Azir, so Shinovar fits better. Plus, in the Baxil interlude it is said that she lives in the Valley, but it is not said wich Valley.

Edited May 23, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[WeiryWriter]

Does she? I remember she lived in the Valley of Truth. The main characters say it is in the East, althought everything is in the East for them, but Lift visited it sometime between leaving Rall Elorim and going to Azir, so Shinovar fits better. Plus, in the Baxil interlude it is said that she lives in the Valley, but it is not said wich Valley.

 

Yes, as hoser says it is on the map, basically just start at the "L" in Purelake and go down:

 

[DreamEternal]

Well, i suppose this makes sense, but rust and ruins, Lift travelled a lot. Wonder how she has been from Northern Iri to the doorstep of the vorin kingdoms and didn't see the Reshi Isles. Did she just walk all the way without taking a boat? Since she didn't have any powers yet i doubt she could travel so far only with stolen supplies. Makes me want to re-read her chapter and theorize.

[kaladin_stormblessed_]

Thanks for all the thoughts, I realized it was a vague hope to think I'd found all the holes. Furthermore, everything that was brought up here seems to be more accurate than most of my theories, but like most theories, I was just hoping to start a discussion rather than find an accurate answer. Though from all the contrary evidence it seems I am farther from the truth than I would like.

[Odium's_Shard]

a1. I'm pretty sure from this we can gather that that the Listeners were on Roshar pre-Shattering and thus direct creations of Adonalsium. And I doubt the Shards changed the genetics of the life on Roshar and I will need a WoB on that before I believe it. I think all living things became 'of' Cultivation just because of her nature. And as for Odium controlling the Listeners, there is a WoB on this. He said it is similar to how Ruin controlled those spiked Hemalurgically, but that it was through the Voidspren. I guess how he put it was that the Voidspren had a sort of 'hole' Odium could fill to control them and that when the Voidspren bonded the Listeners, it also allowed him to control them.

 

IIRC, with the Inquisitors and those that have been Hemalurgically spiked, this affected their Spiritweb such that there was a backdoor to Ruin (seeing as the spike needs to create a link to Ruin when the whole ritual is observed in order for it to work/have power) where the spike was placed. This allowed him to access them and in the case of those heavily spiked actively control them, as they were Invested more and more in him. 

 

Similarly, for the Voidspren and the Listeners I believe the same occurs, in that by way of forming a bond (is it the same sort of Nahel bond?) with the Voidspren in order to access the Investiture that comes with it (that powers the abilities), they Invest themselves more and more in Odium and hence he gains a degree of control over them. It also seems like their self and their Ideals become more and more aligned with him (similarly to those engaging in an Honor Nahel bond becoming more and more aligned with the Ideals of their Order?).

 

The only reason I am hesitant is because the Voidspren bond may not be the same (it seems more forced) so the Ideals point may be off, and the singing of the songs complicates matters (maybe they aren't aligning with Ideals of Odium, but are instead more likely when under his influence to access Forms that constitute the emotions their songs express, a greater tendency towards Rage etc., since they all seem to be accessing the same Form to sing the same song when they bring the Everstorm).

[WindrunnerRadiant]

The bond is more forced with the Voidspren. We even find out that those already in Stormform can force others to assume it. So it is more forced. And thanks for the much clearer statement about how the whole process could work.

[DreamEternal]

Do we know that those in stormform can force it upon others? I remember those who refused where rounded up outside Narak by Eshonai to be killed befire they escaped. Or are talking about the Everstorm turning parshmen into voidbringers? Because parshmen don't have bonded spren, so it would be easier for voidspren to force a bond.

Edited May 24, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Natsume]

Now that I think of the nightwatcher there was this interlude that I didn't understand. It was abt 2 guys and a woman breaking in some palace and destroying art. Do we know who the woman was and why they were doing such a thing? Sorry if this is out of context I don't know if I should create a thread for this.

[DreamEternal]

It is supected that she is the herald Shalash, since we see many destroyed images of her and there is the following death rattle:

"I see a woman sit and scratch out her own eyes. Daughter of kings and winds, the vandal."

Brandon also confirmed that Shallash is Jezrien's daughter.

Edited May 28, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Odium's_Shard]

The bond is more forced with the Voidspren. We even find out that those already in Stormform can force others to assume it. So it is more forced. And thanks for the much clearer statement about how the whole process could work.

 

On this lines IIRC, aren't the Voidspren at some points trapped, and a fabrial like device is used to create a bond? Or was that with a regular spren (Listener spren though) that was not necessarily of Odium. I don't believe that the form granted from this forced bond was the Stormform. I maybe be wrong on this though, I'm in line for a reread of WoR.

 

 

Do we know that those in stormform can force it upon others? I remember those who refused where rounded up outside Narak by Eshonai to be killed befire they escaped. Or are talking about the Everstorm turning parshmen into voidbringers? Because parshmen don't have bonded spren, so it would be easier for voidspren to force a bond.

 

This raises a good point: what causes the Parshmen to turn? As you say, it might be that the Everstorm contains an abundance of Voidspren (don't the Listeners go into the normal highstorms to search for spren for their other more normal forms?) which under the force of the storm or the presence of Odium or some other mechanism forcibly bond the parshmen to them?

 

This would cause them to enter (or be involuntarily entered into) Stormform, from which Odium could manipulate them to become ferocious and attack innocents (or their new alignment with Odium could cause them to be violent anyway, like Eshonai's changed personality).

[natc]

The reason they normally trap the spren first these days is so they don't have to wait for the storm to come then attract a spren on the spot hoping it would work.

Imagine trying to get mateform by standing out in a highstorm by doing kinky stuff or something while the environment is being torn to pieces. With the Stormfather watching. Yeah no.

The highstorm seems required to transform so far. Or something similar like an Everstorm.

[Guest]

The highstorm seems required to transform so far. Or something similar like an Everstorm.

Technically, the "Moment of Transformation" is what they need. I'm willing to bet that Moment is the exact same Moment that gemstones fill with Stormlight, which would mean they need either a LOT of Investiture to power the Transformation (so it could in theory be accomplished with a huge number of Gems), or a direct link to Investiture (maybe this is what "rips" a hole in their Spiritweb to allow the Spren in?)

[DreamEternal]

Since parshendi, as well as many of Roshar native lifeforms, need to bond to spren, I would assume their spiritwebs already come with a spren shaped hole.

[Odium's_Shard]

Perhaps the method of the making of Parshmen (or the method by which they were made meek from the typical emotional Parshendi) is a forced Transformation of Form to Dull Form or whatever it is... presumably this means that in order to be in Dull Form, some sort of dullspren is needed to even maintain this form, and assuming they came from the Parshendi who were the Listeners and assuming that in the past it was the Parshendi Voidbringers that fought in the Desolations, then all Parshmen contain within them already this 'hole' for Odium to fill and voidspren them up (if they can be forced to dullform, then they can be forced back to voidform).

 

Also, as to why the Parshendi Listeners themselves are apt to this voidspren nonsense, I think its that the act of Investing themselves in normal spren bonds and Forms and such (and the way they must be designed as organisms to facilitate this as a reproductive method) 'cracks' their soul, or leaves 'fissures' through which other influences can affect them.

 

The discussion on this kind of 'fissuring' occurring in Investiture processes is being discovered over here at the moment and might have some interesting points to consider (other than my own).

[Guest]

Dullform is a result of a failed bonding (wrong Spren), or failure to attract a Spren. Eshonai makes a reference to it happening by accident sometimes in WoR.

I suspect that Parshmen are simply a result of no Spren bonding for multiple generations. So 2 Parshendi have a child, that child starts as Dullform and can hear the "rhythms". So long as that child bonds at least 1 Spren, their children are born Dullform, but if 2 Dullform who never bonded a Spren have a child, that child can no longer hear the "rhythms" and becomes a Parshmen.

[Odium's_Shard]

Unless it smacks into them in an Everstorm, presumably...