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New Information on Time Bubbles


Kurkistan

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Hey guys/gals.

I know you're probably getting tired of my time bubble threads by now, but now I have actual new information, so stuff might start happening.

I asked some time bubble questions on the Q&A, and here are the answers:

If you are standing inside of a time bubble, and throw a spear out of the bubble, what happens to that spear as it traverses the border of the bubble? Are different parts of the spear ever in different "time zones," going fundamentally different speeds?

On that line of reasoning, what would happen to a train and its occupants if Marisi stood next to railroad tracks holding up a Cadmium bubble while that train sped by?

In general, a large object going through a time bubble is not going to notice. An object is either in or out, and it depends in part on how the object views itself. People inside the train would be inside of its influence, and wouldn't notice the bubble. The spear would go from one to the other, but would never be in both.


We have definite confirmation of objects always being entirely in/out. We also have the example of a passenger in a train being unaffected by a Cadmium bubble which the train passes through.

This might fall under my distension theory, with the train distending the bubble away from it's passengers, but we also have the intriguing statement that it "depends in part on how the object views itself." So a passenger who doesn't view him/herself as "on" the train might be affected? Or is that too broad an interpretation for "in part?"

Don't worry, I won't subject you to a mega-post (yet). Theorize away! Edited by Kurkistan
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I think even if you tried, while you were on a train you couldn't think of yourself as not actually on it. You'd need a whole different style of perception to think that way. For that reason, I don't think in this case the self-definition would make much difference.

EDIT: Though you might be able to do so in other circumstances, so it still has consequences.

Edited by Straff Venture
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How does this work with Wax's original theory that the Vanishers were using speed bubbles? Perhaps, instead of the whole train, it works on a car-by-car basis? Is a train one whole cognitive aspect, or does each car contribute to the overall cognitive aspect? What about an arrow? It's made of several different parts that could concieve of themselves as different things. That bit about "how the object percieves itself" really throws time bubbles, and the nature of objects themselves in the Cosmere into question.

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How does this work with Wax's original theory that the Vanishers were using speed bubbles? Perhaps, instead of the whole train, it works on a car-by-car basis? Is a train one whole cognitive aspect, or does each car contribute to the overall cognitive aspect? What about an arrow? It's made of several different parts that could concieve of themselves as different things. That bit about "how the object percieves itself" really throws time bubbles, and the nature of objects themselves in the Cosmere into question.

I don't think we're in too deep of a pit here with "how an object perceives itself." My first impression from that was more of a sense of location/belonging than anything else. So each part of the arrow perceives itself as part of the arrow as a whole, passengers on a train perceive themselves as within the train, etc.

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I don't think we're in too deep of a pit here with "how an object perceives itself." My first impression from that was more of a sense of location/belonging than anything else. So each part of the arrow perceives itself as part of the arrow as a whole, passengers on a train perceive themselves as within the train, etc.

I agree. Simply 'not knowing you were in a speed bubble' would not keep it from affecting you, as we see Wax not instantly knowing about Wayne's speed bubble but it still having an effect on him. I would also say it is the type of perception that makes us think of our chest or head as the centre of our body.

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I think you might be misreading what he stated. He said they would be under the influence of the bubble, they just wouldn't notice it. That isn't too hard to invision.

He said "People inside the train would be inside of its influence, and wouldn't notice the bubble." "It" has to be the train because that sentence was a new line of discussion and no other singular inanimate noun had been used up until that point. So people inside the train are under the train's influence.

Here is what I envision when you say that people inside the train are affected by the Cadmium bubble while the train itself is not:

John is standing in the aisle of a train travelling at 60 mph, but feels like he is at rest and does not experience any acceleration. Marasi throws up a Cadmium bubble which encompasses John and the train car he is in. The train doesn't react at all and is completely outside of the bubble's effect. John, on the other hand, is suddenly traveling at 3 mph (60/20) relative to the outside world and at 0 mph relative to the floor of the train which is travelling at 57 mph beneath him. John is then hit by the interior wall of the train travelling at 57 mph relative to him. John dies or otherwise suffers serious injury.

In the moments before he lost consciousness, while a train wall is flying up to hit him in the face, John notices that something is amiss. ;)

Edited by Kurkistan
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In the moments before he lost consciousness, while a train wall is flying up to hit him in the face, John notices that something is amiss.[/i] ;)

Wow... I interpreted this very differently. When Brandon said those inside the train wouldn't notice the bubble, I read it as meaning because they were inside the train, which is not affected by the bubble, neither would they be. If the train doesn't think of itself as being in the bubble, would the interior of the train not ALSO then not be inside the bubble?

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Wow... I interpreted this very differently. When Brandon said those inside the train wouldn't notice the bubble, I read it as meaning because they were inside the train, which is not affected by the bubble, neither would they be. If the train doesn't think of itself as being in the bubble, would the interior of the train not ALSO then not be inside the bubble?

That's how I saw it as well. I was responding to Aethling by showing him what his ruleset would entail.

Our two option that I see right now are either the train just keeping its passengers out of the bubble by fiat or the passengers keeping themselves out of the bubble as a consequence of perceiving themselves as within the train.

Keep in mind that a time-bubble doesn't work on a moving object anyway, since it stays stationary relative to the planet.

They can't be anchored to a moving object, no, but they can affect moving objects, ala bullets.

Edited by Kurkistan
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How does this work with Wax's original theory that the Vanishers were using speed bubbles? Perhaps, instead of the whole train, it works on a car-by-car basis? Is a train one whole cognitive aspect, or does each car contribute to the overall cognitive aspect? What about an arrow? It's made of several different parts that could concieve of themselves as different things. That bit about "how the object percieves itself" really throws time bubbles, and the nature of objects themselves in the Cosmere into question.

Does it have a name? Then it has a cognitive aspect. The greatest most inclusive name is the most important.

Think of it this way. We are all parts of a multitude of groups. Different ones apply the most in different situations. The easiest example would be declaring war. I declare war on Spain(and have the political power to back it. Everybody is affected but not everybody in Europe.(We'll ignore the more complicated political backlashes of war as they relate more to this theories relation to chaos theory than needs be discussed). Now if I instead declared war on the city of Madrid only Madrid would be affected making Madridian a lesser cognitive aspect than Spaniard. A train car is a madridian. A whole train is a spaniard. An arrowhead is a Madridian. An arrow is a Spaniard. A quiver of arrows is Europe.

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I guess the difference of interpretation is coming from a fundamental difference of envisioning what is happening when the object crosses into the time bubble. I will try to explain what I see is happening, but first let's look at the original question and Sanderson's response.

Question:

"If you are standing inside of a time bubble, and throw a spear out of the bubble, what happens to that spear as it traverses the border of the bubble? Are different parts of the spear ever in different "time zones," going fundamentally different speeds?"

Response:

"In general, a large object going through a time bubble is not going to notice. An object is either in or out, and it depends in part on how the object views itself. People inside the train would be inside of its influence, and wouldn't notice the bubble. The spear would go from one to the other, but would never be in both."

The question and answer are both about what happens the moment that an object crosses or touches the edge of the bubble. The "in or out" part is saying that an object is either in or out of the bubble, there is no transitional phase. The instant the object crosses the bubble, it is in the new "time zone." Because there is no transitional phase, the object does not "notice" it is now moving in accordance with the new time, it just is. It is hard for a non-sentient item to notice anything, but the same principle would apply to a self-aware entity crossing the bubble.

My interpretation is that he is saying the people on the train do not notice that they have crossed into the bubble, not that they are completely unaffected by the bubble. Once the train crosses the bubble, it and all the passengers are under the influence of the bubble for the time it takes for the train to cross to the other side and exit. Again, neither the train, nor its passengers, notice leaving the bubble but they did enter, transit, and exit.

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I guess the difference of interpretation is coming from a fundamental difference of envisioning what is happening when the object crosses into the time bubble. I will try to explain what I see is happening, but first let's look at the original question and Sanderson's response.

Question:

"If you are standing inside of a time bubble, and throw a spear out of the bubble, what happens to that spear as it traverses the border of the bubble? Are different parts of the spear ever in different "time zones," going fundamentally different speeds?"

Response:

"In general, a large object going through a time bubble is not going to notice. An object is either in or out, and it depends in part on how the object views itself. People inside the train would be inside of its influence, and wouldn't notice the bubble. The spear would go from one to the other, but would never be in both."

The question and answer are both about what happens the moment that an object crosses or touches the edge of the bubble. The "in or out" part is saying that an object is either in or out of the bubble, there is no transitional phase. The instant the object crosses the bubble, it is in the new "time zone." Because there is no transitional phase, the object does not "notice" it is now moving in accordance with the new time, it just is. It is hard for a non-sentient item to notice anything, but the same principle would apply to a self-aware entity crossing the bubble.

My interpretation is that he is saying the people on the train do not notice that they have crossed into the bubble, not that they are completely unaffected by the bubble. Once the train crosses the bubble, it and all the passengers are under the influence of the bubble for the time it takes for the train to cross to the other side and exit. Again, neither the train, nor its passengers, notice leaving the bubble but they did enter, transit, and exit.

First of all, you seem to have omitted half of the question for some reason:

If you are standing inside of a time bubble, and throw a spear out of the bubble, what happens to that spear as it traverses the border of the bubble? Are different parts of the spear ever in different "time zones," going fundamentally different speeds?

On that line of reasoning, what would happen to a train and its occupants if Marisi stood next to railroad tracks holding up a Cadmium bubble while that train sped by?

In general, a large object going through a time bubble is not going to notice. An object is either in or out, and it depends in part on how the object views itself. People inside the train would be inside of its influence, and wouldn't notice the bubble. The spear would go from one to the other, but would never be in both.

So the second question and the answer about the train are both actually about whether or not the train is ever in the bubble, not about it crossing the edge. What was your reason for excluding the second question?

---

Also, I think Brandon would have been clearer if he meant that the entire train slowed down. He never answers questions in a deliberately misleading fashion, which I think your interpretation would require.

---

I also highly doubt your interpretation simply because of it's implications. I give you a train stretched out over 1/4 mile of track going at considerable speed. I also give you a 100 yard diameter Cadmium bubble (a bit big, I think, but that's from the RPG). If you encompass 100 yards of train, you still have 340 yards of train outside of the bubble's normal area of effect.

So you either extend the bubble to cover 4 times it's normal area so that the entire train is within it, or you simply don't put any of the train inside the bubble at all. Anything else results in John having a very bad day, on one scale or another.

If you think that the bubble extending to be 4 times bigger is fair, then I'll just extend the train to 1/2 mile or a full mile and so on until you don't think it's fair. If you never reach the bounds of fairness, I give you the planet Scadrial.

Edited by Kurkistan
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The reason I left out the remark about the train is that I feel it is nothing more than a rewording of the first question. The first question asks what would happen and the second gives an example of the same thing happening, but using a different object. To me, that is fundamentally the same thing, just using different objects.

I am saying that when the train crosses the edge of the bubble it immediately assumes the new time scale. Also, it seems to me that he has deliberately been pretty vague about answering questions that he feels will probably be explained in a future book, but I do not believe that is what he is doing here. He said the entity would not notice crossing the border, not that it was completely unaffected, which is what I see you guys are saying. As a very, very basic example of crossing and not noticing, imagine driving from Ft. Lauderdale, Florida to New Orleans, Louisiana. You drive across three separate state lines, one time zone, and numerous county/parish lines. They are borders that you would not notice without the signs.

Sure, some of the magic systems may not obey fundamental laws of nature, but then they are magic. Sanderson is not a physicist, and neither are vast numbers of his readers.

It is much easier to see this happening than to say that some objects are affected upon entering a bubble where others are not. We already have ample evidence that objects are affected by entering a bubble

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The reason I left out the remark about the train is that I feel it is nothing more than a rewording of the first question. The first question asks what would happen and the second gives an example of the same thing happening, but using a different object. To me, that is fundamentally the same thing, just using different objects.

The reason I asked that second question was mostly for the sake of "and its occupants." If I hadn't asked that, then I would know whether the train itself would be affected, but not whether or not it's occupants would be.

The first two sentences of his answer were about that train; the train was the large object that Brandon was referring to. "Not noticing" while still being under the bubble's influence is also a bit more of a stretch for a full-sized train than for a piece of wood.

I am saying that when the train crosses the edge of the bubble it immediately assumes the new time scale. Also, it seems to me that he has deliberately been pretty vague about answering questions that he feels will probably be explained in a future book, but I do not believe that is what he is doing here. He said the entity would not notice crossing the border, not that it was completely unaffected, which is what I see you guys are saying. As a very, very basic example of crossing and not noticing, imagine driving from Ft. Lauderdale, Florida to New Orleans, Louisiana. You drive across three separate state lines, one time zone, and numerous county/parish lines. They are borders that you would not notice without the signs.

Sure, some of the magic systems may not obey fundamental laws of nature, but then they are magic. Sanderson is not a physicist, and neither are vast numbers of his readers.

Crossing over to Florida doesn't involve all of the cars on the road ending up essentially bumper-to-bumper as each car in turn seems to just about stop as it crosses the boundary.

It is unnecessary and harmful to the cohesiveness of the magic system for the entire train to be engulfed by a time bubble, as well as a somewhat stretchy interpretation of the quote, so I am unsure as to why you're so in favor of such a system.

Sanderson likes to break the laws of nature in a consistent and understandable manner. He doesn't need to do stuff weirdly in this case, so why should he? Also, a fair amount of his readers are quite interested in physics :).

It is much easier to see this happening than to say that some objects are affected upon entering a bubble where others are not. We already have ample evidence that objects are affected by entering a bubble

It's actually much easier to see a train being entirely excluded from a bubble (perhaps distending its surface, as I linked to in the OP) than to have to explain why a mile-long train is affected by a hundred yard time bubble.

Edited by Kurkistan
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I guess the difference of interpretation is coming from a fundamental difference of envisioning what is happening when the object crosses into the time bubble. I will try to explain what I see is happening, but first let's look at the original question and Sanderson's response.

Question:

"If you are standing inside of a time bubble, and throw a spear out of the bubble, what happens to that spear as it traverses the border of the bubble? Are different parts of the spear ever in different "time zones," going fundamentally different speeds?"

Response:

"In general, a large object going through a time bubble is not going to notice. An object is either in or out, and it depends in part on how the object views itself. People inside the train would be inside of its influence, and wouldn't notice the bubble. The spear would go from one to the other, but would never be in both."

The question and answer are both about what happens the moment that an object crosses or touches the edge of the bubble. The "in or out" part is saying that an object is either in or out of the bubble, there is no transitional phase. The instant the object crosses the bubble, it is in the new "time zone." Because there is no transitional phase, the object does not "notice" it is now moving in accordance with the new time, it just is. It is hard for a non-sentient item to notice anything, but the same principle would apply to a self-aware entity crossing the bubble.

My interpretation is that he is saying the people on the train do not notice that they have crossed into the bubble, not that they are completely unaffected by the bubble. Once the train crosses the bubble, it and all the passengers are under the influence of the bubble for the time it takes for the train to cross to the other side and exit. Again, neither the train, nor its passengers, notice leaving the bubble but they did enter, transit, and exit.

He's talking about metaphysical knowing here. The Time Bubble never affects the train or anything that from the outside of the train counts as part of the train.(people in the train, on top of the train, etc. ) That's pretty explicitly what he's saying. Otherwise people would get killed by the train(moving at normal speed while they are suddenly forced into Cadmium speed land, which is too large to be under the bubble's influence.

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