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'Entering' Shadesmar? Aren't you already there...


Turos

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“All things exist in three Realms, Gaotona. Physical, Cognitive, Spiritual. The Physical is what we feel, what is before us. The Cognitive is how an object is viewed and how it views itself. The Spiritual Realm contains an object’s soul— its essence—as well as the ways it is connected to the things and people around it.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2012-11-04). The Emperor's Soul (p. 53). Dragonsteel Entertainment, LLC. Kindle Edition.

 

 

 

Shai's comment is accurate, as far as I understand realmatics.

 

Everything exists on the three realms. What can we glean from this?

 

Syl exists on three realms. She has a physical form, though she can choose to hide it from all but select individuals. She has a cognitive form, like all spren, which is their natural form, you might say, being cognitive creatures. She has a spiritual form, evident through her bond with Kaladin. Regardless of this bond, we know that Syl, like all things, is in all three realms. It seems she, like other spren, is naturally more tied to the cognitive realm.

 

Shallan exists on the three realms. She has physical form. She has cognitive and spiritual forms as well. I say forms, but I mean aspects.

 

And then I actually do mean forms. When Shallan visits Shadesmar, the cognitive realm. She can see beads representing the cognitive forms of things. Shallan has a cognitive form, as well, being a bead. My question is why doesn't she appear to be a bead when she enters the cognitive realm?

 

We know that spren have two complex forms, one in the physical realm and one in the cognitive realm, the latter being, perhaps, more complex.

 

What exactly happens when one 'enters' Shadesmar? Aren't they already there? Aren't they also in the mysterious spiritual realm? What does that look like? Can someone 'enter' it, too?

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Shallan's actually normally a flame in Shadesmar, but I agree that the broader question of what it means to "enter" Shadesmar is odd, as well as what it means for spren to "more fully" enter the Physical.

 

Also we just recently got a WoB that the Spiritual doesn't have any correlation at all to location, which makes guessing what it "looks" like a fair bit harder.

Edited by Kurkistan
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A person's perception depends on what sensory data reaches his mind. Even then, the mind does not make every bit of information it receives perceivable; it sometimes hides sensory data, or changes it to fit an abstract pattern. Think of the brain in a jar concept, or even the concept of illusion. Perception is all in the mind.

So even if a person is already part of Shadesmar (as well as part of the Physical and Spiritual Realms at the same time), that does not mean he should be able to perceive Shadesmar automatically.

The act of "entering" Shadesmar makes a person finally perceive the Cognitive Realm, or at least the representation of the Cognitive Realm that his mind presents to him. This means that instead of processing sensory information about the Physical Realm, the mind starts processing sensory information about the Cognitive Realm. At this point, the act is a purely mental (cognitive :P) transformation. Worldhoppers like Hoid and Jasnah can go one step further and actually remove themselves from the Physical Realm completely.

 

This simultaneous existence in three realms can be confusing. I tried to make it somewhat less confusing in my L-Theory by conjecturing that objects in the Cosmere are just a bunch of strings connecting the Realms together, which is how they can be in all three Realms at once. In this case, Worldhopping is simply a matter of detaching your Identity's component strings from their location in the Physical Realm, moving them through the Cognitive Realm, and reattaching them to another location in the Physical Realm.

Edited by skaa
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Sorry to nitpick, but Jasnah is not a worldhopper, at least yet.

That is correct. My bad. :)

I think we need an umbrella term for everyone who can travel in and out of the Physical Realm, whether they do it to hop between Shardworlds or not. How about Realmhoppers or Travellers? Or we could use the Rosharian term "Elsecallers", since Hoid seemed comfortable using the term "Elsecall" in WoR.

Edited by skaa
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I would say that cognitive realm is all about perception a normal person or animal does not see them self in the cognitive realm so have no body there. But when a person begins to perceive actively the cognitive realm then they take the shape they think they should have. as for who can enter I think it only has to do with mental state. I do not think any additional things are needed but some people like jasnah have a greater affinity than others. I think the key diffrence jasnah has is she might be able to shift others into the cognitive with out the mental aspect needed for Shallan and Kaladin to view that realm. Although it is possible that a focus is needed for someone without some kind of  inherent investiture to view and interact with the cognitive realm.

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That is correct. My bad. :)

I think we need an umbrella term for everyone who can travel in and out of the Physical Realm, whether they do it to hop between Shardworlds or not. How about Realmhoppers or Travellers? Or we could use the Rosharian term "Elsecallers", since Hoid seemed comfortable using the term "Elsecall" in WoR.

I'm a fan of Realmhopper.

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I would say that cognitive realm is all about perception a normal person or animal does not see them self in the cognitive realm so have no body there. But when a person begins to perceive actively the cognitive realm then they take the shape they think they should have. as for who can enter I think it only has to do with mental state. I do not think any additional things are needed but some people like jasnah have a greater affinity than others. I think the key diffrence jasnah has is she might be able to shift others into the cognitive with out the mental aspect needed for Shallan and Kaladin to view that realm. Although it is possible that a focus is needed for someone without some kind of  inherent investiture to view and interact with the cognitive realm.

 Ooo. Yeah! I forgot Kaladin saw a vision of Shadesmar. Very interesting, and most likely due to his bond with Syl.

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 Ooo. Yeah! I forgot Kaladin saw a vision of Shadesmar. Very interesting, and most likely due to his bond with Syl.

 

True but how much of that connection was inherent in the bond or because of what Kaladin was trying to do at the time and where his mind was focused.

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As far as 'entering' Shadesmar, I would have to guess that it has to do with your consciousness. Yes, in realmatics, everything exists in all three realms, but people generally on consciously perceive themselves to be in the physical. 'Entering' Shadesmar is switching your conscious perception of yourself to be in Shadesmar. Or, that would be my first guess, and it seems to fit with what is held to be true by most people.

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Here's the big question:

 

Why is the cognitive realm so easy to travel through?

 

We know that the cognitive realm skips areas in the physical realm that are void of intelligence. This tells me that it is a map of the minds. I imagine that the reason the cognitive realm is location-based at all is because location is part of our perception. Regardless, by worldhopping by means of Shadesmar, aka the cognitive realm, in actuality you are thinking yourself elsewhere by navigating through a sea of other minds.

 

I wonder if things aren't so much location-based as they are perception based. By this I mean I am feel the chair under me that I am sitting on, so I know the chair is nearby. I see the wall a few feet from me, so I know the wall is close. I am aware that the street outside is farther from me, and my assumption of that remaining true, even though I can't immediately sense it, holds some connection. Obviously, if the street did move somehow, closer objects with their own perceptions would 'know' otherwise and out-vote my assumptions. The sea of beads makes more sense to me this way.

 

It could all just be an understanding that the contents of the universe share, much like Syl's explanation of the laws of physics.

 

 

“Laws are of men, Kaladin. Nature doesn’t have them!”

 

“If I toss something upward, it comes back down.”

 

“Except when it doesn’t.”

 

“It’s a law.”

 

“No,” Syl said, looking upward. “It’s more like . . . more like an agreement among friends.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (The Stormlight Archive, Book 2) (p. 130). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

Edited by Turos
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The thing i find most interesting, is that Shadesmar/Cognitive Realm is connects to the different Shardworlds and each Shardworld has differing ways of entering Shardworlds.

 

Do they? What if some worlds have more than the normal way like shallan does. Jasnah does something that others don't to enter so her entrance is different then all the other orders and people. It could be how Kaladin and Shallan enter the way all other shard worlds do.

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Hmm. Shadesmar = internet. :( Shadesmar just became a very scary place.

 

I wonder why it's call 'Shadesmar.'

 

I assume Spanish isn't a language in Roshar, but 'mar' means ocean. Ocean of shades. Shadows. Hmm.

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Hmm. Shadesmar = internet. :( Shadesmar just became a very scary place.

 

I wonder why it's call 'Shadesmar.'

 

I assume Spanish isn't a language in Roshar, but 'mar' means ocean. Ocean of shades. Shadows. Hmm.

 

Shadesmar translates as "Cognitive Realm" in some ancient Rosharan language.

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Here's the big question:

 

Why is the cognitive realm so easy to travel through?

 

We know that the cognitive realm skips areas in the physical realm that are void of intelligence. This tells me that it is a map of the minds. I imagine that the reason the cognitive realm is location-based at all is because location is part of our perception. Regardless, by worldhopping by means of Shadesmar, aka the cognitive realm, in actuality you are thinking yourself elsewhere by navigating through a sea of other minds.

 

I wonder if things aren't so much location-based as they are perception based. By this I mean I am feel the chair under me that I am sitting on, so I know the chair is nearby. I see the wall a few feet from me, so I know the wall is close. I am aware that the street outside is farther from me, and my assumption of that remaining true, even though I can't immediately sense it, holds some connection. Obviously, if the street did move somehow, closer objects with their own perceptions would 'know' otherwise and out-vote my assumptions. The sea of beads makes more sense to me this way.

 

It could all just be an understanding that the contents of the universe share, much like Syl's explanation of the laws of physics.

 

For some reason, the way I always thought of this wasn't that they were travelling through the Cognitive Realm, but that they we using their aspect in the Cognitive Realm in order to 'channel' or refine their ability to travel (between Shardworlds or otherwise). To elaborate...

 

I've always thought of the Realms as a process, that is their Physical 'reality', a sort of description in terms of location, appearance, which they can alter and change through the Cognitive Realm by taking Investiture/Power of Creation etc. from the Spiritual Realm... to me the Cognitive Realm feels like a bridge between the two which tie you to your Power of Creation and 'channels' it to the usable form. You need the right Investiture/sDNA/Nahel bond etc. to be able to access it but if you do, you do it through the Cognitive.

 

So, in the case of worldhopping or elsecalling or whatever else, hearing about this new WoB in regards to the Spiritual Realm not being tied to location or at least location based gave me the idea for the following process:

 

The Elsecaller is in their Physical location, and they decide to 'hop'. They access (since this is a topic about entering Shadesmar, my personal opinion is similarly that it is a perspective change) the Cognitive Realm, which takes the form of a sea of beads. In Shadesmar, the location of objects or at least the distances to anything else in the Cosmere may be highly condensed (as the beads of things in the same room might fit into a hand e.g.). Hence visualising or obtaining the Physical location 'data' of the object/place they're trying to hop to is easier/possible. By channeling Investiture through this data or path they're visualising/actualising in the Cognitive Realm to their Physical 'location' aspect, they change the value or however else it is determined such that their Physical 'reality' changes and they have moved/hopped to the new location.

 

I don't think of it as them moving their entire Physical aspect into the Cognitive and then moving it and putting it back, but I do think the fact that the Cognitive Realm being tied to location (but possibly not in the same way as the Physical) is essential (it can access this 'data'). The Spiritual not being tied to a location also makes sense, as your Spiritual reserves don't need to 'move' with you (your new Cognitive location can still access the Spiritual in the same way), and when you dispel your Shardblade it is accessed the same way, no matter your location. 

 

Just my personal thoughts on Investiture processes, applied to the specific instance of Elsecall.

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Would it be a fair parallel to say that the physical realm is similar to the Matrix, in that the spiritual and cognitive are the programming and the physical is the GUI? Lots of stuff going on behind the scene controlling what everything is and does, although the cognitive is a little closer to a developer interface when someone visits.

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Would it be a fair parallel to say that the physical realm is similar to the Matrix, in that the spiritual and cognitive are the programming and the physical is the GUI? Lots of stuff going on behind the scene controlling what everything is and does, although the cognitive is a little closer to a developer interface when someone visits.

 

That's sort of the idea that I was having, Spiritual Realm is like the power source (and in a weird way, User Account Control?), Cognitive is like the motherboard and the BIOS (which only some users know how to access) and the Physical is like what is being shown on your monitor.

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