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How Did Each Desolation End?


Kelsier Kenobi

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I ran a search and couldn't find anything on what ended Desolations.  We know from the Prologue with Kalak that the last one ended with a large scale battle.  I'm curious as to what signified the end of that battle and how did the Heralds know they were victorious and had to teleport back to damnation?

 

I doubt it was just killing all of the Thunderclasts (the only confirmed enemy present at the battle) that had gathered.   Could killing all of the Unmade signify the end?  If the Unmade are Odium's version of the Heralds, had they ever killed all 10 Heralds would that have been Victory for Odium?  Or could the Radiants have ended it on there own if all of the Heralds fell in battle?

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I was going to say that the Unmade killing the Heralds would be a win for Odium... except Taln was killed, and he didn't "die", he just went back to the torture room. Maybe the Oathpact stated that killing all ten heralds would be a win for Odium, and anything less than that would be a loss... but in that case, one would think that all of Odium's forces would be focused on killing the Heralds. Knights Radiants are powerful and all, but sometimes the Heralds came back and Rosharans didn't even have Iron (unless I'm remembering "Taln's" quote wrong?) In that kind of situation, how difficult would it be to direct the Thunderclasts et all to just kill all the heralds?

 

So... I dunno?

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Well, to figure out how a Desolation ends, shouldn't it be at least clear what a Desolation is and how it actually begins?

 

For me, we have descriptions of what happens during a desolation, we know about voidbringers etc. but we don't know what the goal of a  Desolation really is. Is it the destruction of all life on Roshar? Something else?

 

And it's not clear what starts a Desolation. Is it when Heralds break under torture? Or is it a phenomenon which is predictable and mathematical in nature, just like a highstorm? There are clues for both of these options.

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This is the most we know.

 

Q:  What caused a Desolation to end? Was it just the defeat of Odium's forces? Because the Desolations start when the Heralds break under torture.
A:  Because the Heralds can no longer be in existence. There is a certain period of time that they can be there, and after that, if they're there, they will start a new one. So the Heralds do need to leave for a Desolation to end.
Q:  Oh. So they've got a time limit.
A:  They do. Otherwise the Desolation will start again. What they discovered is not all of them have to. As long as one remains, the Desolation will not start again.
Q:  So, by the nine leaving, did that actually break the Oathpact for them? Did it change the cycle of Desolations?
A:  They have not completely broken the Oathpact, despite what they may think.

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Great question.

So based off of that the question becomes, how did the Heralds know it was time to leave?

Soon after the previous desolation ended?  Which just makes the question: How do the Heralds know that the Desolation is ended? 

 

This presumes that the previous Desolation has to end before the next one can begin. 

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Maybe the Heralds always have a set amount of time to be on Roshar (random example: 50 days). Once 50 days is up, they have to go back, or Odium can send another wave of 'whatever' into Roshar.

If they clear the enemy forces in 20 days, all power to them, they get an Earth month of vacation. If they don't get the job quite done, then the Heralds had to clean up.

I would think it more likely that the Heralds and Odium's forces had the same set amount of time to contest Roshar. The Heralds' job would be to protect however many people they could, while Odium's purpose would be to kill everyone in that time. The Oathpact could be Honor saying, "I'll give you access to do what you can with the planet for this much time, and in return you don't bug them for all the other time. Oh, and you can entertain yourself with these 10 volunteers while you wait. Better yet... when they break and go back to Roshar, then you can renew your planetary play time and go with them."

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I always thought it had something to do with unbinding the voidbringers so they would become parshmen.

I got the impression that was something specific to this previous Desolation: cutting off the Listeners from the Unmade via 'slaveform'.  There was a remnant left, who are the Parshendi at Narak, but by and large they trumped the Unmade.

 

The other major question I have is: are the Unmade bound or absent when it's not a Desolation?  We know that Moelach's Death Rattles began around the time of Gavilar's expeditions (assuming Taravangian wasn't lying; no reason he would in that scenario) so we can infer that at the minimum Moelach and probably Nergaoul were either dormant, bound, and/or unable to 'touch' the planet and its inhabitants.  Additionally, the woman Taffa in Dalinar's vision seemed to think that Midnight Essence attacks were part of a Desolation, so that would suggest that the rest of the Unmade are also bound by whatever restriction forbids them from going postal on Roshar, as we know Yelig-Nar can.

 

In other words, I suspect that there is a way for the Heralds to defeat the Unmade and 'win' a Desolation, but we simply don't know what the victory condition(s) is/are.  At the very least, we can assume that they have to render the Unmade banished or bound, and it's likely that the Dawnshards* factor in, here. We can also assume that an extinction of the Listener race was and isn't one of the conditions, either, or else that could very well have happened by now after the human Surgebinding emerged; this is why I'm focusing so much on the Unmade.

 

* I say this partly because of the Poem of Ista reference to them, in addition to the fact that it seems like the Unmade are most active or on the offensive during the night.  This last has been hinted here and there, and also corroborates the idea that the Dawnshards were made to fight the Unmade.

Edited by dvoraen
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While I can envision a deal where the Heralds being tortured is a part, I have trouble understanding how it fits with Honor's intent.  The first ideal shared by all the orders seems important to Honor's intent.  Isn't deliberately subjecting the Heralds to torture putting destination before journey?

It is easier for me to imagine Honor being outmaneuvered by Odium resulting in the Herald's torture.  I have no evidence to support this speculation. 

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While I can envision a deal where the Heralds being tortured is a part, I have trouble understanding how it fits with Honor's intent.  The first ideal shared by all the orders seems important to Honor's intent.  Isn't deliberately subjecting the Heralds to torture putting destination before journey?

It is easier for me to imagine Honor being outmaneuvered by Odium resulting in the Herald's torture.  I have no evidence to support this speculation. 

I agree with the whole torture thing not being an Honorish thing (unless sacrificing yourself to save others is of Honor?), but don't forget that in the TWoK Prelude, Jezrien says that they took up the burden willingly. So they must have known what the Oathpact entailed (live to fight then die to be tortured).

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I can't help but feel the unmade are connected to the Heralds. It would be interesting to know if the Thrill was around before the previous Desolation (i.e. when all the Heralds were in Damnation). WoB says the Oathpact isn't as broken as the Heralds think it is, but maybe since 9 of the Heralds remained, 9 of the Unmade can too, and are only as active as the Heralds. From the way the characters speak of it, I get the feeling the Thrill was around long before Gavilar's expedition. Maybe it came into effect when Nalan went back for his Honorblade?

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I agree with the whole torture thing not being an Honorish thing (unless sacrificing yourself to save others is of Honor?), but don't forget that in the TWoK Prelude, Jezrien says that they took up the burden willingly. So they must have known what the Oathpact entailed (live to fight then die to be tortured).

No, the issue is that Honor should not have been able to force a burden onto someone else while getting off scott free, as that doesn't sound honorable. Even Preservation was more selfless than that due to his intent. If he did set up the Oathpact it would probably date back to Tanavast's very early days as Honor, before the intent of his power completely consumed him. Which is weird, because then Aona and Skai would not have lived very long, yet their world seems heavily intent-influenced.

So Cultivation may have helped construct the system. She'd probably be fine doing that. Otherwise it seems weird.

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No, the issue is that Honor should not have been able to force a burden onto someone else while getting off scott free, as that doesn't sound honorable. Even Preservation was more selfless than that due to his intent. If he did set up the Oathpact it would probably date back to Tanavast's very early days as Honor, before the intent of his power completely consumed him. Which is weird, because then Aona and Skai would not have lived very long, yet their world seems heavily intent-influenced.

So Cultivation may have helped construct the system. She'd probably be fine doing that. Otherwise it seems weird.

To be fair shardic intend seems to only be external and not internal, so Honor might very well not have feelt the need to be honorable himself.

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No, the issue is that Honor should not have been able to force a burden onto someone else while getting off scott free, as that doesn't sound honorable. Even Preservation was more selfless than that due to his intent. If he did set up the Oathpact it would probably date back to Tanavast's very early days as Honor, before the intent of his power completely consumed him. Which is weird, because then Aona and Skai would not have lived very long, yet their world seems heavily intent-influenced.

So Cultivation may have helped construct the system. She'd probably be fine doing that. Otherwise it seems weird.

 

I want to agree with you, but... 2 things. 1) Honor is definitely trying to stop Odium from destroying other Shards as well (reference last vision of TWoK where the stars start going out), and 2) when Kaladin remarks to Syl that he should have sent  the Bridgemen away instead of them becoming bodyguards and risking death, Syl, an honorspren says that the Bridgemen chose freely to risk themselves to protect Dalinar. maybe the same is true of the Heralds. They may have known the cost of protecting Roshar was torture, death, etc but chose to do so anyway.

So maybe this doesn't conflict with the Oathpact being established long after Tanavast became Honor.

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I put forth here that if the Heralds breaking is what triggers the Desolations then the following is  likely to be true.

"Mankind that dreads the Desolation has to make the choice to start it, while the enemy who craves the Desolation has to make the choice to end it"

My guess is that said choice is either,  one giving up or everyone 'dying'.

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I put forth here that if the Heralds breaking is what triggers the Desolations then the following is  likely to be true.

"Mankind that dreads the Desolation has to make the choice to start it, while the enemy who craves the Desolation has to make the choice to end it"

My guess is that said choice is either,  one giving up or everyone 'dying'.

Assuming your theory is on the right track, can your theory fit in the fact that spren bonded with humans after the Oathpact had formed (as per Tanavast, after the spren saw what Honor had done with the Honorblades and the Heralds)? Because the surges need to be around for the theory to work. It would be an interesting twist if it did work like this though.

 

I like the idea of Knights Radiant leaving the Plate and Blades for the future generations.

My only other qualm is what Jasnah says, that right before desolations the ranks of the K.R. would swell. I don't think we can take anything scholars, even Jasnah, say about the Heralds and Desolations and K.R. at face value, because they have almost no first hand witnesses of the events. All they have is hearsay from mostly hundreds of years after the Recreance.

Sorry wrong thread for that.

Edited by Kelek's Breath
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While I can envision a deal where the Heralds being tortured is a part, I have trouble understanding how it fits with Honor's intent.  The first ideal shared by all the orders seems important to Honor's intent.  Isn't deliberately subjecting the Heralds to torture putting destination before journey?

It is easier for me to imagine Honor being outmaneuvered by Odium resulting in the Herald's torture.  I have no evidence to support this speculation. 

Well, the Oathpact was, presumably, some sort of deal between Honor and Odium.  For both parties to agree to it, there'd have to be a bit of give-and-take on both sides.

 

That said, I also like the idea of the whole torture thing not being part of the original intent.  Maybe...the Tranqueline Halls?  Weren't they lost to Odium?  And isn't that where people go when they die?  So maybe the original deal was something like "You can come fight on Roshar during the Desolations, but afterward you have to go hang out in the Tranqueline Halls."  This is a fine deal for the Heralds...until Odium conquers the Halls.  Now the deal is literally a hell of a lot worse.

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Well, the Oathpact was, presumably, some sort of deal between Honor and Odium.  For both parties to agree to it, there'd have to be a bit of give-and-take on both sides.

 

That said, I also like the idea of the whole torture thing not being part of the original intent.  Maybe...the Tranqueline Halls?  Weren't they lost to Odium?  And isn't that where people go when they die?  So maybe the original deal was something like "You can come fight on Roshar during the Desolations, but afterward you have to go hang out in the Tranqueline Halls."  This is a fine deal for the Heralds...until Odium conquers the Halls.  Now the deal is literally a hell of a lot worse.

galendo, that is exactly the sort of scenario that I consider possible.  There is information from interviews and book signings with which you may not be familiar.  At one point, Brandon said that the Oathpact is a deal between the Heralds and Honor.  From the beginning of tWoK, it apparently involves the Honorblades also.

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Hi everyone, I've been on the forums for a while (love the theories, even the crackpot ones) and decided to jump in.

I think Honor sacrificed himself in order to lock Odium in the system. He recognized the terrible threat Rayse posed to the Cosmere (see Skai, Aona) and did the Honorable thing and sacrificed himself. If Odium just killed him and splintered his Shard...well it would be difficult for him to create the visions that Dalinar sees. I view these as his "suicide note".

I also view the Oathpact as him going to the Heralds and saying "Look guys, we can't beat him, our only hope is to contain him. How does an eternity of torture and war sound?".

I try to read all the WoB I can, but if I missed or forgot something that refutes this, then sorry. Please let me know if that's the case.

Edit: I forgot to mention that this is very similar to how Preservation contained Ruin, but maybe even more complete (full suicide instead of just partial)

Edited by Ad-ol-nauseum
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With a bang I imagine....

@Ad-ol-nauseous. I agree with you about Honors sacrifice to stop Odium. I think after the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact Honor was kind of screwed for options and he gave his life to trap Rayse in/on one of the other planets. In the letter we hear how it has succeeded but I think the prison is staring to wane and weaken.

Brandon said in a WOB that after a Shard is splintered the holder does not die immediately, id like to know if he survived for awhile what he was up to!

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Hi everyone, I've been on the forums for a while (love the theories, even the crackpot ones) and decided to jump in.

I think Honor sacrificed himself in order to lock Odium in the system. He recognized the terrible threat Rayse posed to the Cosmere (see Skai, Aona) and did the Honorable thing and sacrificed himself. If Odium just killed him and splintered his Shard...well it would be difficult for him to create the visions that Dalinar sees. I view these as his "suicide note".

I also view the Oathpact as him going to the Heralds and saying "Look guys, we can't beat him, our only hope is to contain him. How does an eternity of torture and war sound?".

I try to read all the WoB I can, but if I missed or forgot something that refutes this, then sorry. Please let me know if that's the case.

Edit: I forgot to mention that this is very similar to how Preservation contained Ruin, but maybe even more complete (full suicide instead of just partial)

 

That sounds good, but the way Honour says it implies to me otherwise. 

 

Odium has come and killed him, and these are his dying words. I say this because he says he "cannot fight him any longer" and that he is "gone" and that he "should have realised he {Odium} would come for me" and finally that he is dead because Odium killed him, as per In The Top Room (WoK). 

 

If Honour had made the conscious decision to sacrifice himself I'd think he'd mention it more directly. I do think Honour bound him, but I don't think it was an intentional sacrifice it was just the only thing he could do, or maybe the best of a bad few.    

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