Metals And Mists: Questions On Allomantic Fundamentals

[Moogle]

EDIT: Answered by WoB.

 

---

 

(Some old discussion on this here. Weiry recently chatted with me, and I remained unsatisfied with the ideas he presented.)
 
The Question: Allomancy can be powered through the mists or by burning metals. Why both?
 
The Problem: Metals serve to act as the Aons in AonDor by WoB. The problem is, this is confusing because other WoBs claim that the body itself is what filters the powers, and if the metals are modulating the power then you should need metals to produce Allomantic effects - but you don't need metals by WoB. You can power Allomancy directly without them with the mists (and with things like Breath/Stormlight, though you need an adapter).

 

Both of these models could be true - the metals serve to modulate the power, and you've also got a backup system in your Spiritweb which can direct non-modulated power. But why would this be true? Why would there be a backup system like that?
 
Here is a gigantic list of WoBs:

Body Filters It, Not the Metal WoBs
Alloy's Ars Arcanum:
Allomancy is the most common of the three. It is end-positive, according to my terminology, meaning that the practitioner draws in power from an external source. The body then filters it into various forms. (The actual outlet of the power is not chosen by the practitioner, but instead is hardwritten into their Spiritweb.) The key to drawing this power comes in the form of various types of metals, with specific compositions being required. Though the metal is consumed in the process, the power itself doesn’t actually come from the metal. The metal is a catalyst, you might say, that begins an Investiture and keeps it running.
 

Kaimipono (16 October 2008)
Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies?

Brandon Sanderson (17 October 2008)
The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.
(source)

 
Annotations:

First, to these forces, energy and mass are the same thing. So, their power can take physical shape—as Preservation’s did in the bead of metal Elend ate. Second, there is a bit of Preservation inside of all the people—and it’s this that allows the people to perform Allomancy. It needs to be awakened and stirred to be of use, but when it is, a proper metal can draw forth more of Preservation’s power. It’s like the metal attunes the bit within the person, allowing it to act as a catalyst to grab more power.
Allomancy is not fueled by metal; it is fueled by Preservation. The metal is the means by which a person can access that fuel, however. If there were another way to access it, then the metal wouldn’t be needed.
(source)

 

---

 
Metal Filters It, Not the Body WoBs

Mistborn Questions:

ANDREW THE GREAT
What would happen if a person were to burn a metal that was Feruchemically charged using Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)
The metal used in Allomancy is like a key or a doorway to the power that Allomancy actually uses. The metal acts as a filter, much as the Aons in Elantris do, to determine what the power actually does. However, if the metal is Feruchemically charged, then it will basically become a super-burst of Feruchemical power with no Allomantic effect. The Feruchemical charge acts as a filter as well as the metal, and changes what the power does. in this case, say you were burning steel, you would just be massively speedy for a second, and wouldn't actually have the ability to push on anything Allomantically. Hope that answered the question. I get the concept, so if you need me to explain it differently, let me know and i'll try. Oh, the other thing I forgot is that this concept only works if it's a metal that you charged yourself. If it's a metal someone else charged, it would just work like regular Allomancy, and the Feruchemical charge would just cease to exist.
(source)

 

Open The Fridge
Ok, last question. It was really difficult coming up with three questions that haven’t been asked already...

Brandon Sanderson
OK... you’re not going to ask me the “what would you ask me” question?

Open The Fridge
Not quite...

Brandon Sanderson
OK good, because I hate that one! (laughs)

Open The Fridge
My question is if there’s anything that you’ve never been asked that you would like to talk about?

Brandon Sanderson
Oooooh, ok. Hm. That one is so hard! Every time people ask me something like this... What have I never been asked that people should be asking, is basically what the question is? Something that the fans have just missed... They pick up on so much, that it’s hard... I do wonder if, you know… all the magic systems [in my books] are connected and work on some basic fundamental principles, and a lot of people haven’t been asking questions about this. One thing I did get a question on today, and I’ll just talk about this one... they didn’t ask the right question, but I nudged them the right way, is understanding that tie between Aondor [the magic system from Elantris] and allomancy [Mistborn’s magic system].

People ask about getting the power from metals and things, but that’s not actually how it works. The power’s not coming from metal. I talked a little about this before, but you are drawing power from some source, and the metal is actually just a gateway. It’s actually the molecular structure of the metal… what’s going on there, the pattern, the resonance of that metal works in the same way as an Aon does in Elantris. It filters the power. So it is just a sign of “this is what power this energy is going to be shaped into and give you.” When you understand that, compounding [in Alloy of Law] makes much more sense.

Compounding is where you are able to kind of draw in more power than you should with feruchemy. What’s going on there is you’re actually charging a piece of metal, and then you are burning that metal as a feruchemical charge. What is happening is that the feruchemical charge overwrites the allomantic charge, and so you actually fuel feruchemy with allomancy, is what you are doing. Then if you just get out another piece of metal and store it in, since you’re not drawing the power from yourself, you’re cheating the system, you’re short-circuiting the system a little bit. So you can actually use the power that usually fuels allomancy, to fuel feruchemy, which you can then store in a metalmind, and basically build up these huge reservoirs of it. So what’s going on there is… imagine there’s like, an imprint, a wavelength, so to speak. A beat for an allomantic thing, that when you burn a metal, it says “ok, this is what power we give.” When it’s got that charge, it changes that beat and says, “now we get this power.” And you access a set of feruchemical power. That’s why compounding is so powerful.
(source)

 

Question
How does compounding work in Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson
I can explain this better in person because I know things that the characters in the book don’t. So, they haven’t worked a lot of this out. All the magic systems in my work are linked because the books all take place in the same universe. In Elantris, magic works by drawing symbols in the air. What actually happens is that when they draw a symbol, energy passes through it from another place (which is my get-out for the laws of thermodynamics) and the effect of that energy is moderated by the symbol. In one case it may become light, in another it may become fire. In Mistborn, the metals have a similar effect. The magic is not coming from the metal (even if some characters think it is). It is being drawn from the same place and moderated by the metal.

In the case of Feruchemy, no energy is being drawn from this other place. So, you spend a week sick and store up the ability to heal. It’s a balanced system, basically obeying the laws of thermodynamics. So, while it’s not real, it’s still rational.

In compounding, when you have the power of both Allomancy and Feruchemy, you draw power from the other place through the metal and it recognizes the power that is already stored—"Oh, this is healing, I know how to do that”—and so you get the power of Feruchemy but boosted by energy from the other place. This is how the Lord Ruler achieved immortality.
(source)

 
Misc WoBs

Kaimipono (16 October 2008)
Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies?

Brandon Sanderson (17 October 2008)
The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.

Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers.  The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.)

So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive.
(source)

Please don't skip these WoBs, or skim them - read them and try to figure out how these things could both be true. Here's my problems for both models:
 
The Metal Acts as a Filter like an Aon:
Okay, if the Investiture is "modulated" by the metal, then why can the mists provide a similar power? Are they creating metals in your stomach? If so, does powering Allomancy with other Investitures mean you need to filter them through a metal since they're unlikely to create metals on their own?

 

This model makes sense. It fits very well with AonDor, with how the specific shapes/resonance of your molecular structure can shape Investiture. Further supporting it is the idea of mechanical Allomancy, that you can get Allomantic effects without a human and purely through technology.

 

The Body Acts as a Filter

Okay, if the Ars Arcanum is right here, how is Compounding supposed to work? The trick is that the metal is modulating things, and you can change how the metal modulates by putting a Feruchemical charge. If your body is what is doing things, though, this shouldn't matter.

 

And this model makes sense, too - you've got yourself a conduit you can force Investiture through in your Spiritweb. This explains why Vin can feel her metal 'reserves' burst alight when she takes in the mists - there's well channeled grooves through her Spiritweb that the Investiture can be directed through. It is 'hardwired' in her Spiritweb, like the Ars Arcanum says.

 

---

 

A major consequence of the metals-as-Aons model is that is that Elantrians should be able to perform AonDor without drawing symbols in the air, simply by obtaining some gaseous Dor. I don't think they can, though. I would like any presented theories and ideas to explain why or why not Elantrians can use gaseous Dor without Aons to do AonDor.

 

Ultimately, this is probably a question for Brandon, but I hope someone can convince me on how this is supposed to work so there's no need to go crazy before someone asks him.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Moogle

[Kurkistan]

To add to your personal hell delight, if I recall correctly someone asked a question about the mists fueling Allomancy in Chicago. I'm not 100% on that recollection, though, so don't quote me on it/get really mad if you listen to 4 hours of audio and then don't hear it.

[Moogle]

To add to your personal hell delight, if I recall correctly someone asked a question about the mists fueling Allomancy in Chicago. I'm not 100% on that recollection, though, so don't quote me on it/get really mad if you listen to 4 hours of audio and then don't hear it.

 

You are evil. I'll turn it on.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Moogle

[Kurkistan]

I doubt you'll believe me, but I promise I'm not trolling here. I have a vague recollection of such a question being asked, but I'm honestly unsure if it actually was, and can't pin down the context as I think more on it. It really doesn't help that I was ill and sleep-deprived at the signing, I'll admit. :/

Edited February 28, 2015 by Kurkistan

[Moogle]

No, no, I believe you're not trying to troll. I'm just saying you're evil because now I am going to sit through four hours of this.

 

(In truth, I'm using Weiry's pre-timestamped document and just looking at the interesting stuff, but same difference!)

[Shattered]

There doesn't seem to be a gap. Metals, existing in rigid form, allow for a single power to be used. The Mist is, of course, gaseous, which is far more potent and activates all Allomantic abilities at once.

[Curiosity]

Uh, I don't have time to comment much right now, but I would like to note that Vin is unique in that she can use the Mists, which may have implications for how we understand the system. Not everyone can use the Mists...

[Moogle]

There doesn't seem to be a gap. Metals, existing in rigid form, allow for a single power to be used. The Mist is, of course, gaseous, which is far more potent and activates all Allomantic abilities at once.

 

But why does it activate all the Allomantic abilities at once?

 

The way Brandon's phrased it is that the specific molecular shape, the way the atoms are arranged and so on in the alloys, acts exactly like a shape does in AonDor. In AonDor, you draw a shape, and this shape modulates what the Dor does as it passes from wherever it is into the Physical.

 

The mist doesn't have that molecular structure. It's a gas. So if the molecular structure is what shapes the Investiture, why should the mists be able to create the same effect?

 

---

 

Having listened to the Chicago signing, I wasn't able to find any obvious questions relating to it, but I admit I only went through the entire Extra bit and then the signing line questions that Weiry marked down.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Moogle

[Kurkistan]

Sorry if I misled you then. I wouldn't think that Weiry would miss such a question, though, so I guess I misremembered.

-Unless Weiry dismissed the answer as a simple rehashing of known knowledge when he was listening to the recording, not realizing its import... 

---Okay, now I am trolling a bit. But only a bit... 

[controlled_slide]

I'll give this a shot. So, my understanding would be that the metals take spiritual power (investiture from the shard) and filter it through the cognitive (the metal's elemental structure; how the metal sees itself) to create a physical effect (or mental I suppose, but anyway the effect of the metal you're burning.)

 

So, the mists being pure investiture, they don't need to go through a metal filter to decide the power - the person "burning" the mists chooses which power to use. If you don't have access to pure investiture, you need to have the ability written on your spiritweb and a specific filter, but if you have the mists, you act as your own cognitive filter.

[Ascendant Warrior]

So I thought of an interesting visual. Imagine this: Snapping creates a conduit, a circular tube if you will, that allows you to channel the power of Preservation. Now imagine the metals as filters that can be placed over the tube, each metal having its own specific pattern, like the Aons. It is the specific pattern of the power coming through the filter that decides what power is being used. Mistings only have one specific filter, but Mistborn have all of them at their choosing.

 

Now, to the question of the Mists. Imagine that using the Mists burns through you more conduits, but this time instead of being circular, they are in the specific patterns for each metal. The more you draw, the more permanent these patterned conduits become.

 

I'm quite rough on theories of Realmatics, so I'll refrain from trying to draw parallels, but this seems to make sense.

[Meg]

@Moogle:

 

Bear with me, if I'm totally wrong. This could be on the one hand because I've not yet read Alloy of Law and on the other hand because I might have misunderstood your problem.

 

I see one great difference between a Misting or a *normal* Mistborn and Vin. IIRC only she used the mists directly. And only Vin used the Well of Ascension! Though she's 'only' a Sliver, she surely has the best connection to the power of creation of all the people around her (since The Lord Ruler was dead). Thus I think she could draw directly on the mists (with all the side effects).

 

When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy.

source

 

 

edit: deleting br-commands and adding quote

Edited March 1, 2015 by Meg

[Oudeis]

To my knowledge, there hasn't been a case of the Mists powering allomancy that didn't involve direct shardic intervention. It's not like any Thug can just step outside, breath in some mist, and start burning.

[Moogle]

Just to address the topics of confusion:

 

Vin may have been the only person to draw on the mists. That does not change my fundamental question of how she was able to use them to power Allomancy, as in "how does this work at a deep level?". I'm not asking why she alone was able to take in the mists, I'm asking how she was able to use the mists to do what she did.

 

There are clear parallels between her and someone taking in Stormlight. Here's one example:

 

---

 

Mists

Vin gasped, drawing in breath—a breath that sucked in the mists. She felt suddenly warm, the mists surging within her, lending her their strength. Her entire body burned like metal, and the pain disappeared in a flash.
...

She felt as if the bleeding sun itself blazed within her, running molten through her veins.
...

An Inquisitor groaned beneath; she reached for him, and realized that her hand was leaking mist. It didn’t just swirl around her, it came from her, smoking forth from the pores in her skin.

 

Stormlight

Szeth breathed in deeply, drawing forth the Stormlight. It streamed into him, siphoned from the twin sapphire lamps on the walls, sucked in as if by his deep inhalation.

...

Szeth could feel the Light’s warmth, its fury, like a tempest that had been injected directly into his veins.

...

They could see that he was leaking Stormlight, wisps of it curling from his skin like luminescent smoke.

 

---

 

This is perhaps a too-obvious point to make, but I want to make it clear: taking in the mists and taking in Stormlight are described utterly the same. The effects are the same, to it leaking from their skin, to it coming in by them taking a deep breath.

 

Perhaps it is too hasty to say they operate on the exact same fundamentals, but I'm willing to say as much. I am not satisfied with raising my hands in the air and saying "well it's direct Shardic intervention, obviously she can power Allomancy with the mists".  This isn't an explanation. Surgebinders do the same thing, and no one's proposing its Shardic intervention there. Taking in the mist is rare for Allomancers, but it is possible in principle. The difference with Surgebinders is that they can take it much more easily, perhaps due to a strong connection with Splinters as some have speculated. It's irrelevant.

 

Why is Vin limited to just Allomancy? Why can she not power Feruchemy as well, if it's direct Shardic intervention? Clearly she is limited in some capacity, and Allomancy is in some way channeled through the body, the spirit itself.

 

But if this is true, why has Brandon described metals as acting like Aons? Why should they need to be like Aons, when it is the body/spirit doing the work with the mists? Are the metals doing any work? And if they are, why is there a separate system on her soul also capable of doing the exact same work? This is inelegant, this is not what I would expect.

 

Take a normal gun: you put in a bullet, and then the bullet is fired when you pull the trigger due to some explosive materials in the bullet. This is regular Allomancy. Now expand the gun: there's a separate hole for bullets which are propelled via magnets, and they come out of a different barrel when you pull a second trigger. This is using the mists to do Allomancy. It does the same thing (fire a bullet), but working on different principles.

 

You would not expect the gun to have two different mechanisms for doing the same thing. Nobody would design a gun that way, and it certainly wouldn't evolve naturally except by the most ridiculous of chances. It's wasteful, it's not simple to have multiple mechanisms do the same thing. Shovels do not have two ends with a blade. Swords have one pointy end, not two (unless you're Darth Maul). Allomancy working this way is odd. This makes me think that these two methods, the mists and the metals, operate using one mechanism, and I am asking for models where using the mists vs using the metals are not separate systems, but are instead subsystems of one overarching system.

 

I want someone to take my double-barreled gun, which is in truth two guns taped together, and turn it into a gun with one barrel. I want a unifying theory of physics, not a theory for gravity at the quantum level and a theory for gravity at the macroscopic level. I want to know how Allomancy works.

 

Here is the best model I have: Allomancy has two parts: a power-grabbing phase, wherein you use metals to draw forth power, and then a secondary phase where the drawn power is used by the soul to generate an effect. You can bypass the first phase and just provide power to the end-system via the mists.

 

This is very cool and elegant, except it's blatantly contradicted by WoBs which say the metals don't just draw power, the metals filter the power and cause the effect just like Aons.

 

---

 

Thank you for the answers everyone, though I am as confused as ever. The deep mechanical questions have not been resolved for me, I am afraid. The people who've taken stabs at such a theory so far have been skaa (see previously linked thread in OP), Weiry (in IRC), and controlled_slide, and I appreciate the efforts. I'm not satisfied with the models presented for a variety of reasons, but I'm not really interested in arguing each (they should all get their own threads). I'm in the idea-gathering phase, and the pruning phase can be done later.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Moogle

[Shaggai]

My idea on this has a few parts.

 

First, the mists. We've only ever seen a Mistborn use them, and only on a few occasions. We don't know what would happen if a Misting or Feruchemist used them, or even the extent of a Mistborn's powers using them. For all we know, the mists only manifested as Allomancy because that's what Vin was accustomed to using. It's possible that she could have used them for entirely different purposes, if she had tried to use other powers. In fact, once she became Preservation entire, she did use Preservation's power in non-Allomantic ways.

 

Second, the metals. If the above is true, this would explain the filtering effects of the metals. Pure Preservation is potentially unlimited, so the metals act to specify how the power is to be interpreted. The spiritweb only cares about which metal it is, which is why Feruchemical charges can overwrite the normal power of the metal.

[controlled_slide]

Moogle, I think I see your difficulty. But I wouldn't say that metals and mists are 2 ways of doing the same thing as in your gun analogy. Rather, I would say that when one uses metals, one draws the investiture in, and now has filtered investiture. So if one uses iron, one now has a bunch of investiture inside, but it can only be used to pull on metals. We've seen this before on Roshar, where certain colored gems can be used to Soulcast certain things. That seems to be another example of what I would term filtered investiture.

 

Mists on the other hand are pure investiture - although it's probably also filtered in that it's Preservation's investiture, but it's less filtered in that it can power all of the Allomantic powers, instead of only one, in the case of metals. So when one draws the mists directly, now there's the unfiltered, or less filtered investiture to be used any way one sees fit.

 

Now, there are some things about this that I don't fully understand. Why can one be either a 1-metal misting or a full mistborn, but nothing in between? That is, why can one use certain filters to pull in the investiture, but not any others, until suddenly one can use all of them? Why could only Vin draw the mists? Why, when she used a little of the mists, could she only use Allomancy, but when she drew them all she could do whatever she wanted? But the basics of filtered / unfiltered investiture seem to make sense to me.

[Shattered]

But why does it activate all the Allomantic abilities at once?

 

The way Brandon's phrased it is that the specific molecular shape, the way the atoms are arranged and so on in the alloys, acts exactly like a shape does in AonDor. In AonDor, you draw a shape, and this shape modulates what the Dor does as it passes from wherever it is into the Physical.

 

The mist doesn't have that molecular structure. It's a gas. So if the molecular structure is what shapes the Investiture, why should the mists be able to create the same effect?

 

---

 

Having listened to the Chicago signing, I wasn't able to find any obvious questions relating to it, but I admit I only went through the entire Extra bit and then the signing line questions that Weiry marked down.

Just read the explanation over one more time. The reason that metals only allow for one ability to be used it because it is in a solid state. The Mist, as a gas, is fluid, and does not have the same restriction. I assume this relates the the fact that Investiture is affected based on the body's interpretation of the power of a Shard. Since the Mist isn't held to any specific shape, it doesn't grant and single specific ability. It grants all of them in a spectacular way, due to its high potency.

[Moogle]

Just read the explanation over one more time. The reason that metals only allow for one ability to be used it because it is in a solid state. The Mist, as a gas, is fluid, and does not have the same restriction. I assume this relates the the fact that Investiture is affected based on the body's interpretation of the power of a Shard. Since the Mist isn't held to any specific shape, it doesn't grant and single specific ability. It grants all of them in a spectacular way, due to its high potency.

 

I'm not sure if you're quite grasping the problem of the idea of metals as Aons, or if I'm misinterpreting you. The idea is that the metal's molecular structure is what causes the effect, in the same way that an Aon's shape determines the power. If there's no shape, you don't get a power. The shape causes the power. If you draw an Aon incorrectly, nothing happens. You can't burn wrong alloys because there's not the right molecular structure/shape. You seem to just be ignoring this rule and saying "it's a gas, therefore it doesn't need a shape, therefore it can do anything", and it's running completely counter to the idea that shape causes the power. It just seems to conflict with the WoBs I posted above, and doesn't leave me feeling like I understand anything.

 

Also a consequence of your theory: If the mists can activate every ability because they're a gas and don't need a shape, shouldn't Stormlight should be able to activate all ten Surges? This does not seem to be the case.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Moogle

[Darkness]

My thoughts will be in spoiler tags for simplicity. Everything else is WoB.

"First, to these forces, energy and mass are the same thing. So, their power can take physical shape—as Preservation’s did in the bead of metal Elend ate. Second, there is a bit of Preservation inside of all the people—and it’s this that allows the people to perform Allomancy. It needs to be awakened and stirred to be of use, but when it is, a proper metal can draw forth more of Preservation’s power. It’s like the metal attunes the bit within the person, allowing it to act as a catalyst to grab more power.

The metal used in Allomancy is like a key or a doorway to the power that Allomancy actually uses. The metal acts as a filter, much as the Aons in Elantris do, to determine what the power actually does.

Alloy's Ars Arcanum:

Allomancy is the most common of the three. It is end-positive, according to my terminology, meaning that the practitioner draws in power from an external source. The body then filters it into various forms. (The actual outlet of the power is not chosen by the practitioner, but instead is hardwritten into their Spiritweb.) The key to drawing this power comes in the form of various types of metals, with specific compositions being required. Though the metal is consumed in the process, the power itself doesn’t actually come from the metal. The metal is a catalyst, you might say, that begins an Investiture and keeps it running.

So the metal draws the power in and modulates it, and then the body interprets the input power into a physical effect. First though, the body must have the right spirit web to interpret the incoming power and turn the metal key.

In Elantris, magic works by drawing symbols in the air. What actually happens is that when they draw a symbol, energy passes through it from another place (which is my get-out for the laws of thermodynamics) and the effect of that energy is moderated by the symbol. In one case it may become light, in another it may become fire. In Mistborn, the metals have a similar effect. The magic is not coming from the metal (even if some characters think it is). It is being drawn from the same place and moderated by the metal.

It may be possible that the spirit web for Elantrians is more general than for Mistings or Mistborn. An Elantrian's body is already attuned to drawing aons (unlike other Selians), and so the only filter is the son itself; the Elantrian doesn't have to have a specific spirit web bit allowing him/her to access each aon individually. They bypass the body-filter and the power comes through resembling the shape it was drawn in (fire to fire, light to light, etc... elemental powers). In Mistborn, the metals act as aons to draw the power through in a specific form, but then they have the additional filter of the individual's spirit web that interprets the incoming power into a physical effect (E.g. iron could be a light-shape molecular pattern, but the body interprets it as inward magnetism, pewter could be a fire-shape, but interprets as physical strength.

Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.)

So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive."

Ok sure, the pure essence of a Shard is manifested in different forms. One is recognizable as similar to a metal, but it doesn't have a limiting filter because it is raw investiture. That means that the only restriction on it now is the body's interpretation of the power that is ripping through their spirit web. Perhaps when the metals modulate the power, it only allows through the power that fits safety through the spirit web that individual is already attuned to handle (since an allomancer can only 'turn the key/burn the metal' if the body is already prepared to deal with the specific power influx). But when pure investiture is burned, it invades every aspect of the spirit web, causing damage where the web is not prepared to handle the power, but it still runs along the pre-attuned paths and is open to being interpreted by the body (like a flash flood still sends water along the waterways, but invades and damages everything else around too, and creates new 'troughs').

I'll try to address the problem of phases in the next section. I honestly don't see why Brandon would feel the need to differentiate between phases of essence... maybe he's just limiting the system to make it more interesting (I read his essay about limitations being the truly important things in magic).

Here we go. First, a couple of interpretations from my behalf:

1. Liquid (of Ruin or Preservation) is most potent, and is able to fuel allomancy, feruchemy, or really of the powers. Gas (of Ruin or Preservation) fuels just allomancy. Solid is able to do one specific thing: Atium lets you see into the future, and you have to be attuned to use it. Preservation builds new paths in your spirit web (makes you an allomancer), and attunes you to be able to draw the mists into your body (the implication being that using the mists is otherwise a transient, and sentiently restricted/directed ability).

For what it's worth, I view 'the powers of creation' and 'investiture/Shard power' to be synonymous, and not equivalent to Preservation's body. Preservation's body is specifically the mists, Lerasium, and Well. An allomancer may obtain power through the metal/body filter without burning the mists, well or lerasium, or even atium for that matter.

2. Vin -when using the mists - uses the essence of Preservation itself to fuel allomancy. The mists are not the key or filter, they are the fuel. I propose that with that raw power accessed, the only filter applicable is the allomancer's body. Specifically, their spirit web, which interprets incoming power and turns it into physical effects.

3. To sum it up. The mists don't activate every ability. Your body just interprets the raw power in that way. For the case of Stormlight, I'd guess the spren moderates the incoming power similarly to what metals or aons do, and modulates it before it gets to be interpreted by the body. I see two filters in allomancy: first, metals; second, body (aka spirit web). The molecular shape of the mists doesn't matter, because it isn't filtered at all until it hits the spirit web.

This makes a great deal of sense to me. If any part is unclear, please let me know and I'll try to explain using different words. I guess the only things that isn't clear to me (using these interpretations) is why the phase of godly essence (mists:well:lerasium) would alter the effect it has when burning/using it.

Edit:

to address a few smaller points:

1. Stormlight filtered through spren: I had in mind that Surgebinding is the physical interpretation (by the spirit web) of the power filtered through the Nahel bond itself (which has a different structure for each radiant order). This is also the reason there is a finite number of types of radiantspren: The spren's structure has to be of the perfect type to filter power into a form usable for Surgebinding, or the bond would not take.

Furthermore, I think that in the case of Stormlight, the filtering due to the Nahel bond occurs before the Stormlight enters the Surgebinders, so as to protect the Surgebinder from the power rushing through unprepared paths in the spirit web and causing damage; this may be what was meant by Surgebinding having the potential to open the fissures of the soul wider. This would mean that each order of Radiants could potentially feel the effects of Stormlight in differing ways. This also explains why normal people can't take up Stormlight and not use it; the Nahel bond acts as a key, like metals on Scadrial.

The exception to this seems to be Squires. Somehow Squires are able to intake Stormlight, but not actually use it. This is where I get quite a bit less sure of myself. I would guess the following:

Squires receive filtered Stormlight, drawn through the key of their Radiant's Nahel bond. However, lacking the appropriate spirit web to deal with it, the body is unable to properly interpret it into a physical effect (the less common paths in the spirit web of tension, illumination, gravity, etc.), so it only grants the innate effects of Stormlight (the more common paths in the spirit web corresponding to strength, healing, image of self, etc.)

Alternatively, Honorblades modify the user's spirit web to be able to use one of the Surges, and ALSO act as a key to filter through the appropriate power. This is why Honorblades are considered to be so powerful. Spren can't actually modify the spirit web, they can only work with what's there. The Honorblades actually MAKE Surgebinders. I don't know why spren should be able to grant access to two Surges, or why the spirit web seems to be able to use two Surges. Perhaps everybody and their spren is made of dual Cultivation/Honor, and one effect corresponds to each deity? (That's just off the cuff)

2. I don't see WoBs conflicting my view on metals being filters, and the body interpreting. The only WoB that could possibly conflict it says "The metal used in Allomancy is like a key or a doorway to the power that Allomancy actually uses. The metal acts as a filter, much as the Aons in Elantris do, to determine what the power actually does." Then he goes on to explain about Feruchemically charged metals - his main topic. This may just be a phrasing issue. In all the other quotes, he is very careful to say that the metal 'filters' or 'modulates', and the body 'interprets'.

3. The WoB very specifically lays out the uses for each phase of essence. Only liquid can be used to fuel Feruchemy directly (unless you're short-circuiting the system, which I imagine could actually use the mists or possibly atium/lerasium). I see this as a bit of hand-wavery: The solid lerasium attunes to burning allomantic metals (i.e. modifies the spirit web). Gas fuels that attuned system + rips through the body like a flood. Liquid seems to be the odd one out to me. I would guess that because it is the most potent, it ends up having the same effect as if you were holding a substantial portion of the Shard itself, so you can use it to whatever effect the Shard can do. It probably also modifies your spirit web to be able to channel the power into a multitude of useable forms, like Feruchemy, etc. Vin probably just wasn't used to Feruchemy when using the Well, so she didn't know to try it. In the Mistborn series, Vin and Rashek are Slivers because they held a significant portion of Preservation (i.e. they held the power at the Well). I would assume that being a Sliver is more than just a title. Being in contact with the most potent form of Shard power literally changes your spirit web, even more than the solid and gas forms would.

Thanks for reading my ranting. That took a lot more space than I was planning!

Edited March 2, 2015 by Darkness

[Moogle]

@Darkness: Your theory does not explain how Compounding functions. If the metals only allow through one specific power that the Spiritweb is going to use, Compounding should not function for non-Feruchemists. However, we know that non-Feruchemists can burn unlocked metalminds to get superboosts of that attribute. Non-Feruchemists will not have these pathways through their Spiritwebs, so it is heavily implied to me that the metal's modulation is producing an effect and it is not the Spiritweb.

 

Thank you for the contribution. It has some ideas I can think on.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Moogle

[Darkness]

Unfortunately, the first WoB on Compounding is paraphrased. But the following ones are apparently complete. I shamelessly cut parts that didn't talk about compounding...

If the metal is Feruchemically charged, then it will basically become a super-burst of Feruchemical power with no Allomantic effect. The Feruchemical charge acts as a filter as well as the metal, and changes what the power does. in this case, say you were burning steel, you would just be massively speedy for a second, and wouldn't actually have the ability to push on anything Allomantically. Hope that answered the question. I get the concept, so if you need me to explain it differently, let me know and i'll try. Oh, the other thing I forgot is that this concept only works if it's a metal that you charged yourself. If it's a metal someone else charged, it would just work like regular Allomancy, and the Feruchemical charge would just cease to exist.

Compounding is where you are able to kind of draw in more power than you should with feruchemy. What’s going on there is you’re actually charging a piece of metal, and then you are burning that metal as a feruchemical charge. What is happening is that the feruchemical charge overwrites the allomantic charge, and so you actually fuel feruchemy with allomancy, is what you are doing. Then if you just get out another piece of metal and store it in, since you’re not drawing the power from yourself, you’re cheating the system, you’re short-circuiting the system a little bit. So you can actually use the power that usually fuels allomancy, to fuel feruchemy, which you can then store in a metalmind, and basically build up these huge reservoirs of it. So what’s going on there is… imagine there’s like, an imprint, a wavelength, so to speak. A beat for an allomantic thing, that when you burn a metal, it says “ok, this is what power we give.” When it’s got that charge, it changes that beat and says, “now we get this power.” And you access a set of feruchemical power. That’s why compounding is so powerful.

In compounding, when you have the power of both Allomancy and Feruchemy, you draw power from the other place through the metal and it recognizes the power that is already stored—"Oh, this is healing, I know how to do that”—and so you get the power of Feruchemy but boosted by energy from the other place. This is how the Lord Ruler achieved immortality.

So basically you burn a Feruchemically-charged allomantic metal to double-filter the power. It seems like the metal shapes the allomantic 'beat' of the power (which we should be familiar with), and the Feruchemical charge re-shapes the allomantic beat into a super-burst of the corresponding Feruchemical power, which can then be stored in a metal mind (IF the orginal metal was charged by the same person as is burning it). In the last WoB, it sounds like when you burn a charged metal mind the power that is coming through the allomantic filter actively recognizes the 'beat' of the Feruchemical reserve, and then changes itself to match. Regardless of the specifics, you fuel compounding by being able to allomantically burn whatever metal is Feruchemically charged. There are 2 restrictions:

1. You have to have been the original one to charge the metal you are now burning - probably because each person's spirit web has a slightly different 'beat' when storing Feruchemical power and if the incoming power takes up somebody else's 'beat', then you wouldn't be able to manipulate and store it.

2. Obviously, you have to be a Feruchemist. First to charge the metal in the first place, and second to charge the power you get out of compounding into another metal mind.

@Darkness: Your theory does not explain how Compounding functions. If the metals only allow through one specific power that the Spiritweb is going to use, Compounding should not function for non-Feruchemists. However, we know that non-Feruchemists can burn unlocked metalminds to get superboosts of that attribute. Non-Feruchemists will not have these pathways through their Spiritwebs, so it is heavily implied to me that the metal's modulation is producing an effect and it is not the Spiritweb.

Thank you for the contribution. It has some ideas I can think on.

So to answer your implied question, compounding doesn't work for non-Feruchemists. As per WoB, unless you yourself stored the initial charge that you are burning, compounding won't work and the metal mind will just burn allomantically, and the Feruchemical charge will be lost.

I don't know where you got your idea that non-Feruchemists can burn 'unlocked' metal minds, I don't recall that, or even the term 'unlocked' metal minds. If it's canonized in something I haven't seen, I would sincerely love to read the WoB on it!

Thank you for your original thoughts too! This is a fascinating subject for me! So much so that I should have been in bed 2 hours ago

Edit for late night spelling mistakes

Edited March 2, 2015 by Darkness

[Moogle]

@Darkness: Kurk made the theory, and then had it confirmed via WoB here. Those explanations of Compounding were not quite taking into account identity shenanigans.

 

This is shared in other systems. For example, you can't breathe in someone else's Surgebindings (Szeth never tried to drop Kaladin to the ground by taking his Stormlight), though you can breathe in your own (Shallan gets rid of her Lightweavings, Kaladin iirc does it as well). We have a recent WoB from Chicago basically confirming a Feruchemist playing with their identity could steal the Breath from an Awakened object that they did not Awaken. The full transcript is not done, but you can read what's been done here.

 

Kurkistan: Could a Feruchemist manipulate their identity such that they could make a metalmind that anyone could tap?

Brandon: Ah.. RAFO.

Kurkistan: Okay; could they manipulate their identity such that they could pull Breaths out of something that somebody else Awakened?

Brandon: Ah.. ahahah, Awakened, oh yeah... That one's going to be harder, but you're thinking ar- You're thinking with portal. <smiles> Do you know what that means.

Kurkistan: Yes, I know what it means-

Brandon: You're starting to think with portals.

Kurkistan: I'm thinking with portals, okay, thank you.

Brandon: Yes. In other words you're wrapping your head around the way that the magic system is working, so.

 

If Feruchemists alone could Compound, then yes your theory has no problems, but non-Feruchemists have no problems doing it with the right metalmind.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Moogle

[Kurkistan]

So to answer your implied question, compounding doesn't work for non-Feruchemists. As per WoB, unless you yourself stored the initial charge that you are burning, compounding won't work and the metal mind will just burn allomantically, and the Feruchemical charge will be lost.

I don't know where you got your idea that non-Feruchemists can burn 'unlocked' metal minds, I don't recall that, or even the term 'unlocked' metal minds. If it's canonized in something I haven't seen, I would sincerely love to read the WoB on it!

Thank you for your original thoughts too! This is a fascinating subject for me! So much so that I should have been in bed 2 hours ago

 

That compounding works for non-Feruchemists because Feruchemists can "unlock" their metalminds is still speculation (very very persuasive spectulation, I'd say ), but we do have a WoB that non-Feruchemists can compound others' metalminds under the right conditions. There's also one that says that there's a way to get a non-powered person to access a metalmind, which also suggets "unlocking".

 

EDIT: NINJAAAAA!!! 

Edited March 2, 2015 by Kurkistan

[Darkness]

Kurkistan: Could an Augor Compound Health out of a goldmind if its proper owner messed with Identity in the right way?

Brandon: This is possible.

 

So beyond a smile at a twitter post, this is the only direct confirmation we have of the entire 'identity' based compounding theory. FWIW I definitely agree with the theory, as far as I understand it.

 

Basically, either the person who initially stores the Feruchemical charge has to 'depersonalize' their metal mind by riding themselves of identity (or alternatively re-personalize it by manufacturing a fake identity corresponding to someone else... I think that would be as difficult as Soulstamping a person), or the person using the Feruchemically charged metal has to reduce their identity to the point that no spirit web inhibition comes into play when they try to access or compound the metal. The identity hijacking/unlocking mechanisms can carry over into other magic systems.

 

Is that a decent summary?

 

I picture it kind of like that Japanese game show of human tetris (the one where people try to fit through the moving wall). The Feruchemical charge acts like the moving wall. The allomantic power is the shape of the person. The person (when activated) sees the shape of the wall and tries to fit through it perfectly, and at the moment they pass through they are in a different position. Removing the person's 'identity' is like reducing his size and shape to a 1D point, then fitting him through the wall. He'll get through because no part of him blocks the passing. Removing the wall's 'identity' is like bashing a hole big enough for anyone to fit through it. It's a very David-like metaphor because obviously the allomantic power changes into a recognizable Feruchemical conformation during compounding.

 

I actually see this whole thing more as a caveat and perversion/hijacking of the system than a fundamental rule. It's a way to get access that is separate from the basic set of rules guiding the system. I think my original theory still works. This just manipulates the system in interesting ways. So a non-Feruchemist can access an 'unlocked' metal mind, and any identity storer should be able to access any metal mind (or get anyone else to). An allomancer with no identity would be able to burn a Feruchemically charged metal mind and get the burst of enhanced Feruchemical power from it. I don't quite see how a non-Feruchemist (even someone with 0 identity) could re-store the Feruchemical charge from the energy burst, but that's a small thing.

 

Thanks for the reading btw! I didn't think my theory on Allomancy and the Mists would expand into Surgebinding, Stormlight, and Feruchemy so quickly and... naturally. But I really do think the basic functionings of the systems are similar to what I'm trying to describe (and very much in line with what you are describing too, I think).

[Shard of Adonalsium]

I wonder what pure Preservation-fueled Shardpool Allomancy would be like.

 

Edit: As in filling a jug with Shardpool (water?) and ingesting it.

 

Edit2: I mean in the way that would Shardpool water be more efficient and contain more Investiture that the gaseous form of Preservation, the Mists? Could you, by mixing Ruin's Shardpool with Preservation's Shardpool, create something that was the mediator? A sort of Shard that powered Feruchemy? By drinking both the mixture of Ruin/Preservation's Shardpools and then drinking pure Preservation, would you gain Allomantic and Feruchemical powers far beyond that of even TLR or above? (Tangent alert!)

Edited March 2, 2015 by WeiryWriter
Please don't double, or triple, post, use the edit feature