Astalsi = Nalthis??

[happyman]

That said, I am of the opinion that humans are native to the Mistborn world. It is specifically stated in the text that Ruin and Preservation joined together to create humans. It does not say they imported them, it states they created them.

When Ruin was talking to Vin, he also said that He and Preservation created humans after a pattern that they had seen elsewhere.

Also note that Honor claimed that he created the versions of humanity found on Roshar---and that these versions differ notable from both "baseline" humanity as we know it in real life, and humanity as it is depicted on the various other Shardworlds.

Combine this with the fact that humans apparently existed pre-shards (otherwise where did the bodies of Ati and Leras come from?) and it seems much more likely that we have cases of multiple creation based off something much older than any of the stories we are familiar with.

[hoser]

Humans on Roshar. I think there are surprises coming (this comment brought to you by a master of the obvious ) .

Honor seems to be associated with the Vorin peoples.

The Vorin peoples may have come from someplace else: the Tranquilline Halls. What kind of planet would you call a hall? Do the people live in underground tunnels? Is it a spacecraft? A hollowed-out asteroid? I don't think it is the spiritual realm. Clueless, I am.

Edit: I've got it. Honor's Vorin people are hobbits! In this alternate universe Sharkey/Saruman chases them out. So Odium=Saruman. /joking

The Makibaki (sp) origin story suggests that they are part native.

Some of the remaining peoples could easily be native. With their interesting physical characteristics, it is easy for me to imagine Cultivation helping or wholly creating the Dysian Aimians, the Parshmen and the Parshendi.

The Parshendi and Parshmen, who sing synchronized to a beat that the Alethi can't hear. The carapace of the Parshendi could be a highstorm adaptation. What if the Parsh peoples have something that functions like gemhearts, so their common rhythm is the rhythm of the Spiritual Realm and their connection gets renewed with every highstorm? If they were connected to the Spiritual Realm, it could help explain their reverence for the dead. It seems to me that they could be native to Roshar and particularly likely that Cultivation could be involved in their creation and/or evolution.

All baseless speculation, but it might be best not to treat all Rosharian peoples as having a common origin.

This comment is relevent to some of the discussion, but if people feel this posting is too far from the thread purpose, please let me know and accept my apologies.

Edited August 13, 2012 by hoser

[name_here]

I think there was some back and forth travel between Shardworlds. Notably, the rule about sacred grottos and not speaking the name of their god outside of them to keep his brother from hearing seems a lot like how information was hidden from Ruin. But the color focus of Astalsi seems likely to have been derived from BioChroma, so it seems likely those religions came from Scadrial and Nalthis respectively

[Aethling]

I like the Liar reference. Unfortunately, I do not hold with unpublished works. It might not be published at all, or it might be published in a different form than the original. Sanderson has admitted changing major ideas between thought and publishing. Vin was originally a guy and stuff like that. Until it is published, I do not hold it as canon.

I must have missed the part where Honor stated he created humans. Do you remember where that was?

The Parshendi are non-human by my interpretation. Their degree of difference is probably about the same as Ogier in WoT.

[Windrunner]

Here you go.

I am... I was... God. The one you call the Almighty, the creator of mankind.

[Aethling]

Hmm. That could also be said to mean that the belief is that he created mankind.

In the beginning of chapter 60 in Hero, Sazed states that Preservation gave part of his own soul to give humans sentience and honor. Why would he do that if all he had to do was bring humans from another world? Why make the deal with Ruin at all if humans already existed elsewhere?

I will admit that I am probably wrong, but until something else comes out in a published book, all the signs are pointing to humans originating on Scadrial. That explains the similiar religions on other planets. It explains the origin stories in Warbreaker and Way of Kings. Humans having a touch of Ruin and Preservation even explains their actions on other shardworlds.

Oddly, the humans on Scadrial are probably the least pure strain because of what Rashek did, that is if you exclude the alluded to people in the south.

[Chaos]

I will admit that I am probably wrong, but until something else comes out in a published book, all the signs are pointing to humans originating on Scadrial.

...No.

As was said earlier in the thread, Ruin and Preservation have seen humans elsewhere. Chapter 76:

I was surprised when Preservation said he wanted to create you, Ruin said, a bit of curiosity in his voice. Other life is ordered by way of nature. Balanced. But Preservation . . . he wanted to create something intentionally unbalanced. Something that could choose to preserve at times, but to ruin at others. Something in the form of that which we'd seen before. It was intriguing.

I find it odd that he expended so much of himself to create you. Why would he weaken himself, eventually giving me the strength to destroy the world, simply to place human beings on his world? I know that others call his death to imprison me a sacrifice, but that wasn't the sacrifice. His sacrifice came much earlier.

This is what the annotations say on that same subject:

There's one other cool item to note in this chapter. If you read Ruin's words carefully, he admits that he has indeed seen human life somewhere before. This means that there is life on other planets in this cosmology, and that Ruin and (presumably) Preservation have experience with those other planets.

Another building block for the larger story.

So, it's absolutely confirmed that human life existed prior to Ruin and Preservation's creation of mankind on Scadrial. Other planets definitely had life first.

So while you maybe have a point why Preservation didn't take humans from another place--which I don't have an answer to--humans totally existed elsewhere.

[happyman]

So, it's absolutely confirmed that human life existed prior to Ruin and Preservation's creation of mankind on Scadrial. Other planets definitely had life first.

So while you maybe have a point why Preservation didn't take humans from another place--which I don't have an answer to--humans totally existed elsewhere.

We hardly need this. When Ati and Leras die, their corpses fall our of nowhere. Human corpses. Detailed human corpses. Surely that is enough?

[Teegs]

We hardly need this. When Ati and Leras die, their corpses fall our of nowhere. Human corpses. Detailed human corpses. Surely that is enough?

I always figured that just because they looked human it doesn't mean they WERE human. They were gods, they could probably be whatever they wanted.

Not to mention the humans on Roshar are known for having distinctive hair and eye color, where as the humans on Scadrial appear in a more familiar form to what we see. There's nothing to indicate that "humans" from any of the planets in the cosmere are biologically the same. They may be similar in appearance, but how much of that DNA is actually shared between them?

It's obvious that people don't have to be strictly human to have human like traits or consciousness. Kandra and the Shin are evidence of that. I wonder if the word "mankind" is a relative term. For instance if Vin landed on Roshar one day, she'd still be an "alien" because she came from a different world. Mankind to her is different from mankind on Roshar, even if they do have a number of similarities.

Edited August 15, 2012 by Teegs

[happyman]

I always figured that just because they looked human it doesn't mean they WERE human. They were gods, they could probably be whatever they wanted.

Not to mention the humans on Roshar are known for having distinctive hair and eye color, where as the humans on Scadrial appear in a more familiar form to what we see. There's nothing to indicate that "humans" from any of the planets in the cosmere are biologically the same. They may be similar in appearance, but how much of that DNA is actually shared between them?

It's obvious that people don't have to be strictly human to have human like traits or consciousness. Kandra and the Shin are evidence of that. I wonder if the word "mankind" is a relative term. For instance if Vin landed on Roshar one day, she'd still be an "alien" because she came from a different world. Mankind to her is different from mankind on Roshar, even if they do have a number of similarities.

Given the forms their bodies took, I doubt they had control over that, or cared. They were dead, after all. Vin's body came back the same as it had been before she took the power, and I doubt the Shardholders (Ati and Leras) would have bothered to change their default forms, even if it were possible for them to so. Given that we know they hadn't held the power forever, and had been something before taking it, human-shaped would be the best bet for their previous shape, especially given Ati's statement that they had seen that form before.

Your other points are correct, of course. If the humans on the different planets were created in different "creations" by different shards, whether they are the same species on different planets is a very good question, and as-yet completely unanswered. However, even with the variety, we recognize most of the species on most planets on a variation of the theme "human." The question is, are they actually related to each other or are they independent creations? You could make an excellent case that the humans on Scandrial are an independent creations. The humans on Roshar might well be as well, although I doubt they were originally native to Roshar. Sel is a complete mystery.

[Teegs]

I just had a thought about our world here, and how man was created in the image of god according to the Christian religion. Now I'm not overly religious but I do think something is to be said about god(s) creating beings in their image. If the shards were to create sentient life, my guess it would be in their own image. Since the shard bearers appeared "human", mankind, from any planet would likely follow that pattern.

Funny though because we say that the shard bearers looked human- as if we created the gods. Wouldn't it be that humans looked like their gods? Humans looked divine?

[happyman]

I just had a thought about our world here, and how man was created in the image of god according to the Christian religion. Now I'm not overly religious but I do think something is to be said about god(s) creating beings in their image. If the shards were to create sentient life, my guess it would be in their own image. Since the shard bearers appeared "human", mankind, from any planet would likely follow that pattern.

This is probably a large part of their motivation, no doubt about it. Also, we know Shardholders are neither omnipotent or omniscient, especially when they are new to the power. Following a previously successful pattern is probably much easier at first, especially if you have specimens to examine. However, there is plenty of evidence they don't have to follow that pattern. The Kandra are a good example, although their relationship to humanity is apparently very real, at least psychologically. The Aimans and Parshmen are even better examples.

Funny though because we say that the shard bearers looked human- as if we created the gods. Wouldn't it be that humans looked like their gods? Humans looked divine?

Given that we don't know the history of the Cosmere or Shattering, this is a bit of a chicken/egg problem at the moment. Hoid and the Shardbearers are apparently human-shaped and predate the Shattering, but what that means for what you might call "original creation" is uncertain.

[ReaderAt2046]

I just had a thought about our world here, and how man was created in the image of god according to the Christian religion. Now I'm not overly religious but I do think something is to be said about god(s) creating beings in their image. If the shards were to create sentient life, my guess it would be in their own image. Since the shard bearers appeared "human", mankind, from any planet would likely follow that pattern.

Funny though because we say that the shard bearers looked human- as if we created the gods. Wouldn't it be that humans looked like their gods? Humans looked divine?

A human did create the gods. Brandon created Adonalsium, and the original humans. At some time and for some reason Adonalsium shattered into the Shards. 16 humans took up the Shards and became divine.

[Windrunner]

Well, he wrote the books, Reader. But that doesn't make him the canonical creator of the universe. I really doubt that he's set himself up as god of the cosmere. And he's never said anything to indicate that, within the story, he is the creator of anything or even a hint that he exists at all within the books. So where are you getting this from? Have you seen something in the books or interviews that I've missed?

[Pechvarry]

...No.

As was said earlier in the thread, Ruin and Preservation have seen humans elsewhere.

This does not void Aethling's opinion. Certainly, Scadrial wasn't home to the first humans ever, but Adonalsium's shattering could've been an extremely hairy deal. For all we know, those who didn't have a shard died or ceased to exist or who knows what happens with a magical big bang? Perhaps Humanity v1.0 is extinct, but for those still holding shards. If this were the case, it would make sense that Preservation would attempt to preserve the species, thus risking his own eventual defeat to follow his nature and preserve humanity (in form, at least).

The early days after the Shattering certainly hold a lot of mysteries. Perhaps the other shards were closer, back then, and began finding reasons to induct scadrians into their own realms. Perhaps the sDNA of those first humans were extremely strong, given the divine spark in them, and world-hopping became common, Seventeenth Shard was formed, etc.