wolverinehokie Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Mr. T thinks Shallan's brother could have taught her surgebinding Already they hypothesized that the girl had been trained. If not by Jasnah, then by the girl's brother, before his death. If Mr. T is correct either 1 Helaran bonded a spren or 2 Helaran stole an Honorblade Mr. T told Szeth "I have learned this only recently. Yes it makes sense now. One of the Honorblades has vanished." Seth blinked, and he focused on Taravangian, as if returning from a distant place. "One of the other seven?" "Yes," Taravangian said. "I have heard only hints. Your people are secretive. But yes ... I see, it is one of the two that allow Regrowth. Kholin must have it." I know Mr. T was intentionally misleading Szeth, but what if an Honorblade really is missing? It's something Szeth could theoretically check on so Mr. T wouldn't want that to be a lie. I've read other ideas related to number 1. Essentially for 1 to be true, some form of Helaran bonding a spren through getting a weapon than killing said spren would have to be true since upon his death, Amaram was able to bond the sword. If Helaran was a KR with a live spren bonded, killing him would not have left a weapon behind. If Helaran instead stole an Honorblade, Mr. T could assume he would figure out how to surgebind, but maybe Helaran never realized its potential. Maybe he treated the Honorblade like a regular shardblade. Somewhat related, I do not think Helaran joined the Skybreakers. Maize told Shallan Why did your father join us? Why did your brother seek out the Skybreakers? I think it's important that he says Lin joined them but Helaran "seeked" the Skybreakers. I think Helaran was looking for answers about who his mom's friend was which led him to the Skybreakers. In his search, he could have found the Shen who some hypothesize are the original Skybreakers or their descendants. I think he tried to kill Amaram either on his own or for a group working against the Sons of Honor. Sorry if this has already been talked about. I can't figure out how to add the quotes (I'm on an iPad) 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvoraen Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 (edited) Regarding Mr. T telling Szeth, I was always under the impression that it was a lie he concocted for the sole purpose of preventing Szeth from questioning how someone -- Kaladin, in this case -- was Surgebinding that was not Szeth. "It is the only explanation." /jedihandwave Edited May 7, 2015 by dvoraen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Welcome! This is a very interesting perspective. Given that we know Mr. T was completely at sea about Shallan's abilities, assuming him to be correct about his explanations for his conclusion seems strange to me. What we know about Heleran is: the Ghostbloods claim that he sought the Skybreakers He wore Shardplate and had a Shardblade His arrival on the battlefield is mysterious, possibly arcane His Shardplate is not glowing with glyphs Kaladin bests him in a battle where Kaladin is a great disadvantage. He does not seem to be moving with enhanced speed. Long before Kaladin is aware of Syl's influence, he is working at super speed and there are apparent hints that he is magically affected. Szeth had an honorblade, glowed and was moving at superspeed. If Heleran was even as advanced as a surgebinder as Kaladin, I think it would have been apparent. If he had been given an Honorblade by someone who knew how to use it and been trained, it would likewise have been apparent. I guess this theory is not impossible. However, it doesn't seem to explain anything and raises more questions than it answers. Why would an Honorblade be missing when Mr. T was obviously lying? Why would Heleran have it? How did Heleran get it? Why was there no apparent manifestation of it being an Honorblade for either Amaram or Heleran? Please accept my apologies if this seems unduly harsh. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolverinehokie Posted May 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 I don't think Helaran knew he could surgebind, but even if could, he was wearing shardplate which interfers with surgebinding. I definitely do not think he was surgebinding when he fought Kaladin. I'm just trying to figure out why Mr. T thought Helaran could surgebind or could at least teach Shallan how to. @dvorean I know it was an on the spot lie, but what if it was based on a truth (a blade is missing)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelsier Kenobi Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Is the tip of a Spear through an eye slit enough to kill a Surgebinder instantly? Don't you pretty much have to decapitate a Knights Radiant to kill them? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 I don't think Helaran knew he could surgebind, but even if could, he was wearing shardplate which interfers with surgebinding. I definitely do not think he was surgebinding when he fought Kaladin. I'm just trying to figure out why Mr. T thought Helaran could surgebind or could at least teach Shallan how to. @dvorean I know it was an on the spot lie, but what if it was based on a truth (a blade is missing)? Kaladin didn't know he could surgebind either, but he still infused and went super fast. Szeth mentioned that the armor interfered with his bindings specifically, so it probably didn't affect infusion as that is an internal process. Heleran used his blade without Shardplate when confronting his father, so we know he wasn't always armored. When he confronted their father, there was no mention of his eyes changing color. After centuries, if not millenia of keeping the blades unknown, an Honorblade suddenly went missing just in time for Mr. T's lie? Possible, but more complicated than just having Mr. T lie about the blade being missing. Szeth, exiled from the Valley of Truth, is unlikely to find out anytime soon. This theory is possible, but it doesn't explain anything that I'm aware of, and it requires a number of unknown things in the backstory to fall a certain way. Now if there were textual hints about abilities that Amaram or Heleran had shown that they wouldn't have with an ordinary dead Sprenblade, that would really support this theory. Unfortunately, I am not aware of any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zas678 Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 My thought was that there really was a blade stolen, but it was stolen by Nalan, and that's the blade he used to heal Szeth. We know that Heralds don't have access to (normal) Surgebinding without their Honorblades, so I think it's plausible that Nalan stole one for purposes of his own and ended up using it on Szeth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsecaller3414 Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Is the tip of a Spear through an eye slit enough to kill a Surgebinder instantly? Don't you pretty much have to decapitate a Knights Radiant to kill them? Pretty much, you would have to behead them or ruin their brain in such a way that it is, I don't know, squished immediately? Anyway, the eye piercing might be able to work, as it likely punctured the brain. If not, then that proves that Helaran is not a Radiant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jondesu Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 Heleran used his blade without Shardplate when confronting his father, so we know he wasn't always armored. When he confronted their father, there was no mention of his eyes changing color. He's already a lighteyes (as were Shallan and her whole family). Why would his eyes have changed colors? jW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 My thought was that there really was a blade stolen, but it was stolen by Nalan, and that's the blade he used to heal Szeth. We know that Heralds don't have access to (normal) Surgebinding without their Honorblades, so I think it's plausible that Nalan stole one for purposes of his own and ended up using it on Szeth. I think he used a Regrowth fabrial. Dalinar sees one being used, and as Szeth wakes up he notes Nalan is putting away something that's glowing into a pocket and wonders if it's a fabrial. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlatLine Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 I think he used a Regrowth fabrial. Dalinar sees one being used, and as Szeth wakes up he notes Nalan is putting away something that's glowing into a pocket and wonders if it's a fabrial. That's what we are lead to believe, BS did change the wording though in the new version of WoR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 He's already a lighteyes (as were Shallan and her whole family). Why would his eyes have changed colors? jW The only Honorblade we know, Jezrien's, changed Szeth's eyes to sapphire. Sapphire is the color associated with Windrunners, the order associated with Jezrien. It is quite possible (though not proven) that Honorblades will also change the color of lighteyes eyes. If so, Heleran's eyes would have changed to the color associated with the order of the Herald associated with the Honorblade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.S.A.M.K.M Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 the ghost bloods know of the sky breakers, but the sons of honor do not. which factions know of other factions or dont realise they are a threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AerionBFII Posted May 14, 2015 Report Share Posted May 14, 2015 (edited) Mr.T isn't infallible, he could be wrong about Helaran even being able to Surgebind? I saw no sign of it from what i saw of him, maybe one day he could have gained the ability but currently he's unable to learn because of his ailment I.E. Death via Knife through the eye. If i recall correctly from Lifts POV the only 'awesome' member of the Skybreakers crew was Nin himself. I personally believe Nin is simply gathering fanatic wannabes and giving them the basic knowledge and tools. 10 Honor Blades; Taln still had his bound to him in damnation in the WOK prologue. A Herald also went back after the others had left to retrieve theirs. And Szeth had one currently in Kals possession. That leaves 7 with the Stone Shamans. .S.A.M.K.M, on 08 May 2015 - 06:22 AM, said: the ghost bloods know of the sky breakers, but the sons of honor do not. which factions know of other factions or dont realise they are a threat. It's so hard trying to navigate all of these teams and remember who knows what: Ghostbloods, Sons of Honor, Diagram team , The Envisigers and there is something going on with the church!!!! Edited May 14, 2015 by WEZ313 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsecaller3414 Posted May 14, 2015 Report Share Posted May 14, 2015 Well, as far as I can tell, Shallan's eye color didn't change to red or anything when she was surgebinding, so that probably means that eyes don't always change color in regards to the Radiants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted May 14, 2015 Report Share Posted May 14, 2015 Or maybe lighteyes need to say more oaths before their eyes change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AerionBFII Posted May 14, 2015 Report Share Posted May 14, 2015 (edited) Lightweavers only have like the first oath right? I think every Radiant group is different. Maybe if you already have Lighteyes you don't need your eyes to change. Edited May 14, 2015 by WEZ313 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsecaller3414 Posted May 14, 2015 Report Share Posted May 14, 2015 I think that theory would be more correct than eyes changing colors to merely a different shade of light. Kaladin's change from brown to light blue, but I actually don't recall seeing any change in, say, Jasnah or Renarin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrogKnight Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 tbh, i believe kaladin would not have been so disgusted by an honor blade as he was with the shard blade at the end of that battle. Though this does give me hope that helaran is still alive. considering that he may be a surge binder, not dificult to believe that he gave up his shard blade to a friend when he started hearing screams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsecaller3414 Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Though that makes me wonder about the whole red hair thing. Another redhead Veden, perhaps? If he is still alive, that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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