random speculation The Expanse of the Densities corresponds to Ashyn

[WeiryWriter]

So at this point we are all pretty aware of the map of Shadesmar found in the endpages of The Way of Kings:



As we can see it is bordered by four "expanses": the Expanse of the Densities, the Expanse of the Broken Sky, the Expanse of the Vapors, and the Expanse of Vibrance (the name of which does not appear on the map because it is beneath the "Shadesmar" label).

We also know that these expanses correspond to different Shardworlds, if one were to walk in the direction of the Expanse of the Vapors for example they would eventually reach Scadrial. We've also long known that the Expanse of the Densities corresponds to "a world [we] know".

The conventional thought on this was that Brandon is referring to one of the currently published worlds, Sel, Scadrial, Nalthis, or Roshar. Roshar was obviously out as Shadesmar itself is its analogue. As we know know Scadrial is also out. Another common consensus is that the Expanse of Vibrance corresponds to Nalthis (what with its focus on "vibrant" color and sound "vibrations"). Which would just leave Sel, right? Well not necessarily.

My current Random Speculation du jour is that it instead corresponds to Ashyn, the setting of The Silence Divine and one of the other two inhabited planets in Roshar's system (the other being Braize of course).

"But wait," you might say, "didn't Brandon say it was a world we knew? We haven't seen Ashyn yet!"

Well, yes you are correct. However I'm going to cry technicality. Brandon said that it was a world we know, but he did not say it is a world we've seen. And at that point in time we did "know" a little about Ashyn (specifically that it had a disease-based magic system, it was the setting of The Silence Divine, and that it was in the same system as Roshar). Could I be wrong on this? Definitely, but for now it's enough for me to continue in this line of thought.

So what exactly is my thought process here?

Well in reality it is a synthesis of two things. One, Ashyn, as a planet, is mostly barren with a few fertile patches. And two, distance in the Cognitive Realm reflects the amount of "thought" going on in the Physical (which does not necessarily have to be sentient thought). I believe that this would result in a region of the Cognitive Realm that is mostly empty with localized "dense" spots (corresponding to the fertile bits).  In mind it makes a sort of poetic sense to call it the Expanse of "the Densities".

It also fits with my personal belief that two of the Expanses should correspond to Ashyn and Braize, since they are Physically close to Roshar and have been an influence on it in the past.

Granted that could mean Ashyn corresponds to the Expanse of the Broken Sky. I could see that working, as we learn in the reading from The Silence Divine that Brandon did a while back that (putting this in a spoiler tag for people who don't like reading stuff like this):

at least some people live in floating cities and that they look up at the volcanic surface and sun and stars are below them. Which would count as a "Broken Sky" but I came up with the Densities idea first and it seems cooler to me so...

[Argent]

Maybe. Maybe not. I don't like discussing speculations much because, well, they are speculations. 

 

I will, however, disagree with your choice of a tag. Considering how rarely they are used, and how obvious they are in the list topics, I would highly prefer a more general tag (e.g. [speculation] instead of [Random Speculation]). But this is discussion for a different place and time.

[WeiryWriter]

I will, however, disagree with your choice of a tag. Considering how rarely they are used, and how obvious they are in the list topics, I would highly prefer a more general tag (e.g. [speculation] instead of [Random Speculation]). But this is discussion for a different place and time.

 

Well calling things like this "Random Speculations" is kind of a thing for me now...

[IAmTheBeard]

It also fits with my personal belief that two of the Expanses should correspond to Ashyn and Braize, since they are Physically close to Roshar and have been an influence on it in the past.

 

So you're saying that the four Expanses we know break down as follows:

    Vapors = Scadrial

    Vibrance = Nalthis

    Densities = Ashyn

    Broken Sky = Braize

Is that right?

 

It does make sense for both Ashyn and Braize to be connected to Roshar since they're quite close. However, don't we know that Ashyn isn't a full shardworld? It's a minor shardworld, right? That could mean it has less of a presence in the Cognitive Realm, or at least that its equivalent of Shadesmar isn't inhabited by intelligent beings. Though, given what we know about Threnody, that isn't necessarily a foregone conclusion. I'm just saying that we don't really know how minor shardworlds fit into things.

 

I do like this theory in general. I have long been wondering whether the eventual map of the Cosmere will be a cluster graph of the Cognitive Realm, which this idea would support.

[Haradion Drogon]

Wierd. 

I would hacve thought "Densities" would be Sacrial - since its connections to metals... But I suppose "Vapor" could refer to the mists? Perhapes "Vapors" is the Roshar Translation of "Mists"?

So literally:

World of Mists --> Scadrial

World of Colours --> Nalthis

-----

World of the Broken (Sky and storm being important in Roshar Culture?) That fits with odium being called "The Broken One" although that might not refer to him.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Haradion Drogon

[Arook]

So you're saying that the four Expanses we know break down as follows:

    Vapors = Scadrial

    Vibrance = Nalthis

    Densities = Ashyn

    Broken Sky = Braize

Is that right?

 

It does make sense for both Ashyn and Braize to be connected to Roshar since they're quite close. However, don't we know that Ashyn isn't a full shardworld? It's a minor shardworld, right? That could mean it has less of a presence in the Cognitive Realm, or at least that its equivalent of Shadesmar isn't inhabited by intelligent beings. Though, given what we know about Threnody, that isn't necessarily a foregone conclusion. I'm just saying that we don't really know how minor shardworlds fit into things.

 

I do like this theory in general. I have long been wondering whether the eventual map of the Cosmere will be a cluster graph of the Cognitive Realm, which this idea would support.

 

So as i understand the cognitive realm everything regardless of shardic influence appears in there. A stick will always be represented in the cognitive realms no matter where it is or where it came from. However things like spren may not exist depending on the world and shard. However it is entirely possible that as long as intelligent life exists on a world that intelligent entities may appear in the cognitive realm near them even without shards being around. 

 

As for Broken sky = Braize + Ashyn, I'm not so sure but that is because they are referred to as an expanse which leads me to believe that it is talking about a star system not other planets in the system. 

 

As I think about this does anyone know what the makeup of the space between worlds is or have any solid facts on movement between worlds. Also any ideas what the nexuses do/are?

[WeiryWriter]

So you're saying that the four Expanses we know break down as follows:

    Vapors = Scadrial

    Vibrance = Nalthis

    Densities = Ashyn

    Broken Sky = Braize

Is that right?

That is correct. Though the Braize equivalency is more from process of elimination than any actual reasoning.

 

It does make sense for both Ashyn and Braize to be connected to Roshar since they're quite close. However, don't we know that Ashyn isn't a full shardworld? It's a minor shardworld, right? That could mean it has less of a presence in the Cognitive Realm, or at least that its equivalent of Shadesmar isn't inhabited by intelligent beings. Though, given what we know about Threnody, that isn't necessarily a foregone conclusion. I'm just saying that we don't really know how minor shardworlds fit into things.

We do know that Ahsyn does not "currently" have a Shard (whether it ever had one has been RAFO'd), and from what we understand of the magic system it sounds like the magic matches the description of minor shardworlds. However Brandon has given zero indication of this having the sort of effect on the Cognitive Realm as you describe here. The Cognitive Realm is simply another way of viewing reality in the cosmere. Everything has a Cognitive aspect, and that is what forms the basis of the Cognitive Realm, not whether there are Shards present.

 

I do like this theory in general. I have long been wondering whether the eventual map of the Cosmere will be a cluster graph of the Cognitive Realm, which this idea would support.

 

Thanks! As for the map, I guess that's a possibility. Though I'd point out that we will be getting two maps, a star chart (for the Physical Realm) and a map of the Cognitive Realm.

 

Weird. 

I would have thought "Densities" would be Scadrial - since its connections to metals... But I suppose "Vapor" could refer to the mists? Perhaps "Vapors" is the Roshar Translation of "Mists"?

So literally:

World of Mists --> Scadrial

World of Colours --> Nalthis

Well you weren't alone in that thought. Scadrial was probably the leading guess for the "Densities" up until Brandon revealed it was actually "Vapors". I don't know if I would go so far as to say "Vapors" is a translation of "mists" but it's definitely a reference to them.

 

World of the Broken (Sky and storm being important in Roshar Culture?) That fits with odium being called "The Broken One" although that might not refer to him.

Eh, at this point I don't think we know enough about Braize to say why its Expanse would be "of the Broken Sky".

 

So as i understand the cognitive realm everything regardless of shardic influence appears in there. A stick will always be represented in the cognitive realms no matter where it is or where it came from. However things like spren may not exist depending on the world and shard. However it is entirely possible that as long as intelligent life exists on a world that intelligent entities may appear in the cognitive realm near them even without shards being around.

This is my understanding of things as well. The existence of things like spren has more to do with the world itself (after all worlds have an impact on the magic in the same way that the Shards do). Spren could even exist on a "minor" shardworld, though not sentient ones like Syl.

 

As for Broken sky = Braize + Ashyn, I'm not so sure but that is because they are referred to as an expanse which leads me to believe that it is talking about a star system not other planets in the system.

I'm confused by the first sentence of this as I don't think anyone is saying that the Expanse of the Broken Sky is both Braize and Ashyn? As for the rest the impression I've got from the WoBs is that an Expanse equals a Shardworld, not a star system. That said I could potentially see an argument that the "Expanse" actually refers to the space between the world analogues (i.e. the Expanse of the Vapors lies between Shadesmar and the analogue of Scadrial) since Brandon does say that it would take weeks or months of walking to get to Scadrial from Shadesmar.

 

As I think about this does anyone know what the makeup of the space between worlds is or have any solid facts on movement between worlds. Also any ideas what the nexuses do/are?

Well in the Physical Realm the cosmere is structurally the same as our own universe, so interstellar space is mostly empty space. What that translates to in the Cognitive is not exactly clear (though we do know it contracts a great deal, due to the whole expanding/shrinking nature of the Cognitive) but Brandon does refer to walking across the Expanse, so there has to be some sort of solid ground. As for the Nexuses, I haven't the slightest idea.

[ParadoxicalZen]

Interesting WoB I found whilst trawling Theoryland

Interview: Dec 8th, 2012

Clues in signed things (Verbatim)

Chaos ()

In Emperor's Soul, I asked: "Is the reason why it is hard to get to Shadesmar on Sel because Devotion and Dominion being Splintered?"

Brandon Sanderson ()

That is part of it (a little). Then, hidden later in the book: "Has to do with the name of that expanse."

 

 

Emphasis mine. Perhaps given Dev/Dom's splintering, Expanse of the Broken Sky could be Sel? Bit of a leap, but given the somewhat inverse nature of Shadesmar, the Broken Sky being parallel to the Chasm

Edited July 20, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[Darkness]

Interesting WoB I found whilst trawling Theoryland

 

Emphasis mine. Perhaps given Dev/Dom's splintering, Expanse of the Broken Sky could be Sel? Bit of a leap, but given the somewhat inverse nature of Shadesmar, the Broken Sky being parallel to the Chasm

To me that would imply that Shadesmar (Roshar's cognitive 'expanse') and Sel's cognitive expanse are not adjacent, and that's why it's hard to get to Shadesmar from Sel. However, reading more closely, your quote said "get to Shadesmar on Sel"... which should be nigh impossible, because Shadesmar is Roshar's cognitive expanse.

Quick question, anyone have thoughts on the "Nexuses"? What do they correlate to?

[ParadoxicalZen]

To me that would imply that Shadesmar (Roshar's cognitive 'expanse') and Sel's cognitive expanse are not adjacent, and that's why it's hard to get to Shadesmar from Sel. However, reading more closely, your quote said "get to Shadesmar on Sel"... which should be nigh impossible, because Shadesmar is Roshar's cognitive expanse.

Quick question, anyone have thoughts on the "Nexuses"? What do they correlate to?

 

Well, Shadesmar is technically the Rosharan Term for the Cognitive Realm as a whole, and not just the Rosharan expanse, which makes me wonder, would Roshar have its own Expanse name from any of the other Cogntive world points?

 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Oct 5th, 2013

Steelheart Signing Report - Argent (Paraphrased)

QUESTION

Do the Spiritual and Physical Realms have names, like Shadesmar is the Cognitive Realm?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Kind of, but not really. Shadesmar is just a rough translation of "Cognitive Realm" in the language of whoever first found out about it. Other people, planets, and worlds wouldn't call it Shadesmar, they would call it whatever their words for "Cognitive Realm" are. This applies to the Physical and Spiritual as well.

TAGS

 

I'm not quite sure on what the Nexus'(Nexi?) are. When you compare the Shadesmar map to Roshar's map, Nexus of Truth matches up with The Endless Ocean, the Nexus of Transition matches up with the Reshi Isles and the Nexus of Imagination with the Southern Depths so it is interesting.

 

As for the naming the expanses, this is how i think it is;

 

Vibrance - Nalthis

Broken Sky - Leaning to Sel, but maybe Braize

Vapors - Scadrial obvs

Densities -

possibly Taldain

or even Threnody, given the abundance of silver

Edited July 25, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[Necarion]

Quote

Broken Sky - Leaning to Sel, but maybe Braize

Broken Sky seems like it points to Sel for a couple reasons: Brandon has noted that the cognitive realm over Sel is a never-ending storm of investiture due to Odium's splintering of Dominion and Devotion and (AU Spoiler):

Spoiler

Khriss notes that this splintering is why the magics on Sel are more highly regionalized than other magic systems.

 

[PallonianFire]

I'll be absolutely floored if Broken Sky isn't Taldain. The sky there is literally split in two.

[Sam Script]

If We just consider the name and qualities of the planet, the Expanses should be:

Vapors: Scadrial

Vibrance: Nalthis

BrokenSky: Sel, Braize possibly as well

Densities: no idea, but I prefer to Ashyn

However, if we take the physical locations into consideration, it might be:

Vapors: Scadrial

Vibrance: unknown

BrokenSky: Braize, for the same system

Densities: Ashyn

Scadrial is because that it's the most near planet to Roshar according to the AU star map. And I cannot find any suitable candidates for E.Vibrance. I would keep being skeptical for the theory "Vibrance=Nalthis". I doubt that "it would be way too easy for we Sharders" lol

[PallonianFire]

19 minutes ago, Sam Script said:

BrokenSky: Sel, Braize possibly as well

Taldain. I'm telling you, Broken Sky is Taldain.

[Runyan Firetree]

Would there be any benefit to trying to match the Roshar Shadesmar map with the new AU star chart?  If we align Expanse of Vapors with Scadrial on the AU star chart, then work our way clockwise through the planets with close proximity to Roshar the next planet we come to is Nalthis which aligns with the next Expanse on the Roshar map (Vibrance).  Going counterclockwise from Scadrial/Vapors, we would get Broken Sky paired with Taldain which also seems to fit for reasons others have already stated.  Leaving us with Expanse of Densities to be paired with either Braize, Ashyn, or Sel.  For this, I think Braize & Ashyn can fit for expanse of densities as WW described earlier:

On 4/21/2015 at 2:35 PM, Ookla the Indefinite said:

Well in reality it is a synthesis of two things. One, Ashyn, as a planet, is mostly barren with a few fertile patches. And two, distance in the Cognitive Realm reflects the amount of "thought" going on in the Physical (which does not necessarily have to be sentient thought). I believe that this would result in a region of the Cognitive Realm that is mostly empty with localized "dense" spots (corresponding to the fertile bits).  In mind it makes a sort of poetic sense to call it the Expanse of "the Densities".

This would leave Sel as the odd one out.  One possibility is that it is one of the Densities in the Expanse of Densities, but I think it's more likely not to be represented on the Shadesmar map.  Perhaps as a result of the issues caused by the splittering, but it could be due to Sel's close proximity to Nalthis. You may have to travel through vibrance/nalthis to get to Sel's CR from Roshar-Shadesmar, similar to how Massachusetts is near Maine but you have to travel 20miles through New Hampshire to get there.

 

 

Edited November 30, 2016 by runyan_ft
removed oversized image

[Sam Script]

1 hour ago, PallonianFire said:

Taldain. I'm telling you, Broken Sky is Taldain.

Persuade me plz. Why is that?

***

Okay sorry for not seeing your speculation first, but I don't really think that Physical "sky" would be related to Cognitive Realm something. However I like your idea

Edited November 30, 2016 by Sam Script

[PallonianFire]

The sky is literally broken in two. Dayside and Darkside. The Cognitive Realm appearance of a planet is tied to how the inhabitants perceive the planet, and if half of Taldain views it as dark and half views it as light...well, broken sky.

[Amanuensis]

I agree with Broken Sky being Taldain. It matches my theory that Autonomy invested that world's atmosphere, rather than the stars, and helps explain the faces we see in the clouds so often.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Amanuensis

[Blightsong]

No one has mentioned that the expanse of Densities is Sel? This has been my theory for awhile. Its Cognitive realm is evidently filled with Investiture so the name makes sense in my mind, especially with AU's talk of the investiture their being packed and bursting to escape.

[Amanuensis]

Sel also makes sense, given this quote from its essay:

Spoiler

The planet itself fasciliates this, as it is larger than most, with its size around 1.5 cosmere standard, and gravity at 1.2 cosmere standard.

Now I'm no expert on physics, but I'm pretty sure this is the highest gravity on a planet we've seen so far, and I'm relatively certain that the greater gravity is on a planet, the more dense its natural materials are. On top of what Blightsong just brought up (about Sel's investiture being condensed in the Cognitive Realm), it makes quite a lot of sense.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Amanuensis

[Pagerunner]

I'm hesitant to try to speculate on what the Shadesmar looks like on other planets. We've seen two subastrals: Scadrian and Rosharan. The Scadrian subastral seems to make sense in hindsight, that the Shards can manifest their power directly as a mist. But can't all Shards do that? Isn't Stormlight very similar, gaseous Investiture imparted through a weather phenomenon? So why is that so unique to the Scadrial? For Roshar, can we make any connection between how the subastral looks, and anything on the physical realm? It seems to me that the logic being used for other planets don't hold true for the planets we've seen (like, if it was tied to the focus, Shadesmar would look very metallic). Furthermore, the very term "subastral," meaning "below a star," makes it sound like everything below the same star (i.e. in the same solar system) should be part of the same 'expanse.'

I agree that the neighboring worlds of Braize and Ashyn should be on there, especially if worlds like Scadrial (which is the only one explicitly confirmed by WoB, unless I've missed something) appear. The IRE had to take horses when they went between subastrals (they were on the very edge of their own, and only made it to the edge of Scadrial's), so since the Rosharan worlds are proportionally so much closer, they should be there, too, shouldn't they? But which direction? Since they occupy the same system in the Physical Realm, maybe there's a third dimension to Shadesmar? (Or, like, a fourth dimension. Depends on how you count them.) Maybe Braize is literally below Roshar, and Ashyn is the literal Tranquiline halls above? The Everstorm, allowing travel between Roshar and Braize, punches a hole 'down' through Shadesmar, and the Highstorm punches a hole 'upwards' to Ashyn, where the Stormfather is? (Maybe Honor was Splintered on Ashyn, and that was the catastrophe that happened to that planet? In the Threnodite essay, we learned that a battle between Shards near a system damaged at least one planet in that system; maybe a similar thing happened to one of the Rosharan planets?)

I'm kind of spinning my wheels, but my point is this: we have a lot to learn about Shadesmar. Maybe I'm a little behind, since I haven't read WoR pretty much since it came out, but Secret History didn't seem to answer many of my questions, and in fact raised even more. But as we speculate (and I absolutely encourage rampant speculation), let's be aware that the connections we're making between worlds is tenuous, and tied to semantics. I thought about this a lot when we first learned that the Expanses were Shardworlds, and I could make a case in my mind for all three expanses to be Scadrial (especially since Brandon uses the phrase 'broken sky' repeatedly in Mistborn to describe the falling ash). So, recognizing that semantics is extremely vulnerable to confirmation bias (seeing what you want to see), I'm gonna wait to learn more about how the Cognitive Realm works. Hopefully in Oathbringer.

Oh, and lastly, the constellation chart is a 2-dimensional projection of a night sky. If all the stars are roughly situated in the same plane (unlikely, but unless the universe is randomly generated, the probability doesn't mean anything; the constellations could be viewed from a place above the dwarf galaxy's plane, if it has one), then you could easily map Shadesmar to all of them. If they're farther apart, then the 3D arrangement of them can cause complications. Let's say, in the example, that the POV is close to Roshar, but far from Scadrial and Nalthis. Just because those latter two planets are close on the map, they might be much farther away than they initially look ('cause they'd be really far in the page, and it'd be like looking at two mountains behind to the flagpole in your front yard).

Don't want to rain on anyone's parades, or anything. By all means, keep going - it's fun to read. But I think there are some major gaps in our understanding (like when Brandon said a while back we don't even know what Investiture is!), which we need to keep in mind as we extrapolate.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Pagerunner

[BlackYeti]

5 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Sel also makes sense, given this quote from its essay:

  Reveal hidden contents

The planet itself fasciliates this, as it is larger than most, with its size around 1.5 cosmere standard, and gravity at 1.2 cosmere standard.

Now I'm no expert on physics, but I'm pretty sure this is the highest gravity on a planet we've seen so far, and I'm relatively certain that the greater gravity is on a planet, the more dense its natural materials are. On top of what Blightsong just brought up (about Sel's investiture being condensed in the Cognitive Realm), it makes quite a lot of sense.

Actually the gravity is determined by the distance from the planet and its mass,  the latter of which is itself determined by size and density. Given the much higher size of the planet, the slightly higher gravity means that the density of the planet is actually lower than the cosmere standard. I've done some quick calculations to verify this: Sel does not have a high density.

[Amanuensis]

Hm. Interesting. Could I ask you to show me your math on that? Physics fascinates me  

[Zmann966]

12 hours ago, PallonianFire said:

The sky is literally broken in two. Dayside and Darkside. The Cognitive Realm appearance of a planet is tied to how the inhabitants perceive the planet, and if half of Taldain views it as dark and half views it as light...well, broken sky.

Gonna support this by also pointing out that there is literally something broken in the sky surrounding the Darkside star that has formed the particle layer that obscures the star. It could be anything, including ice or magic-mumbo-jumbo... But usually a dust ring or such comes from a celestial body being broken into fragments along it's orbit...

Probably not nearly as poignant as the whole Day/Dark split of the sky... but there it is, lol.

Also this:

13 hours ago, runyan_ft said:

 

Is amazing, well done!

[BlackYeti]

14 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Hm. Interesting. Could I ask you to show me your math on that? Physics fascinates me  

Sure, here you go:

Just to briefly explain what I'm doing here. In step 1 I'm finding the mass of the planets using the formula for g (acceleration due to gravity). G is the gravitational constant (  6.67408 × 10^-11 m³ kg^-1 s^-2 which can be eliminated here since I'm finding a ratio, and thus it does not affect the result), r is the radius, and M the mass. In step 2 I get the volume of the planets. In step 3 I'm finding ρ (the density) using the values from steps 1 & 2. Then finally in step 4 I calculate the ratio and find that Sel's density is 0.8 cosmere standard.

Edited December 1, 2016 by BlackYeti
Typo