Super Weird Szeth Theory

[Patrick Star]

So, we know that Szeth hears voices in his head, specifically the voices of people that he killed.  However, we don't know what causes them.  For quite a long time, I advocated the Yelig-nar theory, but WoB - "Hmm... Szeth has no more of a connection with Yelig-nar than anyone else does." - seems to disprove that.  However, I have a super weird theory that might actually fit with what we know about the magic systems in the Cosmere.

 

Basically, I was thinking that it might be Jezrien's Honorblade that is causing Szeth to hear the voices.  It's a weird idea, definitely.  To look at how that might work, consider Nightblood.

 

Nightblood is, for all intents and purposes, a shardblade made out of endowment splinters (as opposed to Honor splinters), but is partially broken.  He - and Syl, for that matter - exhibits the ability to communicate telepathically over fairly decent distances (not sure about distance for Syl in sprenblade form).  We also know that when he kills somebody, he absorbs their breaths.  That's key.

 

My idea is that the damaging of the oathpact broke, or at least damaged, the 9 herald's honorblades.  Szeth hears the voices of the people that he killed because Jezrien's Honorblade has been absorbing their souls, or at least parts of them.  That's why Szeth hears the voices.

 

I know that a big hole in the theory is that Szeth doesn't have the honorblade anymore.  However, Nightblood can communicate over a fairly large distance, and certain spren and sprenlike creatures can communicate or exert influence over very large areas.  For example, unmade have incredible radii of influence, if Nergaoul and the thrill are any indication.  And bonds with honorblades are less straightforward than typical spren and shardblades, so he might still be partially tied to it, for all we know.

 

What do you guys think?

[hoser]

It seems very creative and anything is possible. 

It is strange that the Honorblades are apparently powerful, but display no apparent sentience.  So far, the Honorblades seem largely uninteractive.  Even Kelek doesn't seem to communicate with his before abandoning it in tWoK.

I liked the screaming being an Odious/Unmade connection.  This theory has a number of steps without apparent support, so I feel skeptical. 

[Patrick Star]

It seems very creative and anything is possible. 

It is strange that the Honorblades are apparently powerful, but display no apparent sentience.  So far, the Honorblades seem largely uninteractive.  Even Kelek doesn't seem to communicate with his before abandoning it in tWoK.

I liked the screaming being an Odious/Unmade connection.  This theory has a number of steps without apparent support, so I feel skeptical. 

 

WoB seems to have debunked Yelig-nar (Brandon may have a strict idea of what a "connection" is), and as of yet, there are no other Odious beings that would produce this effect (that we know of).

 

I was noting an effect that another object (nightblood) that is similar to an honorblade/shardblade produces, and could be a clue.

 

Also, that lack of sentience could actually be the cause of the voices.  Nightblood has a central conciousness.  An honorblade apparently has no such thing.  Instead of fueling that central mind (with how Nightblood eats breaths), the investiture absorbed by Jezrien's honorblade would just... stick around in a garbled, incoherent form.  Instead of one being talking, it's a bunch of random, incoherent parts of other beings all talking at the same time.

[hoser]

WoB seems to have debunked Yelig-nar (Brandon may have a strict idea of what a "connection" is), and as of yet, there are no other Odious beings that would produce this effect (that we know of).

 

I was noting an effect that another object (nightblood) that is similar to an honorblade/shardblade produces, and could be a clue.

 

Also, that lack of sentience could actually be the cause of the voices.  Nightblood has a central conciousness.  An honorblade apparently has no such thing.  Instead of fueling that central mind (with how Nightblood eats breaths), the investiture absorbed by Jezrien's honorblade would just... stick around in a garbled, incoherent form.  Instead of one being talking, it's a bunch of random, incoherent parts of other beings all talking at the same time.

Yeah.  I accept your intrepretation of the WoB.  I was just waxing nostalgic for my imaginings before reality intervened.  My only other guess for the screaming is insanity, which is really no explanation at all. 

 

But does the Honorblade absorb investiture?  I imagine Shardblades sever the connections to the spiritual realm.  The eyes (windows of the soul) are means of the connection and burn out. 

When Nightblood wounds somebody, there is corruption of the body at the wound site.  I get that the corruption could correspond to investiture drain.  

What I missed is that Jezrien's Honorblade operates like Nightblade in this regard.  Is there evidence that I'm ignoring?  If it's purely speculation, then the overall theory seems house-of-cardsish to me.  Possible, but ...

[Patrick Star]

Yeah.  I accept your intrepretation of the WoB.  I was just waxing nostalgic for my imaginings before reality intervened.  My only other guess for the screaming is insanity, which is really no explanation at all. 

 

But does the Honorblade absorb investiture?  I imagine Shardblades sever the connections to the spiritual realm.  The eyes (windows of the soul) are means of the connection and burn out. 

When Nightblood wounds somebody, there is corruption of the body at the wound site.  I get that the corruption could correspond to investiture drain.  

What I missed is that Jezrien's Honorblade operates like Nightblade in this regard.  Is there evidence that I'm ignoring?  If it's purely speculation, then the overall theory seems house-of-cardsish to me.  Possible, but ...

 

Yeah, it's mostly speculation right now.  I do think that this would be a good question to ask Brandon at a signing - something like "is nightblood the only sword we've seen that absorbs investiture?", or "can shardblades or honorblades absorb investiture?".  I'm just trying to go through what other options there are.

[blad3mast3r]

This sounds fairly plausible, but it seems more likely that he is just insane.

[natc]

Wait. . . insanity . . .

Surgebinding and other methods of channeling investiture through the spiritweb (e.g. Allomancy) a crack in the spiritweb for the power to go into is necessary.

Honorblades can grant surgebinder abilities, but more importantly the ability to take in stormlight into your body. Won't it have to (to borrow Mistborn terms) snap you artificially to do that? Could Jezrien's blade be partially responsible for Szeth's instability?

[Patrick Star]

Honorblades can grant surgebinder abilities, but more importantly the ability to take in stormlight into your body. Won't it have to (to borrow Mistborn terms) snap you artificially to do that? Could Jezrien's blade be partially responsible for Szeth's instability?

 

Well, Nightblood does make the people around it get ill and nauseous.  A damaged honorblade being held for so long by a single person could create insanity. That could also be part of a reason that the Stone Shamans act in such a peculiar way

[natc]

Szeth is slightly messed up, as are Heralds, and honorblades are one thing they have in common. As said the Stone Shamans have been a tad weird as well. Kalak says they're getting worse, so I imagine while not quite to the extent of Ash's condition right now they weren't exactly fine before if he brings it up like that.

Maybe something about the blades was keeping them "stable" before and that's now gone?

Assuming the blades are actually busted due to the Oathpact being slightly screwed up this random passing thought actually makes some sense . . . just a bit.

Someone ought to ask Brandon about honorblade surges with relation to the "broken spirit" requirement for self-investing that has been generally prevalent (not counting Breath and the like).

[Delightful]

Am I misunderstanding the OP, or does Szeth take peoples Breaths when he kills them?

[Patrick Star]

Am I misunderstanding the OP, or does Szeth take peoples Breaths when he kills them?

 

No, I'm speculating that Jezrien's Honorblade might be absorbing parts of people's souls, similar to how Nightblood absorbs people's breaths.  Not Szeth.

[galendo]

I figured that Szeth had a broken spren bond.  My theory is that he once had a bond that got snapped at some point like Kaladin's did.  Even after the bond was broken, Kaladin could hear Syl crying occasionally.  It doesn't seem to much of a stretch to me to suppose that if Kaladin could hear his spren crying, Szeth might well hear his spren screaming.

 

Basically, I think that Szeth thinks he's hearing his victims scream, but in actuality he's hearing his spren.

[natc]

I figured that Szeth had a broken spren bond. My theory is that he once had a bond that got snapped at some point like Kaladin's did. Even after the bond was broken, Kaladin could hear Syl crying occasionally. It doesn't seem to much of a stretch to me to suppose that if Kaladin could hear his spren crying, Szeth might well hear his spren screaming.

Basically, I think that Szeth thinks he's hearing his victims scream, but in actuality he's hearing his spren.

If had a bond once then he'd be living proof to the Stone Shamans that surgebinders have returned along with the Desolation. There would be no way to make him Truthless.

Syl stopped screaming rather quickly.

[galendo]

If had a bond once then he'd be living proof to the Stone Shamans that surgebinders have returned along with the Desolation.

Not necessarily.  Kaladin and Shallan both had bonds long before they learned how to draw in Stormlight, much less surgebind.  In Shallan's case, apparently way, way before.  Given Szeth's dedication I can easily see him attracting some sort of spren.

 

 Syl stopped screaming rather quickly.

She only screamed at first, yes, but Kaladin could hear her weeping for quite a while longer.  Plus, I got the impression that Syl was screaming in pain; I imagine Szeth's spren would be screaming in horror.  I'm not sure what sort of spren Szeth would have attracted in the first place, but having your Radiant become the biggest mass murderer alive probably wouldn't fit so well with what it had in mind.

[natc]

Pattern has also been pretty quiet all this time he spent dead. They don't really all make that much sound I guess.

Kaladin has been drawing stormlight unintentionally for a while now if I have been interpreting that flashback of him saving his new recruit properly. Not sure if his bond existed before the Tien incident but I'd wager around then was when he began drawing by accident. Seems traumatizing enough to leave a big hole in his spiritweb.

Shallan could already summon a blade as a young girl, so her abilities were probably rather developed if never really used. I believe Pattern thinks she picks it up quickly because she's actually done all of this before?

If a bond wasn't strong enough to even materialize the spren yet I'm not sure if much will happen. It seems implied that the stronger the bond the more painful it is. And it seems to be agonizing for everyone.

On Szeth, he's been going crazy killing everyone because he thought the law required him to do it. He even caught Nale's attention with that. With such an attitude Highspren is probably more likely, so becoming a legally sanctioned mass murderer likely has little effect.

Edited March 6, 2015 by natc

[hoser]

Pattern has also been pretty quiet all this time he spent dead. They don't really all make that much sound I guess.

Kaladin has been drawing stormlight unintentionally for a while now if I have been interpreting that flashback of him saving his new recruit properly. Not sure if his bond existed before the Tien incident but I'd wager around then was when he began drawing by accident. Seems traumatizing enough to leave a big hole in his spiritweb.

Shallan could already summon a blade as a young girl, so her abilities were probably rather developed if never really used. I believe Pattern thinks she picks it up quickly because she's actually done all of this before?

If a bond wasn't strong enough to even materialize the spren yet I'm not sure if much will happen. It seems implied that the stronger the bond the more painful it is. And it seems to be agonizing for everyone.

On Szeth, he's been going crazy killing everyone because he thought the law required him to do it. He even caught Nale's attention with that. With such an attitude Highspren is probably more likely, so becoming a legally sanctioned mass murderer likely has little effect.

Did Pattern die?  I thought Shallan just rejected the bond and he returned to the Cognitive Realm.

 

Syl talks about being attracted to Kaladin by the gratitude of the men he led.  To me this implies that he was a platoon leader when she started bonding him.  I don't think he could unintentionally draw until she started bonding him.  At other times she seems to imply that it's not so clear-cut. 

 

Pattern seems to say that Shallan created illusions including sound before her mother died and she regressed. 

[natc]

It's been a while since I last read that bit, memory is vague. Wasn't really the main point anyway. She has lightweaved before. Drawing stormlight seems simple to pick up once you're broken and bonded.

[galendo]

Pattern has also been pretty quiet all this time he spent dead. They don't really all make that much sound I guess.

Kaladin has been drawing stormlight unintentionally for a while now if I have been interpreting that flashback of him saving his new recruit properly. Not sure if his bond existed before the Tien incident but I'd wager around then was when he began drawing by accident. Seems traumatizing enough to leave a big hole in his spiritweb.

Shallan could already summon a blade as a young girl, so her abilities were probably rather developed if never really used. I believe Pattern thinks she picks it up quickly because she's actually done all of this before?

If a bond wasn't strong enough to even materialize the spren yet I'm not sure if much will happen. It seems implied that the stronger the bond the more painful it is. And it seems to be agonizing for everyone.

On Szeth, he's been going crazy killing everyone because he thought the law required him to do it. He even caught Nale's attention with that. With such an attitude Highspren is probably more likely, so becoming a legally sanctioned mass murderer likely has little effect.

To address your points:

• Pattern was quiet all the time he spent "dead" (at least, as far as we know).  Syl was less subdued, though still not terribly loud or frequent.  Then again, neither Shallan nor Kaladin were doing terribly un-Radiant-like things in the meantime, while Szeth was going around assassinating people, which violates the First Ideal in so many different ways.  Kaladin might have "killed" Syl, but Szeth kept twisting the knife in the wound.
• I agree with Kaladin and quite possilby Shallan having used Stormlight in minor ways without being aware of it.  Same with Dalinar, for that matter.  My point was that Szeth could have had a bond and still been disbelieved by the Stone Shamans and subsequently been declared Truthless.
• As far as Szeth's bond being too weak, I'm not sure I buy that either.  We have plenty of examples of people not consciously aware that they're bonded to a spren.  And I would think that breaking even just the First Ideal would be enough to "kill" the spren.
• If you're suggesting that Szeth would have attracted a highspren (which I've seen referenced enough on these boards to assume is a Skybreaker spren) because of his adherance to the law, I agree it's quite possible.  But Nalan also says that Szeth seems a bit too emotional for the Skybreakers, so it seems to me quite reasonable that Szeth might have attracted a different spren as well.  And anyway, assassinating people -- breaking the First Ideal, not to mention the laws of whatever land he happened to be in at the time -- is something that I imagine would "kill" even a Skybreaker spren.

[Rade]

It seems that Szeth corresponds well with the Dustbringers, as their qualities are that of Obedience and Bravery, but that his bond might have been ruptured by breaking the First Ideal and killing lots and lots of people. (Oh, and did I mention killing LOTS of people? Not exactly Life before Death.) Secondly, Strength before Weakness--he did not use his strength for the good of others, and he caused the weaknesses of others. You get the idea. He's basically a walking code book of First Ideal Violations. Every time he disobeys the laws of his people (such as cutting through stone), he believes he hears screaming, possibly from the continued breaking of part of the 2cnd Ideal, which would most likely have something to do with "I will obey my commands". There's literally no way out for him, so he is tormented constantly by his spren. Also, it is quite possible that the Stone Shamans have been corrupted by power and there is some custom which changes the power structure when the Desolations occur. They might have thrown him out from pure self-interest. People will be people everywhere. On the subject of the Honorblade/Nightblood thing, Nightblood and Nalan (think that's the Herald's name) might actually help him re-bond with his old spren. If they get him back to obeying more protection and Radiant-ish commands, then it might help heal his bond and reduce his screaming.

Jezrien's Honorblade might have worsened things even if it wasn't the sole cause. It does seem to consume Investiture, as it was granting Szeth Windrunner abilities at the cost of him drawing in Stormlight in much greater amounts than Kaladin required. Personally, I haven't done that much research into the Honorblades, so I do not know if I they allowed the Heralds to draw in Stormlight. If they didn't though, then Szeth would have been continually drawing upon the broken bond with his spren for the ability to use Stormlight, just making things worse.

*Disclaimer: I am not caught up on current theories/exposed theories, so many things in here may be obliterated by such theories. Therefore, if there are any theories like that, can somebody please post a link to them? I'm trying to get caught up on as much as I can, but it would help a lot. Thanks!

[Shlee]

Or to totally derail in another direction - screams are a sign of Odium's influence? The only other screaming I recall hearing is Eshonai's peace voice - exacerbated when she's holding her "comet-like spren" that we still don't know if is the stormspren (not exactly the same description) or some other kind of spren (Willshaper?!).  

 

I think it's an interesting idea that honorblades fill the "cracks" in people - maybe that's why it wasn't a big deal at first, but then as he kept killing the crack kept getting bigger and then the honorblade wasn't enough? I don't think I see any connection between honorblades absorbing souls though. They'd have racked up a heck of a lot of them during desolations, unless we're assuming everything killed by a herald in a desolation is soul-less and that seems a bit of a stretch to me personally, although I suppose you could make arguments either way.

 

Yay speculation!

[Rade]

The only vaguely soul-drinking thing that I can think of is Nightblood, the Honorblade consuming Stormlight might have just been the equivalent of wiggling a spear in the gut of whatever possible spren Szeth might have.

[Patrick Star]

Or to totally derail in another direction - screams are a sign of Odium's influence? The only other screaming I recall hearing is Eshonai's peace voice - exacerbated when she's holding her "comet-like spren" that we still don't know if is the stormspren (not exactly the same description) or some other kind of spren (Willshaper?!).  

 

Eshonai heard HERSELF screaming.  Szeth heard OTHER people screaming.  The only odious being who does that is Yelig Nar, and WoB has debunked that connection (for now, at least).

 

There's no way Szeth had bonded a spren of any kind, he wouldn't have been made truthless.

 

Szeth is in no way a Dustbringer.  Dustbringers are the anti-skybreakers (even more so than the windrunners, I'd say).  They prevent evil.  Adolin killing Sadeas is an action that the Dustbringers would have encouraged (per WoB).  Becoming the instrument of several bloodthirsty tyrants and assassinating random innocents is not.

[natc]

Well, it's not exactly anti-skybreaker of course. Skybreakers aren't evil or something, and will gladly prevent evil if the law demands it.

The fact that they would also likely help said evil along if they were operating entirely under legal pretenses is probably their main flaw, obviously.

[Patrick Star]

Well, it's not exactly anti-skybreaker of course. Skybreakers aren't evil or something, and will gladly prevent evil if the law demands it.

The fact that they would also likely help said evil along if they were operating entirely under legal pretenses is probably their main flaw, obviously.

 

Yeah, it is.  What Adolin did is illegal, Sadeas had not broken the law (unfortunately).  Kaladin trying to punish Amaram is in line with the Skybreakers, as he actually committed murder; he killed his own men.