Chaos

Clues in signed things

42 posts in this topic

I'm sorry, but I cannot emphasize enough of a "What are you talking about?" here.

Intent does not shape their power, only how they will use it. Vin takes up Preservation and uses it to destroy Ati because she has not been influenced enough by the Intent of Preservation to be prevented from doing so. She even theorizes that this was Leras' plan all along.

When I say it shapes their power I mean it shapes how effectivly they can use their power for a purpose. Honor cannot see as far into the future as Cultivation for example. These aren't massive limitations. I agree it also affects how they can use it.

If they were all-powerful, there could be no conflict involving a Shard.

http://www.brandonsanderson.com/annotation/306/Mistborn-3-Chapter-Forty

And in a way, that's what they're trying—searching out some mythical answer that may or may not be there. However, my goal with this book was to show that when faced with something as powerful and incomprehensible as Ruin, there isn't much that common people—even Allomancers—can do. They're fighting their best, but how do you even start to deal with something like Ruin?

It is very much Brandon's intention that people have no chance of victory when facing a shard alone. They're powerful enough that only another shard can stop them. Brandon still made lots of conflict though. Ruin goaded on the conflict having no fear about what would happen.

They are not all-powerful. Extremely powerful, yes. Omnipotent? Emphatically not!

They are very much like Norse mythology, or even Greek mythology, which is also very similar. The Norse deities were powerful, but they were not omnipotent--very specifically not omnipotent. Shards are likely more powerful than they were, but they are still similar in their limitations.

One of Brandon's tenets in writing (at least as I understand it) is that limitations is what makes things interesting.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuperWeight

I'd probably classify Thor as a super weight 3 and a shard as a World Weight 5. Thor is an immensely powerful and tough being with some degree of control over the weather, a shard is a reality warper on a planatary scale who can only be stopped by another shard and can do pretty much anything on a planet scale. Would you disagree with that classification?

The humans have most of the limitations, not the shards.

Back on topic, the main Shard limitations, from Mistborn, are them not understanding certain emotions well. Ruin doesn't understand love well, or self sacrifice. The hidden shard probably has a very personal and emotional reason for their actions too.

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I'm going to try to avoid treading on anyone's religious sensibilities too much, because I don't want to offend unduly (I'll save offense for where I think it's deserved, or hilarious ;) ) but I have an issue with Odium being a smaller part of a divine manifestation.

Why? Because your definition of how it would fit into the whole is too arbitrarily limiting. You say it could be a hatred of sin. How are you defining sin? Sin differs from culture to culture, and across time - it is in itself a very human notion, not a divine one. Morality has a basis in evolution (acting immorally tends to be bad for propagation of genetics), but specific sins vary massively.

It's sinful for a Jew to eat pork, or a Muslim to eat beef. It USED to be sinful for a Catholic to eat meat on Friday (it's not any longer). Whose definition of sin do you use? We know there are multiple religions in the Cosmere. Is Brandon one day going to reveal to us which is 'correct'? I don't buy that.

As an option for this unknown shard, may I perhaps suggest Prudence? Can't see that one having much mileage, but I want to put it out there.

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A sin is a transgression of divine will. Odium is divine, so anything he wills as wrong is a sin. According to him at least. The human in him can hate whatever he so choses.

It's fairly clear what Brandon views as right and wrong but I doubt whatever Odium views as sinful will be that.

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It is very much Brandon's intention that people have no chance of victory when facing a shard alone. They're powerful enough that only another shard can stop them. Brandon still made lots of conflict though. Ruin goaded on the conflict having no fear about what would happen.

Like I said... they are very powerful. But the difference between "so powerful you cannot imagine the scope" and "omnipotent" or "all-powerful" is the same as the difference between Graham's Number and infinity.

I'd probably classify Thor as a super weight 3 and a shard as a World Weight 5. Thor is an immensely powerful and tough being with some degree of control over the weather, a shard is a reality warper on a planatary scale who can only be stopped by another shard and can do pretty much anything on a planet scale. Would you disagree with that classification?

The humans have most of the limitations, not the shards.

Would I disagree? No, but here, you're not claiming omnipotence.

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How about something along the lines of Flight as in fight or flight. I know Flight doesn't sound "shard" like. But flight definitely fits the "hide and survive" intent. Plus, you get the added bonus of a paired shard in Fight. It's a very instinctual intent that all animals have. Just an idea.

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The only things I can come up with are only fulfilling half of the 'Hide and Survive' and I keep wondering whether survival can really be that much of a part of it. All the Shards want to survive, there might be a few that would sacrifice themselves but I doubt Ruin ever would have.

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The only things I can come up with are only fulfilling half of the 'Hide and Survive' and I keep wondering whether survival can really be that much of a part of it. All the Shards want to survive, there might be a few that would sacrifice themselves but I doubt Ruin ever would have.

All the shards want to survive, but this one wants JUST to hide and survive - which makes it seem as though this would be it's intent. I do see what you're saying though.

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I love how sneaky Brandon's 2-part message is.

The Intent makes me think of the Furtive Pygmy from the Dark Souls game. If you know about it, some of the Lord soul stuff is actually quite similar to Shards.

Furtive:

Attempting to avoid notice or attention, typically because of guilt or a belief that discovery would lead to trouble; secretive.

Suggestive of guilty nervousness.

Synonyms

stealthy - secret - surreptitious - privy - hidden

"Furtive" definitely fulfills the hiding part of the Intent, and possibly the desire to survive. Its not a perfect match, but it might get people thinking. Anyway, Furtiveness is a poor name for a Shard.

I think that hiding is only a secondary part of the Intent in that (at least at the moment) hiding is necessary for survival (as the primary part of the Intent)

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Perhaps Caution? Keep coming up with similar Synonyms, can't get my brain off this track

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I'm surprised this came in so fast. Just got it today but I only ordered it around two weeks ago.

I asked for "any tidbit of info about the Southern Scadralians" and while it's vague, I'm sure it'll lead to much speculation:

GKRZZ.jpg

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Hmm. Brandon did say that future technology would mix magic and science. Perhaps they have some way of enhancing their technology with magic? Or vice versa, since their technology is very different from the north which uses mostly technology and enhances it with magic. Perhaps a way to make a feruchemist strong enough to draw a lot of the overly hot sun's energy away with brass.

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Hmm. Brandon did say that future technology would mix magic and science. Perhaps they have some way of enhancing their technology with magic? Or vice versa, since their technology is very different from the north which uses mostly technology and enhances it with magic. Perhaps a way to make a feruchemist strong enough to draw a lot of the overly hot sun's energy away with brass.

They lack any real amount of Allomancy, at the very least, and it was my impression that Terris was the only place to get Feruchemy.

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They lack any real amount of Allomancy, at the very least, and it was my impression that Terris was the only place to get Feruchemy.

And since they were created by Ruin and Preservation, they have the seeds of the Three Metallic Arts in them—though without anyone among them having burned Lerasium, Allomancers would have been very rare in their population and full Mistborn unheard of.

They have the seeds of all three arts, which includes feruchemy. So it is implied that they have the potential to get feruchemy.

Off topic, but I know the Terris people had two pools of god in their mountain, Ruin's pool and Preservation's pool of magic. I wonder if that was why they had their powers.

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Yes, I know that they have the potential (I was the one who found the quote, after all), but it's probably not present or barely present to the degree if pre-ascension Allomancy. So their technology/society is very unlikely to be built upon exceptionally rare magic.

That's an interesting thought on the shardpools.

Edited by Kurkistan
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Yes,I know that they have the potential (I was the one who found the quote, after all), but it's probably not present or barely present to the degree if pre-ascension Allomancy. So their technology/society is very unlikely to be built upon exceptionally rare magic.

That's an interesting though on the shardpools.

We'll see. I do think his choice of words is noteworthy. He says that allomancy is rare but says nothing about feruchemy.

It wouldn't be that surprising if feruchemists were common. He may have wanted to preserve some of his people from being made into mistwraiths.

Edit. And thanks.

Edited by Nepene
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Maybe the different tech in the South has nothing to do with magic? What if Brandon means they have developed solar/heat based technology? Since Allow of Law is heading in the path of present-day technology, maybe the concepts of sustainability, reuseablility and efficiency are unknown to the people of Elendel.

I think this makes sense - can somebody confirm for me, I think the Southern continent is meant to be quite hot as a result of HoA, right?

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Fabrials rely on spren and stormlight to function. Spren are all some combination of Honor and Cultivation and stormlight seems to power just about everything, so I doubt you can say that fabrials are simply of Cultivation and then just ignore the possibility of other Cultivation-aspected magics.

 

Probably the best way to think of Spren (and therefore fabrials, and Knights Radiant) is in an analogy. Spren etc... are an intersection of Cultivation's and Honour's power, with the Heralds' magic being Honour's own magic system, so if we were in mistborn, Spren etc... would be equivalent to Feruchemy, with the Heralds being like Allomancy, and possibly the old magic being like Hemalurgy. (Of course, with three shards interacting on Roshar, it's entirely possible that in addition to voidbinding, there are magics that are intersections between Odium and Honour, and between Cultivation and Odium, and at the intersection of all three)

 

edit: wow I missed the extra pages, lol.

Edited by Ari
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