Shardblades and Hemalurgic Decay

[KOuellette]

So with the Q+A, Brandon said you could steal a Shardblade with Hemalurgy. This has gotten me thinking: what kind of decay would it go through if the spike were left sitting outside a body? Would it take more than 10 heartbeats to summon the Blade? Something else?

[Voidus]

Depends on what you were stealing, getting the Shardblade might be a side-effect of spiking for something else. Assuming that you spike directly for the Shardblade I'm not sure, it's also a problem with feruchemy, how does that decay? There isn't really relative strength in it.

[RenegadeShroom]

I'm guessing that getting the Shardblade is a side-effect, too. It'd be kinda silly if there was a Hemalurgic spike that existed just to steal Shardblades.

But the question then becomes, exactly what does that Hemalurgic spike steal, and how would a diminished charge affect that, and does it also effect something about the summoning of the shardblade?

[Voidus]

Actually on reflection I'm curious about how the whole diminishing thing happens with Hemalurgy, does it reduce the amount of Preservation in the spike (For preservation) Could hemalurgic decay possibly only affect allomancy? As a result of opposing Shards at work. I'm 99% sure that it affects all but it's something to think about.

[RenegadeShroom]

It depends entirely on what is meant by the "charge". I always took it to mean the stolen Investiture contained within the spike, which is fairly straightforward when you're talking about stealing human, Allomantic and Feruchemical attributes, but when stealing a Shardblade? I suspect it'd also be easier to figure out if we knew more about how Shardblades work. Might it even somehow diminish the effectiveness of the Shardblade itself, considering that Hemalurgy steals chunks of Spiritwebs?

[Voidus]

How would the feruchemical attribute lose charge?

[RenegadeShroom]

I assumed that the smaller the charge, the tighter the limitations on storing attributes were.

[Windrunner]

I don't think it's strange to have a spike that would just steal a Shardblade. Presumably, some sort of spiritual connection is attached to a person's Spiritweb when they gain a Blade, so a spike would just steal that piece that connects the two. It's possible, since it seems that in the past, Plate could be summoned and dismissed in the same way as Blade, that a spike of the same type could be used to steal the spiritual connection to the Plate as well.

Anyways, we were actually having this same discussion in chat last night. The only idea we had, was that the more the spike decayed, the longer it would take to summon the Blade, like 15 heartbeats instead of ten. Also the question about Feruchemy decay has been answered. Remember all the time Inquisitors spent resting? It took them far longer then a normal Feruchemist to store up the same amount of power. Whereas a Keeper could store, lets say, 20% health at a time, an Inquisitor might get 15% or less.

[Voidus]

I assumed that the smaller the charge, the tighter the limitations on storing attributes were.

I wasn't aware that there were any limitations, obviously if you stored too much strength you'd pass out or die but you could still do it.

Also the question about Feruchemy decay has been answered.

When was that? I don't remember seeing it in any interviews.

[Windrunner]

That's because it was in the book

Spikes made from other metals steal Feruchemical abilities. For example, all of the original Inquisitors were given a pewter spike, which—after first being pounded through the body of a Feruchemist—gave the Inquisitor the ability to store up healing power. (Though they couldn't do so as quickly as a real Feruchemist, as per the law of Hemalurgic decay.) This, obviously, is where the Inquisitors got their infamous ability to recover from wounds quickly, and was also why they needed to rest so much

No worries though, it was just a quick mention. Very easy to forget or miss.

[Voidus]

Ah, I'm not sure how I missed that :S

One problem though if the only change is the rate that they store at, they shouldn't need to rest for long periods, since they'd actually be comparatively healthier than a full feruchemist storing at their full potential. And Hemalurgic decay shouldn't affect feruchemy to that extent either, with Allomancy it was hardly noticeable as being weaker. I suppose the spikes could have been left out for longer but why?

[Windrunner]

Well there are a couple factors at play here. One thing to remember is that while they will be healthier then a regular Feruchemist, assuming they received a fresh spike, the difference wouldn't be that great. If it was an older spike, which often happened as Feruchemists were difficult to find, the resting would still be a good idea. I wouldn't want to patrol Luthadel at 85% health as an Inquisitor. They have an aura to maintain. Staggering around and sickly or having trouble seeing, or shivering, (all things that happen when storing) would kind of ruin that image. So they stay inside when weak, but it takes them longer to achieve a reasonable charge. That makes sense to me.

I think you're misjudging the effect of decay here as well. Most Allomantic spikes are driven directly from the person who made the spike into the person who is being spiked. The amount of power lost is minute. Feruchemy however is much rarer spike for the Ministry to get a hold of, so they'll use any they can put their hands on. These spikes will last longer then Allomantic ones do (Allomancy decays faster, presumably because the system is of Preservation) but since they are outside of bodies more often (being used on multiple generations of Inquisitors) they will tend to be weaker.

[Voidus]

They have an aura to maintain.

Definitely a good point, it also might making Steelpushing for jumps a bit difficult if your eyes are all puffed up.

EDIT: Nvm, I can't believe I forgot inquisitors don't have eyes

Allomancy decays faster

I don't recall reading this one either.

I didn't think about them being re-used so yeah that's a good point too. Alrighty then, I'll go with that

Edited September 30, 2012 by Voidus

[dyring]

Also, I may have missunderstood how you meant there, but if I didnt, as I understand it, while a feruschemist may be able to store 50 % health for example, going around at 50%, the Inquisitor would walk around at 50% aswell.. but only 25% would get stored.

Not that he could only lessen his own health to 75% and then store 25%.

Just how I understood it ofcourse, but makes more sense I think.

I would also not be surprised if there is actually feruchemists of different strength. Not that there are any known proof, but that too seems likely.

As regarding shardblades, would be such an utter waste to spike for a shard. If they have some other ability spike them for that, otherwise just kill em, and pick up the sword as it drops... and you won´t haveto spike yerself nor have any decay.

Edited September 30, 2012 by dyring

[Windrunner]

I don't think that's the way it works dyring but you're free to interpret the quote however you like. Weaker Allomancy is never implied to lose random energy, they can just pull less through the metals. I think Feruchemy decay works the same way, they can just store less, no power just vanishes.

Voidus, I was basing the decay thing off of this, from the first chapter after Part 3 in HoA

And so, Marsh had come to harvest the man's power and draw it into the spike. It seemed something of a waste to him. Hemalurgy—particularly Allomantic imbues—was much more potent when one could drive the spike through the victim's heart and directly into a waiting host. That way, very little of the Allomantic ability was lost. Doing it this way—killing the Allomancer to make a spike, then traveling somewhere else to place it—would grant the new host far less power.

Chaos has made some points to me though, that Marsh could have simply been referring to the relative usefullness between decayed Feruchemy and decayed Allomancy, so it's pretty much up to how you read it until we get confirmation from Brandon one way or another.

[Cones For Eyes]

Bearing in mind that I haven't read Allow of Law yet (yes, I know, I'm a bad fan...) so I don't quite know how this works but... according to the wiki, aluminum is used to store "spiritual sense of identity." I would hazard a guess that a spike exists to steal this spiritual sense of identity and that a shardblade is attatched to its owner via their identity so by stealing their identity, you could steal their blade.

Which I think might be what windrunner was saying above now that I think about it.

Edited September 30, 2012 by Cones For Eyes

[Voidus]

Feruchemical Aluminum isn't mentioned in AoL except the arcanum.

That might work but how would you tap someone elses identity?

@Windrunner I really need to read Mistborn again, but I lent my copy to someone and they are taking forever to start it. Thanks for all the quotes.

[Cones For Eyes]

I don't know why, and I might have completely made this up out of nothing, but I created a theory in my head where you could steal someone's identity and then start using their metalminds if they were a feruchamist. Somewhere along the line, I just started assuming you could steal identity...

I think I need some sleep!

[Voidus]

Actually remembering, in the RPG I think it was implied that by storing enough Identity that you could tap someone else's metalmind. So this could work, but you'd both need to be Aluminium ferrings.

[dyring]

Windrunner:

But your way of seeing it, limiting the amount you can store, wouldent that then to make sense also limit the amount you can take out? Making them unable to heal as quickly. Or pull to much strength? And I´v never sen anything indicating such a limit, rather the opposit.

Everything we´we seen have indicated that there are no limits to amounts neither when storing, nor pulling out. The limit in storing health for example, I believe not to be a hard one, but rather that after a certain point you´d die if you stored more.

Would you agree on theese examples?

A healthy man can store more health then a sick man.

A strong man can store more strength then a weak man.

A young man can store more age then an old man.

Your way of seeing it would be as if hemalurgic decay for an allomancer wouldent affect strenght, but how long you can keep burning a metal. Or to use hemalurgy to make another example, A hemalurgist would be unable to lessen his weight anywhere near 0. He would be unable to use it to increase his age very far for disguise.

Or a hemalurgic twinborn pewter/strenght or pewter/gold would be unable to store more health or more strength then a simple hemalurgic strength ferring, or gold ferring. It just doesent make sense for me to limit it in that manner.

The easiest measurement of a feruchemist´s strenght is the quality of the transformation. the strenght they get for strength, that there is no or very little energy loss. Hemalurgy causes energy loss. Your way causes no energy loss, just slower storing.

My way of seeing it on the other hand, causes energy loss, just as all hemalurgy does.

Edited October 1, 2012 by dyring

[Voidus]

Actually that age point is an excellent one, Marsh only has feruchemy through Hemalurgy, how does he manage to gain immortality if there's a limit to how much age he can store? And he has that from a re-used spike so the decay should be reasonably substantial. Or is it more a case of get out less than you put in? Since that's the only way I can see it working. (Eg. Marsh stores compounded age at 100x but can only pull out 70x)

[Odium's_Shard]

See, here is where I come to Windrunner's defense, for the first time ever! I've been a long time away, but the Q&A brought me back, and so here I'm stuck for a while to right these theoretical wrongs!

Windrunner:

But your way of seeing it, limiting the amount you can store, wouldent that then to make sense also limit the amount you can take out? Making them unable to heal as quickly. Or pull to much strength? And I´v never sen anything indicating such a limit, rather the opposit.

Everything we´we seen have indicated that there are no limits to amounts neither when storing, nor pulling out. The limit in storing health for example, I believe not to be a hard one, but rather that after a certain point you´d die if you stored more.

Would you agree on theese examples?

A healthy man can store more health then a sick man.

A strong man can store more strength then a weak man.

A young man can store more age then an old man.

Your way of seeing it would be as if hemalurgic decay for an allomancer wouldent affect strenght, but how long you can keep burning a metal. Or to use hemalurgy to make another example, A hemalurgist would be unable to lessen his weight anywhere near 0. He would be unable to use it to increase his age very far for disguise.

Or a hemalurgic twinborn pewter/strenght or pewter/gold would be unable to store more health or more strength then a simple hemalurgic strength ferring, or gold ferring. It just doesent make sense for me to limit it in that manner.

The easiest measurement of a feruchemist´s strenght is the quality of the transformation. the strenght they get for strength, that there is no or very little energy loss. Hemalurgy causes energy loss. Your way causes no energy loss, just slower storing.

My way of seeing it on the other hand, causes energy loss, just as all hemalurgy does.

Firstly, dyring, allow me to prove you wrong by Word of Brandon. In the recent Q&A he explicitly stated that the limit was "on the lower bound". I haven't the exact quote, but feel free to dig for it. He said that there is a limit (humanely, ie, before you die, and also Spiritually) to how much you can put in, but there is no limit (or important limit) to how much you can pull at once. For example, you couldn't store say 1000x weight per second by becoming 1000x lighter, but you could pull 200 seconds of being 5x lighter in one second, and become 1000x heavier.

Allow of Law spoilers!

Next, as me and Windrunner will repeatedly attempt to describe to you: the decay makes little practical difference. The loss is comparatively little. This hemalurgic decay principle has some value when talking about the hemalurgic potency or Wax's ring, but the amount of 'pulling power' lost even in a few months is very small. We're talking about placing 20% or health into a ring, or 18% or more. The Inquisitors still had great power.

@Voidus

Do not be confused by compounding here. There is no limit to how much can be stored, just the rate of storage, by Hemalurgy this is lower. But in the same way that any Atium Ferring cannot make a net profit in age through mere storage, one would have to be at least an Atium Twinborn (such as Marsh, synthetically), in order to make any use of it by 'burning' the Feruchemical power, you apply the power of Preservation to your own supply, and exceed your own storage. Here, you could be made theoretically immortal, such as TLR.

Lastly, I have seen it commonly cited in this article that the stored gifts of Allomancy decay faster than those of others "because the two systems interfere". However, I would like to put across that the systems do not in any way interfere. At no point is Preservation's power included in the cycle of the spike. The power of Ruin is used to splinter the sDNA of the victim and splint it to the sDNA of the receiver. If these 'genes' are what allows the person to access the power of Allomancy, that should make no difference that any other gene, for it is the gene, not Preservation's power itself, that is being conveyed. However, Windrunner's quote could seem to suggest that Allomantic transfer decays faster, but I most certainly argue that it is not for this reason.

[Voidus]

@Voidus

Do not be confused by compounding here. There is no limit to how much can be stored, just the rate of storage, by Hemalurgy this is lower. But in the same way that any Atium Ferring cannot make a net profit in age through mere storage, one would have to be at least an Atium Twinborn (such as Marsh, synthetically), in order to make any use of it by 'burning' the Feruchemical power, you apply the power of Preservation to your own supply, and exceed your own storage. Here, you could be made theoretically immortal, such as TLR.

My point is that if Hemalurgy means you can't store at the same rate then compounding breaks down, if a Hemalurgist can only store say half of their age then when you burn the Atium you can't store it again because there is too much to store in that time.

[Odium's_Shard]

Again, you fail to understand. If we're talking about percentages, then theoretically, no matter their age, they can only become twice (100%) as old, and then twice as young, because by your logic, younger people would have less 'age' to store than older people, which we know is untrue, as the limit of their age is barely ever reached by the bound of the storage!

Secondly, you cannot tap a metal and store it at the same time, and we know that if you could, it would merely move the energy across, not increased the amount denoted by 'percentage'. For example, with age, age cannot be given definitively, whereas something like weight is finite. The amount you are capable of storing at once can only apply to you! So if your stored 20% weight for a second, then the next minute, you still being you, that weight is then applied onto you. For age, it is the same. Twice as old, twice as young. Twice as light, twice as heavy.

Compounding just increases this ratio manifold. Twice as old, ten times younger.

EDIT: I understand the point you're trying to make, but the simple fact is that normal Feruchemy follows the rules you know I have set down, whereas Compounding factors in external energy sources, so input does not equal output. Unfortunately this is Brandon's most obstinate RAFO, so we have so little information on its nature, I'm afraid.

Edited October 1, 2012 by Odium's_Shard

[dyring]

Firstly, dyring, allow me to prove you wrong by Word of Brandon. In the recent Q&A he explicitly stated that the limit was "on the lower bound". I haven't the exact quote, but feel free to dig for it. He said that there is a limit (humanely, ie, before you die, and also Spiritually) to how much you can put in, but there is no limit (or important limit) to how much you can pull at once. For example, you couldn't store say 1000x weight per second by becoming 1000x lighter, but you could pull 200 seconds of being 5x lighter in one second, and become 1000x heavier

Ehm I know wich quote you meant, but I don´t see it as a problem. It was thisone

3.) If there's really no upper limit to feruchemy for practical reasons* , why didn't Sazed just fill steel at ridiculous levels for a few minutes in WoA, and then go back to running instead of leaving his steelminds there?Say, being some 100,000 times slower than he would normally be for about a minute. Meaning that a feruchemist should be able to fill a given metalmind in very short periods of time if you fill at a high enough rate.

The low end is bounded. You can pull out tons--but in filling, you can only go so far. I didn't ever explicitly talk about this in the series, but the implications are there. Not all have the same bounds, but in your example, the body just can't slow beyond a certain point. Think of it this way--you can only fill a weight metalmind with as much weight as you have to give. So you can become very, very light--but you only add to a time for doubling your weight. You can't make yourself 100,000 times slower and gain 100,000 times multiplication. You can give up all of your normal speed, and so when you tap that speed out you are at 200% for an equal period. (And that's a theoretical maximum; realistically, you can only go to down around 75% slower or the like.)

He answered there to correct the misbelief of someone who thought 100 times slower while storing for an hour = 100 times faster for an hour, when its rather like half speed taken = half speed gained, percent, not multiplying.

Or to make it clearer, Ill set an example with weight. If you weigh 100 kg, and store 90 kg for 1 hour, you can pull 90 kg extra for one hour.

Not as that person thought, if you made yourself 10 times light for 1 hour, you could make yourself 10 times heavier for one hour.

So that answere don´t really handle my thought, rather one part kinda helps me. This part:

can give up all of your normal speed, and so when you tap that speed out you are at 200% for an equal period. (And that's a theoretical maximum; realistically, you can only go to down around 75% slower or the like.)

That hints that the theoretical max is that you can give up all your speed.

I know I suck at explaining my points clearly, but Ill try again

Two twins, identical in every way exept that one is a ferring, able to store weight. Both weight 100 KG.

If the ferring stores all his weight for an hour, he can then make himself weight 200 kg for one hour.

The ferring is spiked, and the ability given to his twin brother (and for good measure the spike is left out of his body for awhile)

- Windrunner believes the twin will then only be able to store 80 %(or so) of his weight, during his our of storage, and then gets 80 extra KG´s for an hour. This means no power is lost, wich is not in line with what hemalurgy is about. its about power being lost.

- I believe the twin can store 100% of his weight, weighing 0 kg for an hour, but when he uses the weight he´ll only get 80%, as the the rest is lost due to the hemalurgic decay. This way power is actually lost, as is the way with Hemalurgy.

(and windrunner, If I missunderstood you please correct me:)