Spiritual Constructs

[Windrunner]

As we’ve seen through all the cosmere books, there has seemingly been an interesting contradiction that I’ve noticed. Preservation and Ruin (and presumably other Shards that have created people too) gave of themselves, their spiritual energy, in order to create humanity. But if having a lot of spiritual energy implies sentience, then why would Shards, whose power is exponentially larger than the fragment that gives human sentience, be unable to truly think for themselves? Why would a being so rich in spiritual energy need a human to control it? I hypothesize that a being’s Cognitive aspect arises due to an interaction between its Physical and Spiritual aspects. I’m going to work my way through the Spiritual Constructs we’ve seen so far, in an attempt to explain them in terms of this theory. I want to make one thing clear, I’m going to simplify some things. I’m very sure that the way the Spirtual aspect of an object is built around it’s Physical aspect (like the Spiritweb in a human) has a lot to do with the specific ways Cognition arises. I'm going to put these in spoiler tags, because some of the images are quite large.

This is how I visualize this concept. The red color is an object’s Physical aspect, the blue its Spiritual and Purple its Cognitive. This would represent a regular object in the cosmere, everything from rocks to goblets, like the one Shallan talks to. The Physical and Spiritual aspects are in perfect balance, but they don’t create a very great Cognitive aspect. It’s barely there.

This next image represents a human. They’ve got a Physical aspect, just like anything else. However, they’ve now got a larger Spiritual aspect, thanks to the Shard that created them. The two are able to interact better. It’s kind of like the Physical aspect is more saturated with spiritual energy. This creates a being that is far more capable of consciousness and thought.

The smaller circles on the right represent the Shard's Physical aspect, like lerasium, the mists, and etc.

This is a representation of a Shard. It has a Physical aspect, sure. For example, Preservation’s Physical aspect could be seen in the mists, the Well of Ascension, and lerasium. However, physically that’s a tiny bit of matter when compared to the truly enormous Spiritual aspect of a Shard. Thus the Cognitive aspect produced isn’t very powerful, just that tiny sliver of purple. In a Shard, I believe that Cognitive bit basically is what drives a Shard’s intent and its search for a holder. (I’m not going to get into why each Shard has a certain intent, because I quite frankly have no idea)

The smaller circles on the bottom represent the Holder of this Shard.

Now lets look at this one, a Shard with a holder. This Shard now has a person, which is still not very much Physical. However, the Shard has an incredible amount of spiritual energy. I think this helps it overcome part of the lack of Physical there, as well as the fact that the person is bringing their own Cognitive to the table.

The smaller circles on the top left represent the spren.

Now lets look at a spren bound to a person. Kaladin and Syl for example. Kaladin is just a regular guy. He doesn’t have an unusually large Spiritual aspect (Like say a Mistborn would) so he can’t do magic. He doesn’t have enough of a connection to Honor to Surgebind. (Yes I know we haven’t confirmed Honor is behind Surgebinding, but I’m just assuming) And then we have Syl. She’s got almost no physical aspect. She’s (probably) a Splinter, so she’s got more Physical aspect then the average spren, able to interact with small objects and whatnot. But her Physical aspect is small, and like a Shard, all she knows to do is to seek out someone who follows the Ideals of the Windrunners.

Then they finally meet and the Nahel bond forms. Syl latches onto Kaladin’s Physical aspect. (I know some say she’s borrowing Cognitive power, but I disagree) He acts as a stand in for her Physical aspect. The interaction between these two gives rise to the return of her Cognitive aspect. Slowly her personality and memories come back to her. Now Kaladin gets a boost from Syl’s Spiritual power, almost like a Hemalurgic spike that grafts an extension onto his sDNA. Now he can access Surgebinding.

Nightblood is a similar case, his Breath’s that have (quite possibly been bound into a Splinter with its own intent and) been attached via a specific process to something physical, in this case a sword. Now that Nightblood has Physical aspect his Cognitive part can come about. I think the process by which Nightblood was created is also important here, creating almost an artificial Spiritweb.

If you look at Clod a similar, if lesser thing has happened. He has a few Breaths in him, but not enough to make him sentient. There’s a little bit of extra spiritual, and that along with Clod having a shape that is one of life, allows the energy to give Clod a little bit more consciousness than the average lifeless.

The last Spiritual constructs I want to speculate on are Seons (and this probably goes for Skaze as well). They are a Splinter for sure. But so are Divine Breaths and they aren’t sentient.So what’s the difference? I believe the secret lies in the Aon. (The person a Seon is bound to may play a role acting as Physical as well) They are a physical representation of the land. I think the which Aon is used probably has some bearing on on the Seon’s personality as well. It helps shape the Spiritual aspect into a unique Cognitive shape. The Divine Breaths don’t increase the sentience of a Returned because it’s not bound the Returned in the same way.

I'm probably going to be updating this in the days to come as well, if I see problems or new ideas pop into my head. Thanks to everyone who made it this far, you rock!

[Kurkistan]

Quite interesting. You're idea is lent extra credence by the recent Orem Q&A:

Q. Okay, so Syl, she’s been around for at least a few thousand years, right?

Brandon: Yes.

Q. How does she forget her memories? Is it in connection to humans that makes it so she remembers things?

Brandon: Yes.

Q. And she’s what, a Bonding Spren?

Brandon: You will find out. She [says she’s] an Honorspren, but you will find out.

Zas: Is that bond the Nahel bond?

Brandon: [Nervous grin on Brandon’s face] [laughter] There is a certain amount of... It is a symbiotic bond that is gained by Syl. And things gained by the person bonding. And the stronger presence in the physical realm, and the ability to think better in the physical realm is a part of that bond. She is mostly getting [something] of the physical realm. Without the bond, it is very hard for her to think in this world.

Q. Because she’s windspren.

Brandon: That’s part of it. That’s part of something else.

I also don't see any fundamental conflicts between this theory and my own mega-theory (which is good for me, at least, though it might not matter for you ). I could buy Cognitive aspects varying in strength based upon the interaction of Physical and Spiritual aspects, although there is the question of what this means for the nature of Cognitive beings that are merely shadowed in the Physical realm.

Entities exist on all three realms that are only vaguely shadowed on the other realms.

You have seen entities who exist primarily on the Cognitive Realm + are shadowed on the Physical.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Kurkistan

[Zas678]

It also makes sense with this quote:

DARXBANE (17 OCTOBER 2008)

Does Sazed get to see Tindwyl again now that he is a deity?

BRANDON SANDERSON (17 OCTOBER 2008)

Sazed has yet to learn how to touch the distant other side, where all souls go. He is able to see into the Spiritual and Cognitive Realms, and any spirits or souls who remain there, rather than passing on. Generally, you have to be tied to the Physical Realm in specific ways to not pass on. As for where Tindwyl is, I will have to leave this up to you to imagine for now.

Source

And you're right. I like this much better than the thought that Syl "steals" some of Kaladin's cognitive self. It makes more sense, and it seems to fit with what we know about Realmatic Theory better.

Hmm. There may be some more stuff in the Annotations that help. i'll look at it later.

[Kurkistan]

I've asked too many questions already, so I would suggest that you ask something about this on the Q&A, Windrunner.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Kurkistan

[Odium's_Shard]

So, quite a while ago, I made an assumption that was quite similar (though not at all as neat and presentable; good work on the Venn Diagram-esque pictures) to your own about the nature of the Cognitive Realm.

You have taken the opposite view point to me, and I like yours better. I believed that the Cognitive Realm was a bridge between Realms (similarly to Kurkistan's 'directives') and thus if you have not Spiritual presence (such as a rock), you would thus have no need for the bridge between them, and so you have no Cognitive. I assumed the reverse for spren.

However, I like the balance that this theory requires. A Shard has little Cognitive presence due to the minuscule size of one aspect. I eventually came to believe (due to the nature of my Vessel theory, that assumes that in order for, say again, a rock to be Soulcast, it must be accessible in both the Cognitive and Spiritual Realms) that all objects had some Spiritual presence, and your theory leads me also to predict that even Shards need Physical presence (such as lerasium).

Many people wondered why Ruin stored himself in Atium, for humans to take away his power, but maybe, in the end, he was just trying to gain Physical presence so he would become smarter or more cunning than Preservation (which we see in the Mistborn plot), by 'shifting the scales' to make the 'shared area' larger.

For now, I hope you don't mind, Windrunner, I'm going to leave it at this and (hopefully) come back with some possible (and maybe good) revisions, or at least offer supporting evidence or contrary viewpoints to shape this theory. i think this could be quite important in the scheme of Realmatics that I have been trying to piece together with my numerous attempts at provable theories (many failed). I also believe Kurkistan's is important in being, or finding, the correct viewpoint, so you should check out the link.

[Kurkistan]

Just to clarify, I'm quite eager to try to see if I can incorporate your theory into my own; or, ideally, if you could do it instead, popping over to my thread to add the implications of your analysis and thus preserving your original intent, as well as saving me work and the accumulation of perceived megalomania-points.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Kurkistan

[Emeralis00]

I'm really liking this theory. I'll provide a better commentary on it later, as I am busy at the moment. eventually.

Edited October 22, 2012 by Emeralis00

[Kurkistan]

Bump. Got any TES thoughts, Windrunner?

[Windrunner]

Yeah, I do. This theory is really only half done at the minute. I should hopefully have it done this week, and then I'll be better able to dicuss it with you guys

[Thought]

I hypothesize that a being’s Cognitive aspect arises due to an interaction between its Physical and Spiritual aspects.

So Kelsier, who no longer has a physical aspect, should also no longer have a Cognitive aspect under that supposition, yes?

This next image represents a human. They’ve got a Physical aspect, just like anything else. However, they’ve now got a larger Spiritual aspect, thanks to the Shard that created them. The two are able to interact better. It’s kind of like the Physical aspect is more saturated with spiritual energy. This creates a being that is far more capable of consciousness and thought.

Why, then, is there a difference between animals on Scadrial (which were created with an equal amount of Preservation and Ruin's presumably spiritual power) and humans (which were created with more of Preservations influence than Ruins) there? From HoA, it is certainly implied that a balance of Preservation and Ruin in people would have made them as nonsentient as animals. And animals there, also being created by shards, should have more of a spiritual than physical aspect, shouldn't they? So they should be sentient, but aren't (that we are aware of, I suppose)

Sanderson's system has a nice basis in theology, namely the tripartite viewpoint. This viewpoint holds that people are comprised of three distinct, independent, and separate parts: the body, soul, and spirit (bipartite holds that spirit and soul are the same). I'm not overly familiar with the system, but to my understanding, "physical, cognitive, and spiritual" would be valid adjectives to describe the three. This is certainly less popular in general, but if I understand correctly, it is particularly common among Mormons. This is by no means proof that realmatics is strictly tripartite in nature, but seems like relevant information.

[Windrunner]

You've got some interesting points here, Thought, but none that I think will present any problems real problems with my theory.

So Kelsier, who no longer has a physical aspect, should also no longer have a Cognitive aspect under that supposition, yes?

Well I could always go with the cop-out that Kelsier breaks everyone's rules, even Brandon's about trying to avoid bringing back characters from the dead I think I've got a legitimate answer for this one. I think that it seems likely that the faith is behind this. It's what allowed Kelsier as Preservation to speak to Spook which is a power Preservation shouldn't have, and it's also what allowed Vin to power Elend's Allomancy. Faith allows for connections between people so I'd say it's possible that all the faith from Kelsier's followers is standing in for his Physcial aspect. It's not much, not enough to actually give him anything of a Physical presence, but enough to retain his mind. He's also a Sliver, so who knows what effect that has on it. For all we know, Sazed could be even helping out here, wanting a helper on Scadrial, even if they don't always agree. (I don't really think this is what's happening but I'm just tossing out possibilities) Also

TES Spoilers

We know that a Cognitive aspect remembers what it used to be, like the window knowing it should have stained glass. It wouldn't surprise me, especially since we know that some bits of spiritual energy retain a portion of a person's mind, that Kel's Spiritual and Cognitive still remember how they were when they were human, giving the Physical provided by the faith a boost or pattern.

Why, then, is there a difference between animals on Scadrial (which were created with an equal amount of Preservation and Ruin's presumably spiritual power) and humans (which were created with more of Preservations influence than Ruins) there? From HoA, it is certainly implied that a balance of Preservation and Ruin in people would have made them as nonsentient as animals. And animals there, also being created by shards, should have more of a spiritual than physical aspect, shouldn't they? So they should be sentient, but aren't (that we are aware of, I suppose)

I don't think this is as big a problem as it might seem at first glance. There are a couple ways of explaining this, although I'm not sure at this time which is accurate, because there's no real way to prove this one way or another.

First of all, I think animals are more sentient. No one would demand that dogs can think, they certainly aren't as complex as us, but are able to understand tone, gestures, and even their own name. The way I see it, sentience goes like this. nonliving objects (rocks etc.) < plants < animals < humans. There's a spectrum there, and humans have simply crossed a point which we consider to be thinking.

On possibility is that one Shard needs to be dominant in something for a Cognitive aspect to form. You could hypothesize that the two halves use all their energy struggling with each other. Once one is "beating" the other, the Cognition can begin. Of my two explanations, I like this one the least.

My other idea is much simpler. I want to preface by saying that I don't want to make this a mathy topic, I'm just using numbers here because it's quicker then making a graphic. The idea is that the fact that Preservation is more prevalent in humans is irrelevant, at least for the purpose of creating sentience. It could have been 50%:50% (Or I guess 1:1 more simply) and humans would have gotten sentience. All they would have had to do is expended both of themselves a tad more. What they did instead was to go in more along the lines of 51%:49%. They still hit the magic number of 100% of the energy needed to make a human sentient but Preservation just helped more. Regular objects that would be created with their power (rocks other nonliving stuff) would be somewhere along the lines 30%:30%. Other living things like plants and animals would be, for example, 40%:40%. (I imagine this amount would be a spectrum, depending on whether the living thing was a plant or an animal, and how smart an animal they were making).

The fact that Preservation gave more only matters when it comes to the fact that Scadrians are primarily of him. He wanted to create people that he could be in contact with and that could be used to fight Ruin. Ruin demanded that he get a chance to destroy so Preservation just contributed more, to push the humans from non-sentience to sentience. Had Ruin and Preservation not been fighting, it very well could be that they could have made a human that was sentient.

Sanderson's system has a nice basis in theology, namely the tripartite viewpoint. This viewpoint holds that people are comprised of three distinct, independent, and separate parts: the body, soul, and spirit (bipartite holds that spirit and soul are the same). I'm not overly familiar with the system, but to my understanding, "physical, cognitive, and spiritual" would be valid adjectives to describe the three. This is certainly less popular in general, but if I understand correctly, it is particularly common among Mormons. This is by no means proof that realmatics is strictly tripartite in nature, but seems like relevant information.

I'm not really sure how to respond to this. Are you suggesting that this model has relevant information?

[Thought]

I think that it seems likely that the faith is behind this. It's what allowed Kelsier as Preservation to speak to Spook which is a power Preservation shouldn't have, and it's also what allowed Vin to power Elend's Allomancy. Faith allows for connections between people so I'd say it's possible that all the faith from Kelsier's followers is standing in for his Physcial aspect.

First, sorry, haven't read TES yet, so I skipped your comments regarding that.

Second, the problem there is that then shards should gain a degree of sentience if they are believed in deeply by mortals. Certainly possible, but that does seem to eliminate a bit of the need for individuals to hold a shard.

There's a spectrum there, and humans have simply crossed a point which we consider to be thinking.

Possible, but that doesn't address the noted the asymmetry needed for Preservation and Ruin to create people.

You could hypothesize that the two halves use all their energy struggling with each other. Once one is "beating" the other, the Cognition can begin.

Certainly possible, though if so, it seems to add a great deal of complexity. What if Preservation and Endowment had created humans together: would there still have been that conflict? And would this have affected the ability of an unshattered Adonalsium to create sentient creatures?

Not that you need to answer these questions. Just that your explanation here seems to raise a good number of curiosities.

The idea is that the fact that Preservation is more prevalent in humans is irrelevant, at least for the purpose of creating sentience.

Perhaps I am just misremembering the books incorrectly, but I had thought that Sazed made it rather clear that asymmetry was a key component in sentience (or, at least, in making human-like sentience). If so, then that precludes this possibility.

I'm not really sure how to respond to this. Are you suggesting that this model has relevant information?

It was just random information, not directly related to the rest of my response (hence separated by a double break), that still seemed relevant for the conversation. Namely, the tripartite viewpoint is likely the background influence for realmatics. If Sanderson purposely tried to design the cosmere after it, then we could assume that he tried to put a twist on it (your hybrid theory, then, being a twist on both the tripartite and bipartite viewpoints, is more likely). In contrast, if he was not aware of this influence, then it is less likely that he put a twist on it, and so a strict tripartite viewpoint (in which the cognitive aspect of a person is influenced by the other two aspects but still distinct and independent) would be more likely.

And, of course, if there is someone out there who is more familiar with the theology than I am, they might be able to offer further similarities or divergences that would make one or the other interpretation more tenable.

[Windrunner]

First, sorry, haven't read TES yet, so I skipped your comments regarding that.

No problem, it wasn't really all that relevant, just an idle musing on a concept we don't understand well.

Second, the problem there is that then shards should gain a degree of sentience if they are believed in deeply by mortals. Certainly possible, but that does seem to eliminate a bit of the need for individuals to hold a shard.

I guess it might be possible. This kind of gets into a murky territory though. For example, on Roshar, people know about the Shard Honor. But Brandon's said that many of the concepts of "the Almighty" are false. So does that count as worship or not? There's a lot of grey area. It's worth noting that when Spook got the message and when Elend got the power, neither of them really understood or worshiped Preservation. They had faith in people, Vin and Elend.

But then again Wax got power from Harmony. That raises the question about how much the people of Scadrial really know about Harmony's nature. Do they know he was Sazed? How widely have the Words of Founding been distributed? I imagine the parts containing knowledge of Hemalurgy would be redacted by the powers that be, but what about the rest?

Possible, but that doesn't address the noted the asymmetry needed for Preservation and Ruin to create people.

I assume you've seen that I addressed this further down?

Certainly possible, though if so, it seems to add a great deal of complexity. What if Preservation and Endowment had created humans together: would there still have been that conflict? And would this have affected the ability of an unshattered Adonalsium to create sentient creatures?

The conflict is something that we know happens when an Allomancer snaps, so I just speculated a bit on other implications it could have. I imagine if this is true, then one Shard or the other would need to be dominant, but perhaps the conflict would go differently, or not at all.

Not that you need to answer these questions. Just that your explanation here seems to raise a good number of curiosities.

This actually makes me happy. Even if I am ultimately proved wrong at a later date, it'll have gotten some discussion going, raised new questions, and maybe changed our perspectives all a bit.

Perhaps I am just misremembering the books incorrectly, but I had thought that Sazed made it rather clear that asymmetry was a key component in sentience (or, at least, in making human-like sentience). If so, then that precludes this possibility.

I have no memory of Sazed saying that the imbalance was a necessity, simply that Preservation gave more. If you can find a quote that says otherwise, I'll gladly discount this explanation. There's a decent possibility that I have forgotten something, my member title says it all.

[Thought]

I guess it might be possible. This kind of gets into a murky territory though. For example, on Roshar, people know about the Shard Honor. But Brandon's said that many of the concepts of "the Almighty" are false. So does that count as worship or not? There's a lot of grey area. It's worth noting that when Spook got the message and when Elend got the power, neither of them really understood or worshiped Preservation. They had faith in people, Vin and Elend.

Ah, but Suvivorism gets Kelsier rather wrong in many ways, too, so does that eliminate Kelsier's physical aspect, and in turn limit his cognitive aspect in the AoL era?

I assume you've seen that I addressed this further down?

Yup, and hopefully you noted my similar response to your address (namely, that to my memory, Sazed noted that the imbalance was necessary). Alas, that would be in one of the chapter bumps, and my books are currently in storage, so I can't find that at present. But as soon as I can...

[Windrunner]

Also, we don't really know a lot of the theology behind the Church of the Survivor, do we? I seem to remember that most of the things they said were along the same lines as the things he wanted. Even Urteau fell in line with that.

You know all the epigraphs are on the wiki right?

Preservation's desire to create sentient life was what eventually broke the stalemate. In order to give mankind awareness and independent thought, Preservation knew that he would have to give up part of himself—his own soul—to dwell within mankind. This would leave him just a tiny bit weaker than his opposite, Ruin.

That tiny bit seemed inconsequential, compared with their total vast sums of power. However, over aeons, this tiny flaw would allow Ruin to overcome Preservation, thereby bringing an end to the world.

This, then, was their bargain. Preservation got mankind, the only creations that had more Preservation than Ruin in them, rather than a balance. Independent life that could think and feel. In exchange, Ruin was given a promise—and proof—that he could bring an end to all they had created together. It was the pact.

This is the only bit that really deals with the imbalance. I don't see anything in there that specifically says that the imbalance was what cause sentience, although it can be read that way. Preservation had to give up even more power to create sentient life, so there was an imbalance.

[Windrunner]

Sorry for the double post in my own topic, but I wanted to quickly bring to light a bit more info that I had forgotten about.

DARXBANE (17 OCTOBER 2008)

Does Sazed get to see Tindwyl again now that he is a deity?

BRANDON SANDERSON (17 OCTOBER 2008)

Sazed has yet to learn how to touch the distant other side, where all souls go. He is able to see into the Spiritual and Cognitive Realms, and any spirits or souls who remain there, rather than passing on. Generally, you have to be tied to the Physical Realm in specific ways to not pass on. As for where Tindwyl is, I will have to leave this up to you to imagine for now.

Source

So regardless of whether my ideas of what are tying Kelsier to the Physical Realm are true or not, this does prove that there is something Physical that is holding him. This supports my belief that he has a stand-in for a body, so his mind remains.

[Zenith]

Sorry for the double post in my own topic, but I wanted to quickly bring to light a bit more info that I had forgotten about.

So regardless of whether my ideas of what are tying Kelsier to the Physical Realm are true or not, this does prove that there is something Physical that is holding him. This supports my belief that he has a stand-in for a body, so his mind remains.

Doesn't Tensoon or whomever had it last still have his bones?

[Emeralis00]

Doesn't Tensoon or whomever had it last still have his bones?

I don't think bones themselves would be enough to keep someone tied to the physical realm, or pretty much everyone would be tied.

[Zenith]

I don't think bones themselves would be enough to keep someone tied to the physical realm, or pretty much everyone would be tied.

A valid point, but the fact that they have been used (and not gotten rid of) by a kandra may change things.

We don't know enough :/

Either way though, Brandon also mentioned that a person with a strong spirit could interfere with surgebinding on them (much as shardplate could, but likely on a smaller level), is it possible that Kelsier is staying on because he's a sliver (correct? I'm not good with Mistborn stuff.), and is just hanging around through pure force of will.

[Thought]

Also, we don't really know a lot of the theology behind the Church of the Survivor, do we? I seem to remember that most of the things they said were along the same lines as the things he wanted. Even Urteau fell in line with that.

But what he wanted them to believe wasn't reality. That's the point. If belief is sufficient, then shards could easily start their own churches (it seems) in order to gain a cognitive aspect and more power.

You know all the epigraphs are on the wiki right?

I did not, thanks! That, however, wasn't the quote I was thinking of. Perhaps I just imagined it, but I'll be sure to look through the records and see if I can figure it out. Thanks again.

[Observer]

I like this theory, a lot. Still, it makes me wonder along with the rest of you where Kelsier's physical aspect is. Probably not his body, so it's most likely somewhere else entirely. Maybe something metaphoircal even?

[Turos]

Ok, so I'm posting only after reading the first post, but give me a break, reading through it all and managing to remember my original thought for posting is nigh impossible for one such as I. :P/> That said, if this has been discussed, forgive me :(/>

I like this theory! A lot of ideas make the whole Realmatics more sensical to me. (Sensical as opposed to non-sensical :P/> Its a valid word.)

Anyway, my idea is that the 'size' of the physical component of a thing is more likely tied to not how much matter it possesses, but how capable that matter is, specifically in relation to how much cognitive-potential it has or more precisely how cognitive-efficient it is.

Thus a midget and a giant both have roughly the same physical component rating in the terms of this theory, and a greatshell, though enormous, has less than any of the human-like races of Roshar.

Now I'm gonna go back through and read the rest of the posts. :P/>

EDIT:

@Thought

Sanderson's system has a nice basis in theology, namely the tripartite viewpoint. This viewpoint holds that people are comprised of three distinct, independent, and separate parts: the body, soul, and spirit (bipartite holds that spirit and soul are the same). I'm not overly familiar with the system, but to my understanding, "physical, cognitive, and spiritual" would be valid adjectives to describe the three. This is certainly less popular in general, but if I understand correctly, it is particularly common among Mormons. This is by no means proof that realmatics is strictly tripartite in nature, but seems like relevant information.

It was just random information, not directly related to the rest of my response (hence separated by a double break), that still seemed relevant for the conversation. Namely, the tripartite viewpoint is likely the background influence for realmatics. If Sanderson purposely tried to design the cosmere after it, then we could assume that he tried to put a twist on it (your hybrid theory, then, being a twist on both the tripartite and bipartite viewpoints, is more likely). In contrast, if he was not aware of this influence, then it is less likely that he put a twist on it, and so a strict tripartite viewpoint (in which the cognitive aspect of a person is influenced by the other two aspects but still distinct and independent) would be more likely.

And, of course, if there is someone out there who is more familiar with the theology than I am, they might be able to offer further similarities or divergences that would make one or the other interpretation more tenable.

Ah let me explain, as I am also a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (aka Mormon).

The belief-concept you are referencing is this:

We all started as what are known as 'intelligences.'

God added upon those intelligences by giving them each a 'spiritual body'. This allowed us to be further developed, perhaps more intelligent, you might say.

Having been tested in this state, those who proved themselves willing to follow God's plan of progression were or will be eventually given a physical body here on Earth, where we will be tested further to see if we truly are willing to make good moral choices. Having achieved that, we will be allowed to enter into one of three 'realms' of heaven, each better than the last, according to our willingness in life to make those good moral choices.

So yes, in a sense, Realmatics could be derived from this, though the order of progression might not match, being cognitive>cognitive+spiritual>cognitive+spiritual+physical (not quite the same thing, but I guess it fits the Realmatics in this arrangement).

Edited February 24, 2013 by Turos Stoneward

[TalenelStonesiniew]

I'm also a mormon, though I have to admit I haven't practiced the religion in a while. The theory that the opening poster presented makes a lot of sense, however it does seem to place too much emphasis on physicality. In other words a larger person with the access to the same amount of spiritual power would have a larger cognitive component. It seems this is refuted in the case of Vin being stronger than Ham and Kelsier, or at least stronger than they though she should be.

If Sanderson used his religion to develop his realmatic theory, then it is beneficial to understand mormon doctrine in regards to this. Turos Stoneward is right in regards to the general doctrine that mormons follow, however I would like to add my thoughts to this.

First, the founder of the mormon religion stated that there are two eternal things in the universe. The first is matter and the second is intelligence. In other words, both of those things were not created in the sense that is typically understood in the idea of God creating things. They exist outside the realm of creation because they have always been there. A way to explain it is that the intelligence that all humans have has always existed. Thus if you reduce a sentient being down to its most fundamental component, it would be the intelligence, ie the cognitive component.

God then give these intelligences (us) spirits. After a period of time those who were most worthy and agreed to follow God's plan were given a physical body. While matter has always existed according to mormon doctrine, it is the last thing "added" to us as humans. The soul is the combination of all three things, intelligence, spirit, and body. So, IF realmatic theory follows mormon doctrine, then the order of importance or at least seniority would be intelligence (cognitive)> spirit (spiritual)> body (physical). Maybe importance is the incorrect term to use here, because all three components are required for us to enter into heaven but as far as the most ancient characteristic of humans to the most recent, that is the correct order.

How this information validates or invalidates your theory is hard to say, but IF we're going to assume that Sanderson's personal beliefs are the basis for the realmatic theory, then the idea that cognition is merely a result of the spiritual and the physical overlapping - it doesn't jive with the doctrine of the mormon religion. If anything, the spiritual aspect provides a bridge between the cognitive aspect and the physical aspect in the LDS church.

Another tidbit that might be helpful as pertaining to this discussion is that the founder of the mormon faith (Joseph Smith) said that spirit is matter, only a more refined and pure form of matter. A way to state this in modern terms, particularly as pertaining to General Relativity is that spirit is energy, as expressed by Einstein's E=mc^2.

Edited February 24, 2013 by TalenelStonesiniew

[Windrunner]

Hey, with all due respect guys, I'd like to request that this topic doesn't end up a discussion of how Brandon's beliefs reflect on the cosmere's rules. I do have more to this theory that I will post "soon", so I'd prefer we didn't get too off track. Thanks!

[TalenelStonesiniew]

Understandable, I didn't intend to use this forum as a pulpit for beliefs that I don't necessarily believe in. However, I did think it was pertinent to the topic on hand as far as shaping our understanding of Realmatic theory. Afterall, many writers draw on personal beliefs to create the world in which their writings exist. Terry Goodwind is a good example of this.

Edit: Windrunner, if you feel you need to remove my post or you would like me to do it, feel free to do so.

Edited February 24, 2013 by TalenelStonesiniew