Stone Worship

[Ted aka WinespringBrother]

WOK Prologue pg 23 That was profane.  Stone was not to be trod upon.

WOK Prologue pg 25 And yet here Szeth stood, Truthless, profanely walking on stones used for building.

WOK Chapter 58 pg 818 Couldn't I have just taken the simple, easy, and common route to the holy city?

WOR Chapter 47 pg 549: Urithiru was the connection to all nations, she read from the Shin writer's work. And at times, our only path to the outside world, with its stones unhallowed.

WOR Interlude 10 pg 708 If he had not been bound to an Oathstone, if he had been another man entirely, he would have stayed here.  The only place in the East where the stones were not cursed, where walking on them was allowed.  This place was holy.

So, the Shin scholar Ali-daughter-Hasweth considers the stones of Urithiru to be unhallowed, or in other words to be cursed, profane or unholy, the same as any other stones that are unsafe to walk upon.  Yet, Szeth considers the same stones to be holy.  Why do they have this profound difference of opinion over such an important matter?

1. Does Szeth, who has visited Urithiru, have some knowledge that Ali didn't?
2. Are there different sects of Stone Shamanism, that have different views regarding the stones of Urithiru?
3. Does Szeth being truthless change his views of the stones of Urithiru (seeing as how he still believes that walking on stone in other places to be wrong)?
4. Has the stance on the stones of Urithiru changed in the intervening time between when Ali wrote, and when Szeth went to Urithiru?
5. Were Ali's words altered in translation, by accident or intentionally?

[kari-no-sugata]

I read it that it's the outside world that has unhallowed stones not Urithiru - that Urithiru is the "path" to the "outside world" and not actually part of  the "outside world".

[Bort]

Unhallowed does not mean cursed, but rather they were never blessed. I actually think this has something to do with Cultivation.

[Ted aka WinespringBrother]

I read it that it's the outside world that has unhallowed stones not Urithiru - that Urithiru is the "path" to the "outside world" and not actually part of  the "outside world".

Good point.  That never occurred to me.  When I read that passage, to me, the "outside world" referred to anything outside Shinovar.

 

Unhallowed does not mean cursed, but rather they were never blessed. I actually think this has something to do with Cultivation.

It still means unholy, in either regard. So do you feel that there is a means of blessing stone so that it can be walked up by the Shin?  I thought they already considered stone to be holy.

[natc]

I second Urithiru not being considered "outside". It's naturally isolated while connected to every major region with the oathgates, and the Shin themselves clearly respect something about surgebinders to a degree if they've been keeping honorblades. Perhaps moreso the Heralds than the Radiants but the holy-ish connection is there.

Edited March 2, 2015 by natc

[hoser]

Great question.

Good point.  ...

It still means unholy, in either regard. So do you feel that there is a means of blessing stone so that it can be walked up by the Shin?  I thought they already considered stone to be holy.

I guess the stone at Urithiru could be sanctified by the Radiants or the Heralds.  Or maybe the stones at Urithiru that are walked on are Soulcast.  The prohibition on walking on stone might have to do with the ancestor spirits residing in the stone.  Soulcast stone might not get spirits for some reason.  

[Savanorn]

Actually 'unhallowed' can and does mean either made unholy or simply not holy to begin with. In this case, I believe it to be the second while you are clearly taking it to be the first. 

 

I second the opinions of most of the others here, just like how Shin will trade for metal that has been soulcast and not mined, they probably don't have a problem with stone that has been soulcast.  

 

It is also worth mentioning that Szeth clearly thinks the city is holy, but not necessarily the stone. 

Edited March 2, 2015 by Savanorn

[Lirins hand]

Unhallowed is also "unblessed".  So to me both quotes are saying the same thing:  You can not tread on holy/blessed ground (rock).  Since the rock of Urithuru is not blessed, Szeth CAN walk on it, the only place in the world where he can do so without being profane.  

 

There are several examples of that in our religions as well, where the holy/blessed place/item is not to be touched.

 

But Ali is basically saying that their Oathgate can be their only way out of Shin at times.  So at times, Shinovar is entirely surrounded by exposed rock.  yet the country has two coastlines where they could conceivably launch ships.   Can the Shin walk on crem?  How much crem is enough of a crust?  How deep does dirt have to be for them to walk on it?  Is gravel still rock (at which point does a rock's size become soil and not holy?)

[Ted aka WinespringBrother]

Actually 'unhallowed' can and does mean either made unholy or simply not holy to begin with. In this case, I believe it to be the second while you are clearly taking it to be the first. 

 

I second the opinions of most of the others here, just like how Shin will trade for metal that has been soulcast and not mined, they probably don't have a problem with stone that has been soulcast.  

 

It is also worth mentioning that Szeth clearly thinks the city is holy, but not necessarily the stone. 

Actually, Szeth does think of the stones as "not cursed" which is what makes Urithiru unique in the East:

WOR Interlude 10 pg 708 If he had not been bound to an Oathstone, if he had been another man entirely, he would have stayed here.  The only place in the East where the stones were not cursed, where walking on them was allowed.  This place was holy.

 

But soulcast stone isn't exactly unique.  Soulcasting while being a discipline of the lost Radiants is not in and of itself a lost art, as we can see from the construction of the Alethi Warcamp.  It seems clear that at least all the barracks in Dalinar's area are made of soulcast stone (due to their uniformity of construction, and being made to withstand highstorms), and likely other parts of the camp as well, not to mention buildings in other nations/cities.  So Urithiru must have something more unique in its construction that makes its stones safe to trod upon for the Shin.

 

Unhallowed is also "unblessed".  So to me both quotes are saying the same thing:  You can not tread on holy/blessed ground (rock).  Since the rock of Urithuru is not blessed, Szeth CAN walk on it, the only place in the world where he can do so without being profane.  

 

There are several examples of that in our religions as well, where the holy/blessed place/item is not to be touched.

 

But Ali is basically saying that their Oathgate can be their only way out of Shin at times.  So at times, Shinovar is entirely surrounded by exposed rock.  yet the country has two coastlines where they could conceivably launch ships.   Can the Shin walk on crem?  How much crem is enough of a crust?  How deep does dirt have to be for them to walk on it?  Is gravel still rock (at which point does a rock's size become soil and not holy?)

This is where my confusion comes in.  Does Ali's quote refer to Urithiru having unhallowed stones?  And if so, why does Szeth directly contradict that by thinking the stones are holy/uncursed?

 

ETA: grammar

Edited March 2, 2015 by Segren

[CHOUTAGOD]

BEHOLD!!!!!! THE GEOLOGIST'S DREAM!!!!!!

[hoser]

+1 for actually looking up quotes!

Actually, Szeth does think of the stones as "not cursed" which is what makes Urithiru unique in the East:

WOR Interlude 10 pg 708 If he had not been bound to an Oathstone, if he had been another man entirely, he would have stayed here.  The only place in the East where the stones were not cursed, where walking on them was allowed.  This place was holy.

 

But soulcast stone isn't exactly unique.  Soulcasting while being a discipline of the lost Radiants is not in and of itself a lost art, as we can see from the construction of the Alethi Warcamp.  It seems clear that at least all the barracks in Dalinar's area are made of soulcast stone (due to their uniformity of construction, and being made to withstand highstorms), and likely other parts of the camp as well, not to mention buildings in other nations/cities.  So Urithiru must have something more unique in its construction that makes its stones safe to trod upon for the Shin.

 

This is where my confusion comes in.  Does Ali's quote refer to Urithiru having unhallowed stones?  And if so, why does Szeth directly contradict that by thinking the stones are holy/uncursed?

 

ETA: grammar

What happened to the stones in the East that they are actually and actively cursed? Or are all stones cursed unless they are blessed somehow?

 

The Shin revere Heralds, the Sun, maybe Cultivation, maybe Radiants. 

 

Are the stones cursed by Odium somehow?  By being walked on by the stonewalkers? The bodies of the Listeners?  No answer seems clearly correct to me. 

Edited March 2, 2015 by hoser

[Kelek's Breath]

What happened to the stones in the East that they are actually and actively cursed? Or are all stones cursed unless they are blessed somehow?

 

The Shin revere Heralds, the Sun, maybe Cultivation, maybe Radiants. 

 

Are the stones cursed by Odium somehow?  By being walked on by the stonewalkers? The bodies of the Listeners?  No answer seems clearly correct to me. 

 

I think you are on the right track. Both Szeth and Ali are right about the stones. Szeth calls stones both sacred and cursed. So, I think it is location that determines whether they are or aren't.

 

 

WoR, pg709 Hardcover, Interlude 10. This is 4 paragraphs after Szeth describes stones in Urithiru as holy).

Things were different in these cursed lands of the stonewalkers. These hateful lands.

These lands flowing with blood, death and screams....

 

So, yes, the stonewalkers are doing something profane by walking on the holy stone, but stone in the east is cursed because of it's location and what happens on it, not just by being walked on it. I think it's the killing and hate that makes the stone cursed.

And Urithiru might be holy because blood cannot or has not been spilled there (Adolin's actions now may open the door to Odium to influence Urithiru)?

Edited March 3, 2015 by Kelek's Breath

[Patrick Star]

Okay guys, here's why the Shin are so upset about people disrespecting stones.

 

You see, rocks (and by extension, stones) were used by the radiant orders as transportation, and also made effective war machines during desolations.

 

[hoser]

I think ...

And Urithiru might be holy because blood cannot or has not been spilled there (Adolin's actions now may open the door to Odium to influence Urithiru)?

Szeth can definitely hear the screaming (which I believe to be an Odious influence) when at Urithiru, so I think Odium had an influence there before Adolin's activities.  I would actually argue that there was Odious influence in the final conversation between Adolin and Sadeas. 

[C1-10P (Chopper)]

Just a little input but could the cursed stone come from the Recreance and the fact that when the Radiants abandoned their duty they pierced the stones with their blades as they left them behind.  Didn't the Heralds embed their blades into stone as well when the abandoned the Oathpact at the beginning of WoK?

[Moogle]

Stones being hallowed/unhallowed is a cultural thing for the Shin.
 

AhoyMatey
Why does Urithiru not have hallowed stones?

Brandon Sanderson
That'll be answered eventually. It's cultural, not magical.
(source)

[laxrulz777]

Just a little input but could the cursed stone come from the Recreance and the fact that when the Radiants abandoned their duty they pierced the stones with their blades as they left them behind.  Didn't the Heralds embed their blades into stone as well when the abandoned the Oathpact at the beginning of WoK?

Might the Shin have a better understanding of the Oathpact maybe? Afterall, they kept the swords. It's not a stretch to say that they realized which Herald stayed behind. Taln is the Herald associated with Stone. Maybe they worship stone as a way to show reverence / respect for Taln?