Hemalurgy Requires Special sDNA

[Pechvarry]

Good point about the monks sacrifice. There is definitely SOMETHING (I'm shouting, Kurk) preventing the sacrifice of prisoners or even lowly fjordel soldiers (likely morale).

I also disagree about bolding being poor form. I'm reading on my phone at work. I'm also a slow reader. I guarantee I'm skimming 70% of non-OPs. Feel free to format the parts you need to jump out at me. Full post in bold would guarantee I skip your entire post, though.

[Shardlet]

Disclaimer: This is my opinion and my entire world of online interaction is this forum.  I am not well-versed on conventionally accepted online manners.

 

I take a more middle of the road approach on this.  I think there are contexts in which bolding is most appropriate and others in which using italics is most appropriate.  In this particular case, I think italics would have been most appropriate.  I  think bolding was a step higher in intensity, in this particular case, than I personally would have gone (assuming, of course, Tal did not intend that level of intensity).

[Dysphoric Kitten]

Ok, this is getting out of hand.

 

A. I did want an emphasis, and italics feels, to me, as a minor emphasis, easily overlooked.

On the other hand, when I want a bigger emphasis, I bold or underline.

Shouting is formatted as ALL CAPS, YOU STORMING HERO OF AGES!! FEAR MY CAPITALS!!!

 

B. Sorry, I did not mean it like that... FjorDor is neutral (still seems like an excuse for homicide, it not being negative, though).

[Kurkistan]

Sorry Tal, it seems I make a habit of singling out relatively blameless individuals when trying to highlight and impose my own personal style preferences.

[Pechvarry]

Honestly, I just enjoy disagreeing with Kurkistan. This is what love feels like, Kurk. Don't run from it.

I would've just +1'd the observation about monk sacrifices and moved on, but then I would've -1'd on accident. Sorry for stirring up the bee... Analogy thing.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Pechvarry

[Dysphoric Kitten]

Sorry Tal, it seems I make a habit of singling out relatively blameless individuals when trying to highlight and impose my own personal style preferences.

 

I make a habit of explaining my side of things. Somehow, almost every time (happens very frequently with Comatose on MBI) I do, the person disagreeing with me takes it as if I was offended (this is very hard to do, and I always try to look at the best side of people), and backs down as if trying to remain friendly. So do not feel bad. I am used to strange arguements and such.

 

Honestly, I just enjoy disagreeing with Kurkistan. This is what love feels like, Kurk. Don't run from it.

I would've just +1'd the observation about monk sacrifices and moved on, but then I would've -1'e on accident. Sorry for stirring up the bee... Analogy thing.

 

Yeah, we love you, Kurk! Seriously, I like disagreeing, as long as it is non-heated, academic, explained disagreement. Which it was.

 

And Pech, I have no idea who that +1 -1 part was aimed at. Would you mind clarifying?

[Claincy]

And Pech, I have no idea who that +1 -1 part was aimed at. Would you mind clarifying?

He is referring to the reputation system. I'm guessing you've noticed the green/grey (or red 0_o) bar beneath everyones avatars with a number and rank showing their reputation. When he's talking about +1's/-1's he's talking about using the buttons at the bottom right of the post to rate the post up/down. I'm figuring he's on a mobile device which makes it very hard to reliably hit the upvote button instead of the downvote.

 

[You probably know all that other than maybe the mobile bit already, oh well. Pretty certain that's what he was talking about.]

Edited September 7, 2013 by lord_Ffnord

[Dysphoric Kitten]

He is referring to the reputation system. I'm guessing you've noticed the green/grey (or red 0_o) bar beneath everyones avatars with a number and rank showing their reputation. When he's talking about +1's/-1's he's talking about using the buttons at the bottom right of the post to rate the post up/down. I'm figuring he's on a mobile device which makes it very hard to reliably hit the upvote button instead of the downvote.

 

[You probably know all that other than maybe the mobile bit already, oh well. Pretty certain that's what he was talking about.]

 

I understood that part, but who did he want to upvote? I did not get that. 

[Claincy]

I understood that part, but who did he want to upvote? I did not get that. 

My apologies. I'm guessing this quote:

 

A good point. Still possibly wrong, though.

 

Hemalurgy is quite unique in that it necessarily squanders power; it loses something to entropy. For all we know, Dakhor gets a 100% transference of power, or the sacrifices necessary to create its glyphs are simply initiators to an ongoing Shardic Investiture that really gets things done.

 

Actually, I think that second is more likely: the only time we see Dakhor just straigh-up sacrifice someone for magical effect is the instance of teleportation. Even then, the sacrifice might have been either a key to start Investiture, a small part of a greater Shardic whole, or used at 100% efficiency. Otherwise, it seems that you sacrifice people to create the glyphs, but then the Dor takes over and gives you its power going forward.

[Kadrok]

Honestly, I thought it was general knowledge that only Scadrians could use Hemalurgy, but I'm not sure why. I guess it makes sense to me that only someone with the "seeds of the metallic arts" could use any of the metallic arts. The Catquisitor parallel is interesting though.

 

I wonder if Hemalurgy requires the intent of someone with the "seeds of the metallic arts". "Ah!" you say, "But what of that guy who stabbed Spook?" to which I will respond that the application of Hemalurgic intent could have easily come from Ruin, rather than anyone physically there...

[Moogle]

Here's a theory with very little to back it up besides the fact that it feels right (which is not in any way actual evidence):

 

Only Scadrians can use Hemalurgy by default. Anyone else can use it, but only in one way: spiking a Scadrian to steal their mixture of Ruin/Preservation, sort of like how anyone can burn lerasium. If they then spike themselves with their new Scadrian spike, they can be regular Hemalurgists.

Edited September 21, 2013 by Moogle

[Kurkistan]

@Kads

 

As I thought (at least in broad strokes), but then we got this from Shardlet:

Source:

Shardlet: In hemalurgy, does the person doing the spiking need to have Scadrian investiture?

Brandon: No.

Q: So, anyone with the knowledge could spike someone?

A: Yes.

@Moogle

Perhaps, though I doubt it. How exactly are they supposed to benefit from Hemalurgy (stealing Scadrian Investiture) in order to benefit from Hemalurgy if they can't yet benefit from Hemalurgy?

[Moogle]

@Moogle

Perhaps, though I doubt it. How exactly are they supposed to benefit from Hemalurgy (stealing Scadrian Investiture) in order to benefit from Hemalurgy if they can't yet benefit from Hemalurgy?

 

How can a non-misting burn lerasium?

 

Your quote heavily implies my theory was completely wrong, in any case. I guess he didn't say that anyone could receive the spike, though, though given that animals can be spiked, it's not much of an inference to make.

 

I guess Hemalurgy is just that hard to do. A piece of metal through the heart of someone with powers, then stick that metal into exactly the right spot on another person would almost never happen by chance. It feels odd that anyone can use Hemalurgy anywhere, though. You don't have random Surgebinders on Sel. Something to think about, I suppose.

[Shardlet]

As I understand it, though Hemalurgy is broad in the possibility of it being used, it is narrow in the capability of it being used.  I think it is the most challenging of the metallic arts to successfully use.  If you'll recall, HoA says that Ruin usually failed to get someone spiked because it was so challenging.  You must have someone with an investiture of some kind to steel, the spike must be driven through their heart, and the the spike then must be placed in any of a specific set of bindpoints to be functional.  I can only think of a few few people with any kind of knowledge to do this, Sazed and Marsh being the chief two.  Marsh will have a knowledge of several effective bindpoints but only matbe a 10th of them all.  I suspect that other Shards will be aware of the bindpoints, but perhaps be unaware of hemalurgy or the proper metal for the proper investiture for the proper effect.  Some of the Kandra may know a couple of bindpoints and there may be some additional information out there depending on whether Marsh wrote the book that Wax was reading or if someone else did.

[Claincy]

depending on whether Marsh wrote the book that Wax was reading or if someone else did.

 

I've been assuming that spook wrote it. It doesn't feel like Marsh to me but the style of the writing feels a bit like Spook's chapters from HoA.

 

More on topic. The thing that bugs me about Haemalurgy's transferablness is the use of metal. Metals important on scadrial as the focus for the planet and I know we don't know much regarding foci yet but metal still being used for haemalurgy on other shard worlds feels weird. But then I imagine spiking someone with a gemstone on Roshar and that makes less sense, or at least "spiking" someone with a symbol on Sel makes less sense. It just doesn't seem to fit well with current focus theory.

[Kurkistan]

Mayhaps the uniquely Scadrian thing about Hemalurgy is that you need Scadrian metals to do it?

Edited September 22, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Kadrok]

You must have someone with an investiture of some kind to steel, the spike must be driven through their heart, and the the spike then must be placed in any of a specific set of bindpoints to be functional. 

There's something else odd about Hemalurgy... is the heart really a universal theft-point?

 

Let's assume it is for the sake of argument. So you drive a Steel spike through a Mistborn's heart into the eye-socket of a Hemalurgist (or whatever you think the correct placement of the Allo-Steel spike is in a Steel Inquisitor). Wicked. So it looks like the "eye-socket" "tells" the spike which power to take from the "heart". But then, suppose you don't do it directly. Suppose you pull a Marsh with the wandering around carrying a filled spike after driving it through a Mistborn's heart (In the Marsh example it was a Bronze spike through a Smoker, but let's roll with this). During the time of the wandering, after the theft-spiking but before the bestowal-spiking, what does that spike carry? If the heart is a universal theft-point, then without the bestowal-point to guide the power it could potentially be all four physical Allomantic abilities. Does it read your intent, knowing you're after Allo-Steel? Does the spike contain the investiture for all four physical Allomantic abilities until such time as the spike is bestowed, at which point the other investitures "die", leaving only Allo-Steel?

 

Even worse, some have suggested that the heart is an universal bestowal point. Now, Zane had a heart-spike bestowing enhanced Allo-Steel which he presumably stole from a Coinshot. But what if it was from another Mistborn? A Steel spike through a universal theft-point of someone with all four powers to steal, into a universal bestowal-point... what happens? Discuss

 

Footnote

And yes, I just coined "theft-point" and "bestowal-point" but feel free to use your own terminology, or to chastise me with the observation that others have coined those terms before me (which is possible).

[Claincy]

That has bugged me too. I think there might have been some mention somewhere that haemalurgy was more precise than just "through the heart" and that the actual angle the spike was driven in affected the outcome and/or whether it was successful. (I could be wrong on this.)

[Windrunner]

I've personally never heard anything about angles or whatnot.

[Claincy]

It could have been more to do with piercing different parts of the heart. But it could be something I dreamt altogether (I can't even think what to search to try to find it if a quote related to that *does* exist.)

[Shardlet]

With the info I am aware of I can get behind either of two possibilities pretty easy:

1) The spike takes all the abilities and the one that is given is determined by the bindpont through which the chatgerd spike is driven.

2) Intent plays into it and the spike takes the ability you intend it to take when it is driven through the 'donor'.

 

I intend to flesh out the question I asked at SpoCon the next chance I have to get us a bit more rounded understanding of Hemalurgy's broad usability.

Edited September 23, 2013 by Shardlet

[Kadrok]

Things get even more crazy when you drive an Atium-spike through an universal theft-point. If we go with intent it makes sense, but if we go with the spike taking all the abilities, and the others atrophying away once the spike is installed... an Atium-spike through the heart may as well take your entire soul!

On that basis, I'm leaning towards intent being the key. (Even if we dismiss the heart as a universal theft-point we are still left with multiple examples of different things being taken from the heart I understand, and so the same problem with "which does an Atium spike take" comes up)

[Satsuoni]

Of course, the case of Spook Spiking seems to argue against intent - did the soldier intend to give Spook that power? Though again, one may argue that in that case position or Ruin's Intent counted.

Other possibility is that heart has a huge number of Bindpoints close together, so that the donor spike would indeed get 4 powers (or your whole soul in case of Atium - it is God-metal, so why not? Lerasium alters your soul permanently, Atium steals it.) - but the recipient would only get the power of the acceptor-point ( )the spike happened to be the closest to - even if it pierces several at once. Or maybe the strongest donor power takes over and suppresses all others...

[Dysphoric Kitten]

Correction: every power is taken from the heart.

I am assuming each granting point has only one power linked to it, and so Atium can never grant it all, although the whole spiritweb is stolen - only one attribute can be granted per spike. If I am wrong, and double-heart Atium can do that, the Lord Ruler is a moron. He knew everything about hemalurgy and made inquisitors with heart-spikes. For them to have Atium, he stole from skaa mistborn, which was considered a waste by both inquisitors (I think Marsh says this in MB2 or MB3) and other people (just think about it). Why not just go with the 2Heart-Atium, then give them the extra spikes they need to complete the standard set, so they have double-powered and triple-powered powers? (inquisitors can pierce copperclouds - double bronze. why not make the pulses easier to hear with triple bronze?)

QED

Thus ends my ramble, and my point is proven.

[Kurkistan]

Correction: every power is taken from the heart.

 

<snip>

 

Could we get a source on that, please? Considering that "You can steal quite a lot with Hemalurgy. Anything encoded on a person's soul, really," I doubt there's only one theft-point.