Perfect State Release Thread (Spoilers!)

[soulcastJam]

I imagine it has to do with the legality of setting up this system. No one would have allowed the system to be setup if certain things weren't guaranteed.

 

Also, I'm glad he didn't go into Lancing.  It's too overpowered to be an interesting subject as it can do pretty much anything.

[vietnamabc]

About the Wode, Sophie said they just eat bland soup and sit before a computer but since she was Melhi's creation, did Melhi actually met the Wode or is Melhi an anomaly (everything about her just scream Agent Smith to me and when Kai use mental boost I immediately remember bullet time from Matrix), this is like The Machine from Matrix hired Mr.Sanderson to write a novella.

[ccstat]

I don't get the sex imperative. If they are brains in boxes in a virtual reality, how are they supposed to be pro-creating?

I understood it to be a requirement of the system, probably based on the same XinWey's Doctrine that establishes the other rules of the system. Something to the effect of "Procreation must be a voluntary act, chosen by both parties." This would (in theory) avoid the morass of eugenics and pay at least lip service to natural biology.

I suspect that the Wode is only allowed to create new embryos when certain conditions are met, and only from the parents involved. A convenient measure of volition and check box for the list is "did the parents choose to get together?" Hence the hoop jumping.

In practice, the Wode's compatibility ranking means they basically all get to choose all the pairings.

[Krenn]

What I'm trying to figure out is how much of what Sophie said about herself is the truth, and in what sense was it true?

by my count, we have roughly 3 female characters in this story.

an unnamed, maximally incompatible female chosen from a list. let's call her 'Eve'

Kai's arch nemesis, Melhi, who was deeply offended at the suggestion that she might be a puppet of the wode.

Sophie, Melhi's telepresence robot, who claimed to be a successful world president elected on the basis of woman's lib, and who hated the wode.


somehow, i can't shake the suspicion that almost everything Sophia said was either the truth about Melhi, or else the truth about Eve.

and it's almost possible that Sophia, Melhi, AND Eve are all the SAME PERSON.  The most incompatible person on the list might have been Melhi, but Melhi wasn't her real name, Eve was, so Kai didn't recgonize it on the list.  Then Sophia tells a true but edited version of Melhi/Eves past, and finally, Melhi takes revenge.

The biggest problem i have with getting all this to fit together is what was Melhi doing in the border states when she first met kai?  was she always planning to implement a scorched earth policy as part of her anti-wode campaign?  was she hoping to arrange a peaceful settlement, but overreacted when kai insulted her?

or am i overthinking this, and everything Sophia said was a complete fiction?

 

[Erai Sedai]

Such a good short story. Loved it so much. You just can't help but love that Brandon gives us so many stories

[vineyarddawg]

This thread is a prime example of why I love this site!   I have to be honest, in my first reading of the short story, I was rather underwhelmed.  Well, I was underwhelmed on a Sanderson scale, that is... on the grand scale of all literature, I suppose I would have been "merely whelmed," but all of Brandon's previous works have set the bar a little higher for him in my mind.  I suppose, going into the story, I didn't keep in mind that this was a novella-length work, so Brandon was naturally not going to be able to provide the kind of in-depth world exploration that we see in his full novels. But it seemed to me as though he spent a disproportionate amount of the small numbers of pages he had expounding on Kai's fantastical state... and Kai's state was essentially tangential to the story. So we spent half the novella learning about a state that really wasn't that important, then we raced through the last half of the novella in the (very, very different) state where all the action happens, and we find out all this new information that is barely explained at all, and about which many, many more pages could be written.

 

Many of the reviews  I've seen written in this thread, however, have really brought me around on the merits of this story.  And the reviews are not just "ZOMG IT'S SANDERSON SO IT'S AWESOME," but they're a thoughtful discussion of what actually happens and why it's good (or bad).   With this feedback, I can step back and really appreciate the story's arc, and even moreso, the fact that the "firehose effect" of all the new information at the end is exactly what Kai is experiencing, so it's appropriate for the reader to feel that, too. 

 

I suppose the final thing that bothered me was the overt sexuality and a veritable explosion of Earth-curses, which we don't frequently see in Brandon's work.  But that's not the worst thing in the world, and most authors delve into the sex and cursing far more than Brandon did.  It's just that most of his works use fantasy-curses and tactfully dance around the edges of the sex stuff, so it was a little jarring to see it so blatantly handled here.

 

Overall, I'd have given Perfect State a C- before reading this thread.  Now, though, I'd have to say the opinions and views expressed here have caused me to rethink my opinion.  I think I'd now give it a solid B. 

[StormingTexan]

It is funny you say that because I was "SHOCKED" at the sexuality (which was comparatively PG-13 described). Just because I was so preconditioned to not seeing it in Sanderson's works. It was really nothing compared to most books and/or TV. Still when I read it I was like whoa! I am by no means a prude and it takes A LOT to shock me in regards to sexuality in books yet this did it with something I would not blink an eye at in a book by another author. 

 

I completely see where you are coming from with your initial thoughts. I felt similar first read through of Sixth of the Dusk. I'm not sure if its fair or not for me to do so but I try not to compare Brandon's shorts with full novels so I think of them as bonuses. They typically leave me with a lot more questions than answers but I think thats kind of the idea. It's like a teaser a bonus to the amazing Universe Brandon has created. The exception being TES but I think that may be because I didn't have to learn about the world I already knew it from Elantris. That felt like a lot more of a complete story. This one is a little different since it was non-cosmere but I tried to take it for what it it a fun little bonus. I really hope Brandon decides to turn this in to more but if he doesn't I will just leave it with my own little speculation. I think that's hard for us to do sometimes with regard to Brandon's work because we are use to eventually getting answers or at least knowing we will. 

Edited April 6, 2015 by StormingTexan

[Lightning]

I think I would have been shocked by some of the story, if my wife hadn't read it first, and warned me.  Because of that, I was able to ignore the overt parts (and apparently the swear words too), and just really enjoy the story!  [However, I won't recommend this book to my brother, who is bothered by such things, or let my daughter read it.  So, overall, I think that those parts were unnecessary, and not in line with Brandon's previous style, so potentially upsetting.]  Still, the story (apart from those things) was awesome!

 

In fact, it was so good that I haven't been able to stop thinking about it for the last couple of days.  Here are some things I keep thinking about.

 

1. When Sophie touched Kai, to change his code, I was wondering whether she also added a virus to that code (for some inscrutable purpose).  I imagine that the code deals with how the computer sends signals to Kai's brain, how Kai sees himself, and so forth.  Can you change your code to make your brain think you are suffocating?  (Can the code actually make the machines taking care of your brain lower the oxygen output, and actually make you suffocate?)  Using the code can you make yourself look like whatever you want?  Could you make yourself have horrible sores?  An old body?  etc...

 

2. The fact that Sophie/Mehli didn't use that opportunity to kill Kai immediately tells me something more is going on than just vengeance.  I wonder what type of person Mehli is, what her motivations could be.  That would be a VERY interesting story.

 

3. A lot of people seem to have dismissed Kai's magic system as unimportant.  But I wonder if what Kai does is any different than hacking.  Yes, I know that Kai says he is no good at hacking--but perhaps that's because he's thinking about it the wrong way.

 

In other words, everything these brains-in-a-jar do is just send signals to the computer taking care of them, the computer interprets those signals, and things happen.  Couldn't Kai's magic system itself be a hack on hacking?  Isn't Kai's use of the magic really just a direct interface to the computers, doing a quick reprogram?  Or perhaps there really is a fundamental difference between the two acts.  I don't know.

[Kobold King]

It wasn't my favorite Sanderson novella--in fact, I'm afraid I'd have to rank it as my least favorite. But I enjoyed it nonetheless. I made for a splendid morning read.

 

Something that jumped out at me while reading the story. When "Sophie" hacks Kai's Lancing to power it via electricity, she claims that the hack slipped and that the Lancing is actually powered by heat instead.

 

When the robot picks Kai up in its claw, Melhi laughs and claims that the robot is protected from heat absorption. What itched at me while reading was that there was no way Melhi could have predicted that Kai would be draining heat à la Obliteration; how then, did Melhi not only immediately understand how his Lancing had been modified, and how had (s)he already designed the robot to counter it?

 

Because "Sophie" didn't slip. Powering Melhi's Lancing through heat was just another part of the plan, as was his victory. The whole battle was scripted from start to finish, and Kai danced like a puppet to Melhi's strings.

 

I love how I never have to worry about plot holes in a Brandon Sanderson story--everything in the narrative is there for a purpose.

[Fallen Rope]

One thing I'm wondering, if some of the states are based of books, is one of them Roshar or Scadrial.

[Sirce Luckwielder]

One thing I'm wondering, if some of the states are based of books, is one of them Roshar or Scadrial.

That's a good point. If you could have the perfect world, wouldn't you want to be in a Sanderson novel? That would be the coolest thing ever!

[Edgedancer]

Do you guys know what I love about Legion that Brandon's other novellas lack? There's actually a chance of more books continuing the story and following up on the sequel hook.

I enjoyed it and I really wouldn't mind a sequel. Something I would like to say that hasn't really been said yet. I don't think that talking about Kai's State was a waste. It set up his perspective of an God-emperor, how Liveborn interact with their relam (that is totally an RPG designed for them and has a multiplayer function. Comparing them to an MMO isn't really far off, they just have private instances. Although that may be restricted to Fantasy States like Kai's.) and is just something he would think about.

 

My only complaint is that there were a few Elantris-era Brandon writing quirks that drew me out of the story. Awkward sections were here and there. The flashbacks in particular made me cringe. Also, I found the idea that a society of people capable of creating AIs still die of old age before hitting 1000 more than a little questionable.

I think the implication was that they don't die so much of old age as that the Wode simply pulls their plug once they get too bored. Their thought process probably goes something like this.

He's constantly bored = He isn't enjoing himself = He doesn't create more happiness in the population = He's a waste of resources.

[king of nowhere]

I think the implication was that they don't die so much of old age as that the Wode simply pulls their plug once they get too bored. Their thought process probably goes something like this.

He's constantly bored = He isn't enjoing himself = He doesn't create more happiness in the population = He's a waste of resources.

 

I don't think so. nothing we saw about the wode would imply they are not benevolent or they would not value the life of people.

Simply, the body is extremely complex, and the brain is its most complex part. and while you can fix it while it breaks down, there are some small things that you cannot fix. hence why that advanced society can expand lifespan to hundreds of years, but not yet to immortality.

IIt's like a car engine, really. It will degrade after a while. You can fix it, but it willl never come out as new. You can get a more skilled mechanic to keep it going longer, but still small flaws in the metal will accumulate that you cannot fix. eventually you have to melt down the engine, or to change every part until nothing of the old engine remains. which, on a real brain, would mean killing it.

A possibility, of course, would be to get all your thinking process into a computer, then go on as an AI. But, while the metalborn characters seems fully sentient, if that option is never considered by anyone probably it means that they aren't fully real and the tech level is just not enough to fully transfer a human consciousness into a computer, even if you can make a simulation that will egregiously pass a turing test. - although I agree with Kai on that aspect, that they are still people, if not as important as the liveborn.

 

I have to say, the book raises a lot of interesting phylosophical points, although it wasn't that mind-blowing to me because I myself faced all those points long ago - I have a sci-fi setting in my mind, it kept progressing until it reached a far future where they learned to find ways around the laws of thermodinamics and create energy out of nowhere, and they can condense it into matter and then use ultrarapid precision teleport to teleport every single atom in its place and make everything they want, and they have so much energy that they can use that process to create simple consumer goods (yes, I know fully well that telesynthesizing a kilogram of matter would require more energy than was released by the biggest atomic bomb; the fact that that kind of energy is available to the common household on a daily basis only shows how ludicrous is the tech level reached), and the world is so boring because the machines provide for everything and the robots are much smarter than humans anyway and many people feel like their life has no meaning. And many choose to live in virtual simulations that are indistinguishable from reality, (by teleporting photons or ions in specific places to stimulate the neurons they can do anything. Heck, even real couples will have virtual sex more often than real one, because the virtual one is actually better, and again that shows how ludicrous is the tech level). They can even choose to forget that it is a simulation, the mind-interfacing machines can read the brain perfectly and they can stop a thought at any time. You know, like when you dream, and it seems real, and then you wake up and realize it was ridiculous but it seemed rreal because you never thought about it. In fact, the only fear of the main characters was that they would wake up and discover that all their world, and possibly their loved ones too, was a simulation.

There are practically no stimuli for people in that world. No need to learn or practice anything, because you can have anything imprinted in your brain. no need to do any sport,  because in virtual reality you can do it and it will feel better anyway. pointless to get invoolved in politics; what do you need the government for when people can think something they want and a machine will read their mind, interpret that request, and create that something out of thin air? very difficult to make friends among real people, because how would you meet them? you don't go to school, don't go to work, don't have hobbies that cannot be done better with an informatic interface.  The computer can anyway make you a simulated friend that will be totally undistinguishable from a real one and will be tailored to best fit with you. Even love is rare. Most people are too lazy to look up for a compatible partner among real people, when they can just ask the computer to read their mind and generate the perfect partner for them, and then hole up in a virtual reality and forget it's virtual and be happy ever after. Many people do just that. Others commit suicide, and then their spirit suicide too (long story short, there is a known afterlife, and spirits cannot be killed there, but if one stops thinking and wanting to live, he will gradually vanish and be no more). Others decide to live in communities with little technology. Others take pleasure in raising children, since that's mostly the only thing that cannot simulated better - you can simulate a perfect child, but that would spoil the effect. And they regularly telesynthesize new star systems to accomodate the new population, so they're not gonna run out of space to accomodate new people. Others yet find some hobby that they like, maybe some real friends and a family, and manage with it. Others turn to crime and bullying, just as an attempt to break the monotony: despite all the education programs, and a police that can read your mind to see if you're guilty, they have a crime rate that is strikingly high.

 

I stopped advancing the setting at that point because I could not conceive any realistic way that it could require a hero. Especially a supersoldier-like band of heroes, with superpowers (I also incorporated a magic-like power with virtually no limitations, except that you are limited in the amount of energy you can access, you cannot modify the laws of physics - something that the technology of the setting can actually do -  you cannot resurrect more than one person every few years, you cannot kill a soul in the afterlife, and there are shields that can completely negagte the use of that power in large areas, so it is totally useless in war.)

I know it is very over-the-top, but at the time I was, like, 15; I started the setting in a nearer future when I was 8, and gradually advanced the technology. I think I did a pretty cool stuff for my age. I thought about writing something in it a few times, but while I think there is a good setting,  I completely lack a meaningful story or good characters. If I ever will, I will go back at the beginning of the setting, a few hundreds years in the future, with technology that we can still relate. Except, as I said, I lack a good story and good characters.

Anyway, the point is that I already came up with a civilization so advanced that it could put itself into a virtual reality, and would be motivated by it because the real world had no challenges anymore and had become boring, so I already had considered all the questions they posed in some depth.

 

I also believe that sophie and melhi have much in common, and melhi is doing what she's doing mostly to disobey the wode. and who knows, maybe it was exactly kai's comment 30 years earlier to spur her to want to change her life. so she swept kai's fundations from under his feet, just like he unwittingly did with her. very karmic, and I can see an actual romance between them.

[Fallen Rope]

That's a good point. If you could have the perfect world, wouldn't you want to be in a Sanderson novel? That would be the coolest thing ever!

Apart from the Final empire era scadrial, that would be too depressing.

[Nokomis]

As brief as it was, my wife is happy to see Sanderson put in a bit more sexuality than "she smiled and dropped her shift" fade to black. I, personally, don't really mind either way, but I can see her point that at least learning more about how people desire each other gives us a bit more insight into their relationship. She was really into Siri and Susebron, but was mad about the fade to black moment, and now I'm having a really hard time getting her to read any more of Sanderson's work. She agrees that the stories are amazing, but she gets frustrated at the lack of romantic relationships, and the physicality that comes with it. She's not saying that she needs him to go Outlander with it, but she wants to know how they felt when they touched each other, what we're they thinking when they kissed, etc. So she liked this story in that it went a little further into that, not much mind you, but further than before. That Kai noticed their heat mingling in the cold rain.

As for Sophie, I'm half thinking that her programming, i.e. history and personality, was copied from Melhi. Granted Melhi is a gifted hacker, but that doesn't necessarily translate to creating a 3 dimensional character or AI. So either Sophie was a copy, or perhaps, and more feasible, an avatar. I wouldn't be surprised to see that Melhi actually started to fall for Kai, assuming the avatar theory, but after a decades long grudge wasn't going to let it go after just a short time of getting to know him.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Nokomis

[Meg]

Meanwhile I've read The Perfect State. Honestly, I'm disappointed for some reasons, that I'm not really able to put into (English) words. Also apparently I'm one of those who are not "happy" that there was "more sex" in this story than in others. It didn't bother me but it also didn't add a positive aspect to the story. 

I was reminded of "Matrix" and today I've read an article about epistemology and the "brain in a vat" thought experiment of Hilary Putnam.¹ I wondered if this experiment was an inspiration for The Perfect State as it was for "Matrix" though I'd prefer Descartes' evil demon hypothesis.

 

^{*keeps waiting for the Stormlight Archive 3*}

[Kasimir]

Actually, I wouldn't consider Perfect State to be inspired by Putnam or Descartes (since those are epistemological and nothing about Perfect State resonates that much with knowledge claims.) While there is some element of brains-in-vats, for sure, I present you:

Robert Nozick's thought experiment of the experience machine, meant to refute hedonism Notice any conceptual similarities?
 
Edit: At a bit more length, the most basic core of hedonism is the position that pleasure is the only absolute good, just as pain is the only absolute bad. (So, pleasure is good in itself. Contrast this to the idea of an 'instrumental good', which is something that is good because of what it gets you. So, going to the dentist is intrumentally good: there's nothing about the visit in and of itself that is good, but the results of the visit are good.) Now, when you add some basic ethics (think utilitarianism) to this hedonistic thesis, you get: 'the ethical/right thing to do is to create the greatest amount of pleasure/happiness for the most number of people.'
 

XinWey’s Doctrine states that the most essential morality of mankind is to create the greatest amount of happiness among the greatest number of people while using the least amount of resources.

Looks familiar?

Note that this 'upgraded' utilitarian/ethical hedonist position is still tied to the essential goodness of pleasure/happiness, at least for our current purposes. Without that, utilitarianism/ethical hedonism doesn't fly very far.

So Nozick's thought experiment asks you to imagine a machine which generates lots of pleasure. Take it as a fact that by entering the 'experience machine', you will experience the most amount of pleasure. To make things more sophisticated and to be more charitable to the hedonist, he grants plenty of things: you will experience a simulated reality in the experience machine which is designed to maximise your pleasure. Everything you've ever wanted will be given to you. (Again, in another variant/as another layer of sophistication, the machine will even simulate struggle before achievement, in order to make the sense of achievement all the more pleasurable.) Well, should you enter the machine? What Nozick wants to draw on is your intuition that you don't want to enter the machine; whether in the form of hesitation or doubt. This intuition is supposed to indicate that it is not the case that the only absolute good: there are other things out that clearly matter to us besides just pleasure.

Well, so the hedonist has several possibilities. One main response is: well, I would enter the experience machine, but it would be selfish of me to do so when everyone else can't. (Nozick's answer: have everyone enter the experience machine; allow a system to keep the machines running, to perpetuate humankind, etcetera. [The Wode] Granting all of these--would you enter the machine?)

It's a long and interesting debate, because it basically boils down to whether we have anything to ground the intuition that something is missing from the experience machine (or if we even have that intuition.) A second worry is whether the reality of the achievement matters--and whether an achievement in the experience machine is less real. And so on.

[i do study this, after all Even if value theory and ethics aren't my area of specialisation. The glee I got from seeing the connections is real.]

Edited May 15, 2015 by Kasimir

[king of nowhere]

Actually, I wouldn't consider Perfect State to be inspired by Putnam or Descartes (since those are epistemological and nothing about Perfect State resonates that much with knowledge claims.) While there is some element of brains-in-vats, for sure, I present you:

Robert Nozick's thought experiment of the experience machine, meant to refute hedonism Notice any conceptual similarities?

 ...

The curious thing is that, while very few of us would enter into that machine, most of us here do their best to spend as much time as possible connected to it.

We have several models of machine that make us happy by simulating a different reality; depending on the model, we call them "computer", "books", "movies", "porn", or many others. the point is that the real world is boring. ok, it has plenty of interesting stuff, but very little exciting things happen in it. and we strive hard to keep it that way, because in the real world "interesting" often translates to "life-treathening" or other possibilities of very unpleasant stuff. while in those simulated world, we can have exciting things happpening on a regular base with no personal risk, so we can get the exciting without the terrifying.

Of course there is a vast difference between spending your free time connected to the machine and spending all of your life into it.

But I find it quite curious that we would not want to live in a virtual reality, but we plunge into several virtual realities every day.

 

Thinking about it, I believe a realistic scenario could be that no one would want to enter the machine at first, but people would start passing a few hours in it, then they would like it and spend some more time, until eventually many will enter the machine forever, wondering why they ever tought there was anything wrong with it. assuming of course that the world is run by machines, so you don't have to worry about life support.

 

last point, no matter the similarities, I wouldn't call it proof of an influence. After all, it's nothing that one could not conceive on his own, and phylosophy has produced enough ideas that even when you are trying to be original, chances are someone thought the same before you.

[Meg]

I just mused if Putnam's experiment (as well as Nozick's which wasn't mentioned in the article I read because the topic was different) might have been an inspiration. I'd say influence is not the same as inspiration. 

Edited May 16, 2015 by Meg

[Mckeedee123]

This story resonated deeply with me. I've often wondered what it would be like to have a magic lamp (and wish myself infinite wishes) or an eternal lucid dream so that I could just completely recreate the universe to suit me. It's what we all are at our core: Spoiled, snotty little children that want to get our way. The world we live in, where we have to respect and make room for each other, is fundamentally opposed to this aspect of human nature (the confrontation with the pseudo-mobsters highlighted this.) I might have had some more deep stuff to say about it (this was a very deep book,) but it looks like this thread has already covered it all.

 

My theory: Melhi's plot was to create a true rival. When Kai refused to battle for the valley, she saw something in that gesture that resonated with her own self-doubt. She constantly hacked his Perfect State to get him to pay attention to her. When he accepted the invitation to go on a date (making himself emotionally vulnerable,) she created a Machineborn that carried Melhi's own thoughts and feelings in order to "infect" Kai (think Inception) with thoughts to push his self-doubt over the edge. Her true revenge wasn't some sort of competition, it was about pulling Kai out of his complacency so that when he actually met Melhi, they could understand each other better (not that Melhi isn't super-competitive. She is, but she's sort of... acting out her frustrations on Kai in a way that's constructive for both of them.)

 

I really want to see a sequel, where Kai gets to know the other brains (especially Melhi) better. Think of all the worldbuilding opportunities.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Mckeedee123

[Colours]

I think some of the most interesting parts are about the decisions the people made, back at the beginning of the system - that everyone should choose for themselves who to have children with, for instance, or that everyone should have the truth revealed to them once they reach a certain age.

...In fact, I'd expect some of these rules to become outdated. The one about procreation, or example, has become sort of obsolete - you can see it in Kai's reaction, at least. It would, however, seem more important to us, as we are.

[king of nowhere]

on the other hand, it triggered good character development. i'd say, it is good to be pushed out of one's comfort zone every once in a while. it can lead to greater enlgihtenment, and if it doesn't it generally does no more harm than the waste of a few hours.

[The Invested Beard]

I really want more of this universe, if only because it really brings back good memories of reading the Otherland series. I think I'll give those another read through now...

[Angsos]

Just listened to perfect state and I like it better than Legion. I hope brandon writes more of Kai and I think the ending was a set up for more.

[Callsign: Necrosis]

Mehli is a confirmed girl, and is actually Sophie as one can see in the deleted scene which is considred cannon. The he's are brought up because of Kai's general sexists leanings, which adds to the deep complexity in this book's messages about reality, discrimination, and freedom. An excellent book. I come now, because I am preparing to write an essay on it for my English 251 class, so I've been reading it several times over the last couple of days.