Nohadon And Urithiru

[Kelek's Breath]

While reading the ending of WoR, where Shalan is wondering about Nohadon walking to Urithiru, it struck me that there may be some inconsistencies in what he claims.

Many thanks to Lightflame and this thread: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2551-theory-that-one-guy-isnt-nohadon/?hl=nohadon#entry44934

because it got me thinking that Nohadon from the vision and in world author ot TWoK Nohadon may be different people. Let's see why this may be:

 

1. In the in-world book TWoK, Nohadon claims that after the Desolation he lived a comfortable life. He also claims to have walked to Urithiru. Aside the fact that in WoR, Shallan thinks to herself that walking would not have been possible, since the city was high up in the mountains and they had not found any way down besides the Oathgates. So, either the way is magically sealed or, Nohadon walked to another city, or Nohadon did not walk to Urithiru.

 

2.Assuming the vision Dalinar had was of Nohadon, it occurs at the end of a Desolation. Meaning that the Heralds are going back to wherever it is they go after Desolations. The Knights Radiant still do not exist, but Surgebinders as a group do. The Nohadon of the vision bemoans the fact that there needs to be some kind of regulation on Surgebinding.

But, according to the in-world WoR, Ishar is the one who imposed the oaths on the Surgebinders and made them into Knights Radiant. BUT, this would have to have happened during at least the next Desolation after Dalinar's vision, once Ishar returned and thus after Nohadon's lifetime (unless, you know Nohadon has a longer than usual lifespan).

 

3.In the in-world TWoK, Urithiru and oathgates exist. But you say, didn't the Radiants create those? Well, let us assume they did. After all, in the lore and books, it is they that use them. So, can this be explained if vision Nohadon is actual author Nohadon? Can a non-existant organization at the time of the vision, build such a majestic tower and the oathgates in the span of a king's regular lifetime? Let's assume he lived another 50 years. Could he have united the surgebinders, got them to work togther and rebuild Roshar, and afterwards build The enormous tower at Urithiru and the Oathgates? In 50 years? Sounds highly unlikely.

 

4.There is assumed to be an Oathgate in each of the capitals of the Silver Kingdoms. Yet vision Nohadon doesn't mention any known city or kingdom from that list. Is it because the Silver Kingdoms came about after the Radiants formed?

 

5.It follows that:

a)if vision Nohadon is author Nohadon, then he found a way (through the Nahel bond maybe?) to extend his life through at least more than one Desolation so that he was able to witness/assist in the formation of the Knights Radiant and then write his memoirs down. There is a large time discrepancy that can only be explained through magical means.

 

b)vision Nohadon is not author Nohadon because: The Knights Radiant organization does not exist in the vision, yet author Nohadon mentions them so casually in his book, as if they have been around for so long a time, that people of his time easily recognize them; if Ishar organized them, then the radiants would have been founded at the beginning of or during a Desolation, meaning vision Nohadon would not have been alive; Urithiru,could not have been in existence during the vision, but only after, but that would have taken at least one more Desolation for the Radiants to form and many years to build; Oathgates are being used and they are not some novel invention, because everyone chides Nohadon for walking instead of using the Oathgates.

 

c)Urithiru is not in the same place as it used to be, or it is not the same city as that which Nohadon described. It may be a city built at a different location and date than in book Urithiru, and the original Oathgates were just surgebinders that personally elsecalled people to Uirthiru.

 

Thank you for reading.

 

[Xaladin]

My guess is that Urithiru was not built by Radiants. It was built before then by fabrial mechanics and/or surgebinders.

 

Or perhaps there is more than one Nohadon. The Hallandren made the error of assuming Peacegiver and Kalad were two different people. Perhaps the Rosharans made the reverse error.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Xaladin

[Kelek's Breath]

My guess is that Urithiru was not built by Radiants. It was built before then by fabrial mechanics and/or surgebinders.

 

I don't want to disagree with you, because I myself don't know what is true, but if it was fabrial mechanics it would imply advanced civilization, and what we've seen in times of Desolations, is people wearing leather clothing, i.e primitive levels of civilization. Which would mean no advanced fabrials.

And surgebinders would need to work together, which is clearly not the case (witness Kholinar in the vision which has basic stonewroks and primitive housing (compared to modern day Roshar).

 

I do agree that there may have been multiple Nohadons and the 2 are different people.

[dvoraen]

Honestly, I'm thinking Nohadon had a substantially higher influence on Rosharan culture and development than in-world books and studies say.  He was given a symmetrical name, implying that he was a "holy" man.  Why would he be effectively christened as the equivalent of a Saint unless he made considerable contributions?

 

To summarize what I'm suspicious of:

• Nohadon founded the Knights Radiant, and/or was instrumental in doing so.  I say this because while "Taln" calls them "Ishar's Knights," that doesn't mean Ishar founded them single-handedly so much as acted as the Herald that kept an eye on them, in addition to limiting the spren via the Words their Surgebinder has to say, to prevent powerful Surgebinding from running rampant from the start (in other words, Ishar "nerfed" the Nahel bond).
• Nohadon ALSO founded Vorinism; he seemed bitter about Roshar forgetting about the Heralds yet again, implying they may well have said as such in his hearing or towards him.  Vorinism would be a means of reminding Roshar's people that they really exist.  Additionally, there has been substantial tampering to Vorinism over the years, and the subject of its founder doesn't really rear its head, that I recall.  Most people probably assume the Heralds did, but (iirc) we are never explicitly told who founded it, only that the Heralds legitimized its "authority."
• The fact that the book he wrote survived to present day, despite being well over 4500 years old.  Someone was deliberately making sure it did, which means that this individual or group venerated Nohadon's methodology.

Edited March 27, 2015 by dvoraen

[Xaladin]

Elantris Spoiler

How was Elantris built? Who built it? Elantrians? Because that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
I want to say the question of Radiants and Urithiru might be similar to the question of Elantrians and Elantris.

[hoser]

Back before we knew where Urithiru was, Windrunner started a thread with a fantastic OP using quotes, some of which may still be interesting. 

I am not saying that the multiple Nohadon theory is wrong, but I think there are single-Nohadon solutions. 

 

• It seems to me that walking to the base of the mountain and flying or teleporting to the top would suffice for the parable. 
• Perhaps Ishar constrained the spren before he left or found a proto-Bondsmith to do the work of constraining the spren. 
• Honor was still around at Nohadon's time, perhaps he assisted in the creation of Urithiru.  After all, the city was "crafted by the hands of no man."
• With Kingdoms being apparently wiped out in Desolations before the Knights were formed, it seems to me that the Silver Kingdoms had to be a Radiant institution.  If Ishar was constraining spren simultaneously with the "vision," Nohadon's "time of the sword" could have been brief.  Making the different regions autonomous almost immediately (perhaps even under the previous leadership) would reduce the possibility of revolt.  A constraint upon said kings to attend meetings could help keep them accountable.  

[Patrick Star]

He's a Bondsmith.  He walked up the mountain.

 

Just my guess.  Brandon did RAFO somebody who asked whether Nohadon was a Bondsmith.

[Kelek's Breath]

He's a Bondsmith.  He walked up the mountain.

Just my guess.  Brandon did RAFO somebody who asked whether Nohadon was a Bondsmith.

I don't doubt that he was a Radiant and probably a Bondsmith. But he does mention arriving at the gate in Urithiru where he was not recognized after his long journey.

 

Back before we knew where Urithiru was, Windrunner started a thread with a fantastic OP using quotes, some of which may still be interesting. 

I am not saying that the multiple Nohadon theory is wrong, but I think there are single-Nohadon solutions. 

The thread is good, thank you. Lots of info there i had overlooked.

 

It seems to me that walking to the base of the mountain and flying or teleporting to the top would suffice for the parable. 

Again, Nohadon mentions arriving at a gate from a road.

 

Perhaps Ishar constrained the spren before he left or found a proto-Bondsmith to do the work of constraining the spren.

 

Nohadon is a Radiant (from the conversation he had with Karm/Dalinar). If Ishar had started the "be better or else" speech, his spren would know. I assume Ishar has some type of power that can influence the spren (or else his threat would be empty).

The Heralds have already left by the way the conversation goes. There are groups/teams of surgebinders working together (Karm had such a team) but it seems that they do not get along because they want to rule over people (god given right and such). I don't think a proto-Bondsmith would have the same influence as a god-like Herald.

Of course, we do not know what the powers of a Bondsmith are, but I am going with what we know so far.

 

Honor was still around at Nohadon's time, perhaps he assisted in the creation of Urithiru.  After all, the city was "crafted by the hands of no man."

There is an epigraph in TWoK that says:

 

“Though many wished Urithiru to be built in Alethela, it was obvious that it could not be. And so it was that we asked for it to be placed westward, in the place nearest to Honor.”

 

Perhaps the oldest surviving original source mentioning the city, requoted in The Vavibrar, line 1804. What I wouldn’t give for a way to translate the Dawnchant.

This would imply that people at least knew who built it. The Heralds, Honor? By the hands of no man might be through Soulcasters?

I just think that if Nohadon did all this, then he lived a very long time, beyond regular Rosharan lifespan.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Kelek's Breath

[Kelek's Breath]

Elantris Spoiler

How was Elantris built? Who built it? Elantrians? Because that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

I want to say the question of Radiants and Urithiru might be similar to the question of Elantrians and Elantris.

See epigraph in above response. People of Roshar knew who built Urithiru. They no longer know and neither do we.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Kelek's Breath

[CabbageHead]

While reading the ending of WoR, where Shalan is wondering about Nohadon walking to Urithiru, it struck me that there may be some inconsistencies in what he claims.

Many thanks to Lightflame and this thread: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2551-theory-that-one-guy-isnt-nohadon/?hl=nohadon#entry44934

because it got me thinking that Nohadon from the vision and in world author ot TWoK Nohadon may be different people. Let's see why this may be:

 

1. In the in-world book TWoK, Nohadon claims that after the Desolation he lived a comfortable life. He also claims to have walked to Urithiru. Aside the fact that in WoR, Shallan thinks to herself that walking would not have been possible, since the city was high up in the mountains and they had not found any way down besides the Oathgates. So, either the way is magically sealed or, Nohadon walked to another city, or Nohadon did not walk to Urithiru.

 

2.Assuming the vision Dalinar had was of Nohadon, it occurs at the end of a Desolation. Meaning that the Heralds are going back to wherever it is they go after Desolations. The Knights Radiant still do not exist, but Surgebinders as a group do. The Nohadon of the vision bemoans the fact that there needs to be some kind of regulation on Surgebinding.

But, according to the in-world WoR, Ishar is the one who imposed the oaths on the Surgebinders and made them into Knights Radiant. BUT, this would have to have happened during at least the next Desolation after Dalinar's vision, once Ishar returned and thus after Nohadon's lifetime (unless, you know Nohadon has a longer than usual lifespan).

 

3.In the in-world TWoK, Urithiru and oathgates exist. But you say, didn't the Radiants create those? Well, let us assume they did. After all, in the lore and books, it is they that use them. So, can this be explained if vision Nohadon is actual author Nohadon? Can a non-existant organization at the time of the vision, build such a majestic tower and the oathgates in the span of a king's regular lifetime? Let's assume he lived another 50 years. Could he have united the surgebinders, got them to work togther and rebuild Roshar, and afterwards build The enormous tower at Urithiru and the Oathgates? In 50 years? Sounds highly unlikely.

 

4.There is assumed to be an Oathgate in each of the capitals of the Silver Kingdoms. Yet vision Nohadon doesn't mention any known city or kingdom from that list. Is it because the Silver Kingdoms came about after the Radiants formed?

 

5.It follows that:

a)if vision Nohadon is author Nohadon, then he found a way (through the Nahel bond maybe?) to extend his life through at least more than one Desolation so that he was able to witness/assist in the formation of the Knights Radiant and then write his memoirs down. There is a large time discrepancy that can only be explained through magical means.

 

b)vision Nohadon is not author Nohadon because: The Knights Radiant organization does not exist in the vision, yet author Nohadon mentions them so casually in his book, as if they have been around for so long a time, that people of his time easily recognize them; if Ishar organized them, then the radiants would have been founded at the beginning of or during a Desolation, meaning vision Nohadon would not have been alive; Urithiru,could not have been in existence during the vision, but only after, but that would have taken at least one more Desolation for the Radiants to form and many years to build; Oathgates are being used and they are not some novel invention, because everyone chides Nohadon for walking instead of using the Oathgates.

 

c)Urithiru is not in the same place as it used to be, or it is not the same city as that which Nohadon described. It may be a city built at a different location and date than in book Urithiru, and the original Oathgates were just surgebinders that personally elsecalled people to Uirthiru.

 

Thank you for reading.

 

 

I'm not sure if I follow all of what you are trying to say, but I think you missed out on one key thing, that Nohadon lived several Desolations ago. He lived in a time of Desolation before the Knights, but after the first Nahel bond, and he formed the Knights, to try to impose a code of honour on surgebinders. After their formation, Ishar got involved when he saw their potential.

[hoser]

I don't doubt...

Again, Nohadon mentions arriving at a gate from a road.

 

 

Nohadon is a Radiant (from the conversation he had with Karm/Dalinar). If Ishar had started the "be better or else" speech, his spren would know. I assume Ishar has some type of power that can influence the spren (or else his threat would be empty).

The Heralds have already left by the way the conversation goes. ..

I saw the following, which could even be referring to the oathgate.  If he flew, walked up the side of a mountain or teleported, he could arrive at a gate. I don't see anything about a road.  Where is that?

I was not recognized at the gate,

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 817). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

At the time of the conversation with Dalinar/Karm, I interpreted that there were no Radiants.  It is not clear to me that the Heralds have left yet.  If the Heralds haven't left Ishar could do his thing before leaving.  What makes you so certain that they have already left?

When the Heralds next return, what will they find? A people who have forgotten them yet again?

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 851). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

[Kelek's Breath]

...

I guess when vision Nohadon says "when the Heralds come next time, what will they find" I interpreted that as Desolation is over and Heralds have left. I may be wrong.

Also, because he is walking and he contrasts that to his family travelling via the preferred, easy way I thought gate=road (not oathgate). And because there don't seem to be any gates on the plateau with the Oathgates. Again my assumption.

I'm not sure if I follow all of what you are trying to say, but I think you missed out on one key thing, that Nohadon lived several Desolations ago. He lived in a time of Desolation before the Knights, but after the first Nahel bond, and he formed the Knights, to try to impose a code of honour on surgebinders. After their formation, Ishar got involved when he saw their potential.

No, i know vision Nohadon lived several desolations before Radiants or at the very least one. I'm just thinking that there are either multiple Nohadons or one super-long living Nohadon (through stormlight/investiture). I don't think he could have formed the knights, built Urithiru in the span of a regular Roshar lifetime.

[Sirce Luckwielder]

Honestly, I'm thinking Nohadon had a substantially higher influence on Rosharan culture and development than in-world books and studies say.  He was given a symmetrical name, implying that he was a "holy" man.  Why would he be effectively christened as the equivalent of a Saint unless he made considerable contributions?

This got me to think this. He was given a symmetrical name. Symmetry is power and is a huge part of Rosharian culture. Is it possible that it is not a name at all, but a title. There could be many Nohadon's in the many ages that have come. If it was a title bestowed upon a man that accomplished much, then there could easily have been multiple Nohadons. Due to how much is lost with each Desolation, it would be easy for the specifics to be lost. Is there any Word of Brandon for or against this?

[Xaladin]

This got me to think this. He was given a symmetrical name. Symmetry is power and is a huge part of Rosharian culture. Is it possible that it is not a name at all, but a title. There could be many Nohadon's in the many ages that have come. If it was a title bestowed upon a man that accomplished much, then there could easily have been multiple Nohadons. Due to how much is lost with each Desolation, it would be easy for the specifics to be lost. Is there any Word of Brandon for or against this?

This is plausible.

[Patrick Star]

How do we know that he didn't just ride a horse up there?

 

[natc]

I guess when vision Nohadon says "when the Heralds come next time, what will they find" I interpreted that as Desolation is over and Heralds have left. I may be wrong.

Also, because he is walking and he contrasts that to his family travelling via the preferred, easy way I thought gate=road (not oathgate). And because there don't seem to be any gates on the plateau with the Oathgates. Again my assumption.

Of course there are gates on the Oathgate plateau

*sarcasm*

Edited March 28, 2015 by natc

[Patrick Star]

Yeah, I'm still going with an amazing horse.

[EddyRed]

How do we know that he didn't just ride a horse up there?

Clearly that must be a rhyshadium (sp?)

[SmurfAquamarineBodies]

Do we have WoB that Nohadon wrote in-world WoK or only Dalinar's word?

[StormingTexan]

“I walked from Abamabar to Urithiru.” This quote from the Eighth Parable of The Way of Kings seems to contradict Varala and Sinbian, who both claim the city was inaccessible by foot. Perhaps there was a way constructed, or perhaps Nohadon was being metaphorical.

“‘My family traveled to Urithiru via the direct method, and had been awaiting me for weeks when I arrived.

To me this implies Oathgates were around at this time used by his family. Nohadon used an alternative method possible surge binding to get there (the gate) but explicitly walking to experience it like the common folk. I do not know what proof we have that Oathgates did not exist at the time of Dalanar's vision or were discovered (yet already existed). Or that Urithiru did not exist at the time of the vision. It is possible that later the KR ran the Oathgates or discovered them in Nohadon's time. So in his lifetime after the vision he had to found the KR and write WoK. That leaves one big discrepancy. Both Nohadon and the Ishar seem to be credited with forming the KR. So I wonder if Nohadon was somehow bonded with Ishar and Ishar used him to create the KR while in damnation. Can heralds bond with humans? The Storm Father apparently can.

Edited March 30, 2015 by StormingTexan

[natc]

Heralds are technically as human as an immortal surgebinder that resurrects on another planet on death can get though. Biologically speaking. There's no reason to compare them to the Stormfather. Yet.

I always interpreted the situation as the Oaths and such being something Nohadon came up with to guide the organized group of surgebinders that Ishar possibly saw and physically implemented as an actual system. We know that the nahel bond is definitely more restrictive than it probably was initially at least, orNohadon would have nothing to worry about.

[StormingTexan]

I always interpreted the situation as the Oaths and such being something Nohadon came up with to guide the organized group of surgebinders that Ishar possibly saw and physically implemented as an actual system. We know that the nahel bond is definitely more restrictive than it probably was initially at least, orNohadon would have nothing to worry about.

 

 

I went back and reread all the relevant parts in both books and I agree with you. I think Nohadon is getting too much credit for founding the KR (at least by me). The only thing I could find was that the KR followed the teachings in the book he wrote. Nothing I saw said he founded them only that they adopted his teachings. It is eluded by Talenel Ishar created the KR in an effort to prevent knowledge being lost on how to fight the voidbringers between desolations. We do not really have a time frame between the vision and when the KR was founded Talenel just says "several" desolations ago. So nothing I see says the KR had to be founded in Nohadon's lifetime. In the vision he is "young" according to Dalinar and it is said he wrote WoK late in his life. It is possible Ishar was inspired by Nohadon's book and used it for the KR to follow.  

 

Its an assumption that the KR built the Oathgates and possible Urithiru mainly because we know they operated them (using live blades). I agree if you make that assumption then the KR have to be founded, the Oathgates and Urithiru possible built all within Nohadon's lifetime and that would more than likely mean Nohadon lived a very long life or there were multiple Nohadons and the one in the vision may or may not be the author. 

 

However it could be that the Oathgates and Urithiru were built by Honor or the Heralds. This didn't make sense to me at first why would Heralds need Oathgates to travel? They probably didn't but ordinary people would. They could have been created to transport people to a safe haven or at least more defensible place Urithiru during the desolations. This explains why they are in major  cities. It was only later they were run by the KR. 

 

So the last big mystery for me is how did Nohadon arrive at the gate of Urithiru? The easy answer would be he used surgebinding. But it is pretty heavily implied his family used an oathgate as the easy means to travel there. That completely contradicts everything i just said. If the Heralds ran the Oathgates before the KR then that would mean Nohadon traveled during a desolation which does not make sense at all to me. It then implies the KR were around at this time running the Oathgates which goes back to the seemingly unexplained timeline of Nohadon's life. So I agree with some points made by the OP. But really all that had to happen within his life is the formation of the KR which was done presumable by Ishar and would have had to be done during a Desolation meaning Nohadon had to live through at least two Desolations. We do not really have a firm time between Desolations although I agree with what others said it seems like it would have been at least 100 years for people to forget how to fight the voidbringers. It still seems pretty unlikely even if two desolations happened in Nohadon's there was time to found the KR within one desolation be proficient enough and running Oathgates. Something does not add up and now I keep thinking that Nohadon actually going to Urithiu by walking may be a red herring or meant to be a metaphor as implied.   

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

One thing I think people keep making the mistake of, is conflating the KR with Surgebinders. 

 

I think it is heavily implied in the visions that Dalinar experiences and the epigraphs, that there were Nahel bonds and surgebinders before there were Knights Radiant. Surgebinders could operate the Oathgates whether they are formed into Knightly orders or not. 

 

I assume that the Heralds built Urithiru and the oathgates, to better coordinate the response efforts during a desolation, after surgebinding began but probably before the KR were established. I say this, because Ishar would have had to have been present before a desolation and seen surgebinders behaving in ways not conducive to surviving a desolation in order to make the decision to impose the KR order on them. 

[Lirins hand]

Could Urithuru have been moved at some point?  It was built in one sentence, then placed in the next.  Sounds awkward to me, the way that was worded.  It is a synonym for "located" but "placed" just feels like it was set in place as a whole, not built in that location.  

 

My other thought is that in a place where one force can shatter an entire plain, it is conceivable that a similar force could push up a mountain under a city.  Maybe it wasn't always on top of a mountain, or at least as inaccessible a one as it is now.

 

 

“Though many wished Urithiru to be built in Alethela, it was obvious that it could not be. And so it was that we asked for it to be placed westward, in the place nearest to Honor.”

 

Perhaps the oldest surviving original source mentioning the city, requoted in The Vavibrar, line 1804. What I wouldn’t give for a way to translate the Dawnchant.

[StormingTexan]

That was my initial thought too that Urithuru was moved after Nohadon walked there and I think it is a possibility. This paragraph made me think it had possible been moved a few times.

 

“Urithiru,” Shallan said, pointing toward a shining city depicted on the map as the center of everything. It wasn’t in Alethkar, or Alethela as it had been known at the time. The map put it in the middle of the mountains near what might have been modern Jah Keved. However, Jasnah’s annotations said other maps from the time placed it elsewhere. “How could they not know where their capital was, the center of the orders of knights? Why does every map argue with its fellows?”

 

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (The Stormlight Archive, Book 2) (p. 547). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

 

 

The only reason I think it is not the case is there are a couple of things that elude to traveling to Urithuru via Oathgates. Bolding mine.

 

“I walked from Abamabar to Urithiru.” —This quote from the Eighth Parable of The Way of Kings seems to contradict Varala and Sinbian, who both claim the city was inaccessible by foot. Perhaps there was a way constructed, or perhaps Nohadon was being metaphorical.

 

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 513). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

“‘ My family traveled to Urithiru via the direct method, and had been awaiting me for weeks when I arrived.

 

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 817). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

 

Of course the "direct method" could mean by way of horse instead of walking but that seems like it would have been described as the easy method not direct.