Who Is Actually A Radiant?

[ctrout13]

I just think Kaladin is one as he said a 4th Oath? Granted, Shallans open up the portal but i feel it was too easy for her to become one.  I don't know much about this special magical realm.

[name_here]

Pretty sure they're all Radiants of varying levels of power. None of them have completed the set of five oaths but they have powers and Shardblades.

[ctrout13]

But the sly and pattern so they arent radiants yet throughout the book even when they have some sort of powers.

[Aoibheann]

I thought Kaladin had only said the 3rd WR oath (of 5).  Don't we have WoB stating Shallan has progressed further than Kaladin?

[ctrout13]

kaladin said a 4th oath right when he almost died something about he will protech people even the people he hates.

[WeiryWriter]

kaladin said a 4th oath right when he almost died something about he will protech people even the people he hates.

 

that is only his third oath.

 

He has sworn:

 

"Life before Death, Strength before Weakness, Journey before Destination" (1st Ideal of the Knights Radiant)

 

"I will protect those who cannot protect themselves" (2nd Ideal of the Windrunners)

 

"I will protect even those I hate so long as it is right" (3rd Ideal of the Windrunners)

 

Brandon has established that Shallan is a step farther that Kaladin as of the end of WoR.

[ctrout13]

How did Brandon established that shallan is a step farther? lol i feel like she had it easy and i feel pattern keep asking her for a truth. Or maybe she did? when she did a flash back with the soul of her mother in the picture? that was a blur, can't really remember what i read.

 

Edit: what about the other characters? are they radiants yet?

Edited March 3, 2015 by WeiryWriter
please do not double post, use the edit feature

[neuxue]

The Lightweavers don't have specific Ideals to speak beyond the first one (life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination), if I recall correctly. So Shallan doesn't have to swear oaths like Kaladin.

 

Shallan also progressed far enough to have a spren-shardblade very early on (we see this in her flashbacks), but due her coping mechanism of blocking out large parts of her memories due to traumatic experience, she has regressed by the time we first meet her. So when she draws Pattern in the start of WoR, she's basically re-establishing a bond she already previously had. 

 

According to WoB, Shallan is one 'step' ahead of Kaladin. We don't have a huge amount in the way of textual evidence of this - by the end of WoR, both can use their spren as shardblades, and Kaladin actually seems to have a better grasp of his two Surges, but presumably there is something else Shallan has/can do...anyone?

 

Edit:
other characters who are (becoming) Radiants: so far Jasnah, Lift, Renarin, Dalinar, and Ym (though he presumably is no longer around).

Edited March 3, 2015 by neuxue

[WeiryWriter]

How did Brandon established that shallan is a step farther? lol i feel like she had it easy and i feel pattern keep asking her for a truth. Or maybe she did? when she did a flash back with the soul of her mother in the picture? that was a blur, can't really remember what i read.

 

Edit: what about the other characters? are they radiants yet?

 

 

Q:  How many oaths can a Radiant swear?

A:  There is an upper-limit/threshold to the number of oaths a Radiant may make. By the end of WoR, Shallan is a step higher than Kaladin.

 

(source)

 

And it really depends on what you mean by "radiants".  Like we don't know at one point somebody transfers from a Radiant-in-training to a full-fledged Knight.  They're all Surgebinders, whether or not they are more we really can't say.  And it is important that different Orders progress in different ways (i.e. not all Orders get their Shardblades when they reach level 3).

[ctrout13]

i was about to say maybe no one are Radiants yet, Because what is the definition of a radiant?

[hoser]

Until we know more, it makes sense to attend to what the spren are saying.  Radiant seems to be a title for a Surgebinder of a certain level, kind of like a journeyman Surgebinder. 

Both Kaladin and Syl think that he was not a Radiant at level 2 and that he became one at level 3. 

Pattern seemed to indicate that Shallan was not a Radiant at level 3 and maybe became one at level 4. 

Jasnah seems to have been using her powers for years and I would be amazed if she were not a Radiant.

Lift seems to be at level 2 and learning her powers. Her spren has not manifested as a blade yet.  She seems to me comparable to Kaladin through most of WoR, so I would guess she is not a Radiant yet. 

Dalinar and Renarin are interesting.  Dalinar seems to be at level 2, but apparently thinks of himself as a Radiant.  Do Bondsmiths become Radiants at level 2?  Renarin seems to have advanced to the point where he had trouble with Shardblades and healed his eyesight, but he seems neither confident nor masterful.  I would guess that he is at level 2 and not a Radiant yet. 

As always, I know nothing. 

[SmurfAquamarineBodies]

As always, I know nothing.

Jon Snow, is that you?

[hoser]

Jon Snow, is that you?

Don't stab me in the back, bro.  Am I dead yet?

[skaa]

On one hand, Jasnah is uncomfortable with calling herself a Knight Radiant and she's been a Surgebinder for several years now. On the other hand, Dalinar doesn't seem to mind calling complete novices like himself and his son Knights Radiant. It's just a label, after all.

 

But I guess at some point they may want to regulate the use of this label once a centralized government system (Urithiru Government 2.0?) has established its rule over the Surgebinders.

[hoser]

On one hand, Jasnah is uncomfortable with calling herself a Knight Radiant and she's been a Surgebinder for several years now. On the other hand, Dalinar doesn't seem to mind calling complete novices like himself and his son Knights Radiant. It's just a label, after all.

 

But I guess at some point they may want to regulate the use of this label once a centralized government system (Urithiru Government 2.0?) has established its rule over the Surgebinders.

You mock. You mock.  But that is the point of this thread, is it not?

[dvoraen]

*snip*

 

Edit:

other characters who are (becoming) Radiants: so far Jasnah, Lift, Renarin, Dalinar, and Ym (though he presumably is no longer around).

And quite possibly Rysn.  Why?

 

Look for those who survive when they should not.  That pattern will be your clue.

 

She fell how far, again?

[natc]

Well, Rysn is a recurring interlude now (along with her pot of stupid grass) so she's probably going to be slightly relevant at least.

Did the island greatshell have any of those arrow spren again? Still decently likely that they are some form of gravityspren right?.

[name_here]

As Jasnah notes at one point, the Knights Radiant were strictly speaking an organization, and it's defunct so none of them are members of it. I would expect that if the organization existed they'd probably count as Knights in training. All of them have started the oaths and none of them have finished. Dalinar has the strongest claim to being the legitimate successor of the leadership, so he's the one who gets to decide the naming convention going forwards.

[hoser]

With all due respect, I find the quoted post strange. 

As Jasnah notes at one point, the Knights Radiant were strictly speaking an organization, and it's defunct so none of them are members of it. I would expect that if the organization existed they'd probably count as Knights in training. All of them have started the oaths and none of them have finished. Dalinar has the strongest claim to being the legitimate successor of the leadership, so he's the one who gets to decide the naming convention going forwards.

Strictly speaking, the organization is no longer defunct if it has an active membership.  Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar seem to consider themselves Radiants.  They have even had a meeting!  Using the circular logic quoted above would mean that no organization could ever be restarted. 

Seriously though,  the original premise of this thread is that there can be new Radiants.  I think the original poster deserves the respect of honoring his implicit definitions.  If, by your idiosyncratic definitions, the thread is pointless, what value is achieved by trying to impose meaninglessness on the thread? 

Using a definition of Radiant that allows new members allows us to explore an interesting question:  at what levels do the different orders become titular Radiants.  Clearly, this happened for Kaladin between level 2 and 3.  His conversations with Dalinar and Moash toward the end of WoR are clear and no other Radiant seems to be disputing the contention.  Nale doesn't even seem to have any interest in finding an excuse to kill him.  It is not as clear what the threshold is for the other Radiants, and so, an interesting question (for some of us, anyway). 

[Eilemelie]

With all due respect, I find the quoted post strange. 

Strictly speaking, the organization is no longer defunct if it has an active membership.  Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar seem to consider themselves Radiants.  They have even had a meeting!  Using the circular logic quoted above would mean that no organization could ever be restarted. 

Seriously though,  the original premise of this thread is that there can be new Radiants.  I think the original poster deserves the respect of honoring his implicit definitions.  If, by your idiosyncratic definitions, the thread is pointless, what value is achieved by trying to impose meaninglessness on the thread? 

Using a definition of Radiant that allows new members allows us to explore an interesting question:  at what levels do the different orders become titular Radiants.  Clearly, this happened for Kaladin between level 2 and 3.  His conversations with Dalinar and Moash toward the end of WoR are clear and no other Radiant seems to be disputing the contention.  Nale doesn't even seem to have any interest in finding an excuse to kill him.  It is not as clear what the threshold is for the other Radiants, and so, an interesting question (for some of us, anyway).

I think I might have found a reason for Jasnah to not have considered herself a member of the organisation of the Knights Radiants. For almost all of the time between her bonding Ivory and where we currently stand, she has not known of the existence of another person with a Nahel bond. Remember, there's a very short amount of time between her getting to know of Shallan's bond and her "dying". If no actions were taken then to refound the Knights Radiant there would be no way of her considrring herself one even at the epilogue - one person does not an organisation make. However,just because Jasnah considers Knight Radiant = member of an existing organisation there is not enough reason to think that everyone else would make the same equation. These are individuals, and they don't live in each others heads like we do (well... not each others, just theirs). We have to take that into consideration, just because one person has this defenition of a Knight Radiant does not mean everyone does.

Now if only we could live inside Brandon's head...

[natc]

Really, a surgebinder is a surgebinder. The Knights Radiant are an organization, a man-made construct intended to keep the surgebinders disciplined and prepared for the desolations. Even if you refound them a surgebinder is only a Radiant if they decide to be, IMO. It's not like they asked for powers and to have the fate of the world thrust into their care.

[dvoraen]

Really, a surgebinder is a surgebinder. The Knights Radiant are an organization, a man-made construct intended to keep the surgebinders disciplined and prepared for the desolations. Even if you refound them a surgebinder is only a Radiant if they decide to be, IMO. It's not like they asked for powers and to have the fate of the world thrust into their care.

Yes, the Knights are a construct, but at the same time those powers wouldn't fully develop (now) on account of the restrictions that were placed on the spren, in requiring their human to mentally develop along certain lines.  In other words, to speak of one is to speak of the other on account of those now-required Words.

[jefftucker0525]

I think it is pretty obvious, imo, when a surgebinder becomes a Knight Radiant. Its when they have said all their Oaths. Also, KR in the past had a Shardblade, Shardplate, and (i know someones going to ask but im not going to bother to find the WoB, its out there, if you care enough you can find it) a Ryshadium. So when they have all of that and have said their Oaths, they're KR.

[hoser]

I think it is pretty obvious, imo, when a surgebinder becomes a Knight Radiant. Its when they have said all their Oaths. Also, KR in the past had a Shardblade, Shardplate, and (i know someones going to ask but im not going to bother to find the WoB, its out there, if you care enough you can find it) a Ryshadium. So when they have all of that and have said their Oaths, they're KR.

So even though:

• Syl and Kaladin consider Kaladin a Radiant at oath level 3
• Pattern pushed Shallan to level 4 because another Radiant was needed.
• Dalinar at level 2 and Shallan at level 4 addressed each other as "Radiant"

None of them are Radiants. 

 

Further, all Radiants had Blades, Plate and Ryshadium. 

 

Is an implication of this that Dalinar will never be a Radiant, because his spren is unwilling to be a Shardblade for him?

 

Is the following quote from Brandon relevant to this part of the discussion?

 

Interview: Oct 1st, 2013

Steelheart Signing Report - Argent (Paraphrased)

Question

Did all orders of Knights Radiants use Shardplate?

Brandon Sanderson

It was available to all of them, and they could (all) use it. Many Knights (not Orders) chose not to. There were Knights who were not soldiers and had not interest in wearing Shardplate.

 

Edited March 10, 2015 by hoser

[jefftucker0525]

this is just my opinion. Obviously Dalinar will not have a Shardblade, but I dont consider any of the characters thus far to be KR. I see that I came off in a way that seems close minded or wrong to some people, but its just how I see things.