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Motivation, Execution, Consequence: A Realmatic Theory


Kurkistan

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General Update (I'll reply to OS in a bit):

I asked a few questions pertaining to this theory on the Q&A.

BioChroma:

Do Breaths inherently possess the ability to interpret and carry out commands, or does the Awakener need to impart that decision making ability on Awakened objects?

If the Awakener does need to impart the decision-making ability, then does Awakening consist of an Awakener copying a portion of his/her Cognitive aspect (as determined by his/her visualization and verbal Command) onto the Cognitive aspect of the object being Awakened, with Breath then providing the "juice" for the object to actually follow its Command: powering both physical motion and "cogitation" based upon the copied Cognitive aspect?

-If so, is that copying what drains color?

You're very close here.

And so I get one step closer to winning the war with Nepene. I would have preferred a clear answer on the first, simpler question, but I see this as a fairly clear indication that Breaths do not have the inherent ability to interpret and carry out commands. Most of my "closeness" is almost certainly related to my ridiculously detailed block-question, though, not the simple binary one.

Can Hemalurgy be used to steal Shardblades directly, transferring ownership from the victim to the spike's recipient without a need for the recipient to physically take the Shardblade first?

A novel use of Hemalurgy which is not outside the sphere of its powers.

So that's one for you, OS.

RAFO Bait:

Would it be fair to describe the three realms as the Spiritual realm providing motivation/general directives (gravity, desires, energy, etc.), the Cognitive realm interpreting and applying those directives, and the Physical realm as where these directives--as interpreted by the Cognitive realm--are actually implemented? All of this with interactions/change flowing back and forth between the realms as well (Physical phenomena affecting thought affecting the spirit, for example).

P.S. Wow that's longer than I thought it would be. Feel free to pick and choose, although (obviously) the question about Catquisitors is the most pressing. Thank you again. :D

Last One: Ha! That's a very interesting way to look at it. The theory isn't all there, but it's thinking along the right lines.

Good enough for now, I'll say. :D

EDIT:

Now you have been officially endorsed by Brandon, no one can question this theory :D

A nice thought, but we still need to refine it significantly. The best part of that quote (which I never in a million years thought he wouldn't just RAFO) is that we know we're facing the right direction in our search.

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This visualization is foremost on your mind at the moment of Awakening, and the process of issuing the Command actually copies over that Cognitive state from the Awakener's Cognitive aspect onto the Cognitive aspect of the heretofore inanimate object. The Cognitive aspect of the Awakened object then continuously reinterprets the meaning of your instruction ("hold things") in the context of what exactly you meant when you said it, with the combination of the two being an actual Command, with the motive force for this reinterpretation and any action derived from it coming from Breaths now loosely attached to the Spiritual aspect of the object in question.

So I'd first like to say that I love this whole theory. It helped me put a lot of missing pieces together that I hadn't noticed.

It also made me want to re read Warbreaker. I read a BS quote where he compares the forms of Aons to the forms of each element/metal of Allomancy (I can't find the quote now that I need it of course), and goes on to say this gateway is what decides how the Power of Creation is manifested. I guess in other words, depending on what "form" is used, a corresponding ability or magic comes through that gateway in a different way.

So really this post is to ask a question.

Could this Cognitive aspect (the visualization) you talk about be considered Awakening's "form" or "gateway" to access and interpret the magic system?

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So that's one for you, OS.

Excellent! I think your phrasing was generally better than mine, and I didn't think to raise that. While perusing Brandon's answers, I did notice that! I feel happy that my idea was novel!

My answers were a bit general so I think a bag full of RAFOs will be in order to punish me for not being specific to pin him down! We'll hopefully see soon enough. I'll most likely be back here to update my theories if any of my questions are even in part answered.

Good job, everyone!

Odium's_Shard

PS Excellent addition to critics rave, Kurkistan!

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I don't think I'm quite clear on it myself (after all, gravity, due to my unfortunately scientific viewpoint, cannot be viewed as in an alterable way, and yet here it seems the only solution). My personal interpretation is that the Light (Stormlight) used within the person to alter their sDNA that determines their effect by this force, such as the way they interact with the fields and such forth, and that the Stormlight only shifts this sDNA for the time it remains in the body, and it is being used up all the time (this is why bodies Szeth made float to the ceiling dropped after a time). Eventually the Stormlight is burned out.

Similarly, for other objects, the sDNA is altered somehow in their Spirit Vessel. I think as you say, since humans have the same Cognitive power, and do no subject themselves to it willingly, this must be through the wall.

I think that we're in complete agreement here. That's essentially the same conclusion that I came to about the Basic Lashing in my very first post on this subject. Nice to see similar conclusions through separate thought processes.

Sorry about this, I wasn't clear. What I meant is that at the 'gate' to each supposed cell (not really cells, but just for visualisation purposes) their is a Cognitive door. This allows the Cognitive Realm of a person to control the innings and outings of the cell. Hoid could travel through these links to Shadesmar to emerge from a different spot in Physical Realm.

The rest of the cell is entirely open. This is where you might puncture it. Maybe, realistically, there is little or no resistance, and it is floating in the power of the Realm, and the free space, but in order for the Stormlight to be trapped and this system to remain intact, there has to be a seal of some kind. And the Spiritual realm isn't only within these cells. These cells are just points in the Realm itself, almost like a locker within a school. The Cognitive deals with opening the locker and perceiving the sDNA, and the sDNA helps with power channelling from outside the cell (such as Allomancy taking power into the cell, and then 'burning' it through the metal gateway, to enact in the Physical realm).

I think I need to clear up my viewpoint, so any other confusions, please ask! I'm obviously never 100% correct, or we could be on a tangent here, so I'm not allowed to say what is right, so please help to destroy this theory for the sake of progress!

Odium's_Shard

Ah, that makes much more sense now. I can agree with you as the Cognitive realm allowing a very specific kind of access to the Spiritual. I think you're persistent "cell" terminology is actually a bit harmful in this case, actually. It seems more that the Spiritual aspect is an estate bordering the Cognitive, with a gate in between them. When you say "cell," I immediately think of an all-enveloping layer of Cognitive encapsulating the Spiritual realm.

I'm not sure that Stormlight really needs to be "bottled" in the Spiritual realm by Cognitive aspects. The Cognitive aspects of well-cut gems certainly aren't more robust than those of rough-cut ones, but they still hold Stormlight fairly well. The human body seems to simply be a poorly-wrought container for Stormlight in the Physical sense, not in the Cognitive.

I just saw Brandon's reply that the Cognitive is not the only route from the Physical to the Spiritual realm. So there are other ways of access that simply disregard the Cognitive realm.

So I'd first like to say that I love this whole theory. It helped me put a lot of missing pieces together that I hadn't noticed.

It also made me want to re read Warbreaker. I read a BS quote where he compares the forms of Aons to the forms of each element/metal of Allomancy (I can't find the quote now that I need it of course), and goes on to say this gateway is what decides how the Power of Creation is manifested. I guess in other words, depending on what "form" is used, a corresponding ability or magic comes through that gateway in a different way.

So really this post is to ask a question.

Could this Cognitive aspect (the visualization) you talk about be considered Awakening's "form" or "gateway" to access and interpret the magic system?

Thank you. As Brandon said, though, it still needs work even in just its general principles.

The Command as a "gateway" is an interesting way to look at it. I'm tempted initially to say "no" since it doesn't seem that Awakening actually needs to access any external power source, with everything given by the Breath, so it could simply be a closed system with the Cognitive aspect, once again, providing a mechanism for action.

Alternatively, though, it could be that there actually are a finite number of Commands, with each one serving as a gateway--activated by Breath--and the efficacy of which is akin to well- or poorly-drawn Aons on Sel.

Or Breaths could still provide the power without reliance on an outside source (beyond their Breathyness itself), but be keyed to these gateways anyway. This would make Awakening essentially like Aons with each Breath as a miniature Dor, really.

It's plausible enough, and definitely deserves some discussion and maybe evidence-trawling. I'm obviously very biased at this point, so I'm still tempted to leave Awakening much more open to the interpretations of its users, where Commands are in truth invented rather than discovered. Vasher does talk about discovering Commands, though, so you have ground to stand on.

But, while Aons seem to simply be saying "apply this power in this specific way," Awakening seems more demanding in that it requires a second level of interpretation, "apply this power to move this object in these specific ways in these circumstances" where the power is simply something that enables an object to act, not the actor itself.

I'm interested to hear your thoughts and see if you can find any evidence to back this interpretation up, but I still think that the complexity of the tasks that good Visualizations allow seems to imply that more is going on than a simple boost in power.

Excellent! I think your phrasing was generally better than mine, and I didn't think to raise that. While perusing Brandon's answers, I did notice that! I feel happy that my idea was novel!

My answers were a bit general so I think a bag full of RAFOs will be in order to punish me for not being specific to pin him down! We'll hopefully see soon enough. I'll most likely be back here to update my theories if any of my questions are even in part answered.

Good job, everyone!

Odium's_Shard

PS Excellent addition to critics rave, Kurkistan!

Yeah, I'm hoping that we get a few more interesting answers before all's said and done. I'm actually looking through the Q&A again right not to make sure I didn't miss anything.

I like that particular addition to CR as well, I'll admit. :)

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Ah, that makes much more sense now. I can agree with you as the Cognitive realm allowing a very specific kind of access to the Spiritual. I think you're persistent "cell" terminology is actually a bit harmful in this case, actually. It seems more that the Spiritual aspect is an estate bordering the Cognitive, with a gate in between them. When you say "cell," I immediately think of an all-enveloping layer of Cognitive encapsulating the Spiritual realm.

I'm not sure that Stormlight really needs to be "bottled" in the Spiritual realm by Cognitive aspects. The Cognitive aspects of well-cut gems certainly aren't more robust than those of rough-cut ones, but they still hold Stormlight fairly well. The human body seems to simply be a poorly-wrought container for Stormlight in the Physical sense, not in the Cognitive.

I just saw Brandon's reply that the Cognitive is not the only route from the Physical to the Spiritual realm. So there are other ways of access that simply disregard the Cognitive realm.

You're right, while the cell system works quite well for visualisation, its clearly not the entire model. I'm more inclined to believed, like you have said, that the Cognitive in some way leads off from these 'Spirit bubbles', and that the rest is floating in predominant (liquid?) emptiness... with Power from Shards somehow funneled in in the case of invested objects.

This however leads to a problem with the whole 'holding Stormlight' aspect that made this theory gel so well with Allomancy... If the 'bubble' has no resistance, then how does it contain the Stormlight. But you make a good point about the Cognitive ability of gems in return for their ability to hold Stormlight.

Can normal objects hold Stormlight? I have never seen (or do not remember) Kaladin placing Light into an object without a Lashing of some kind, and we know that humans breathe out the Light through their pores. However, does this not apply to inanimate objects? Can a rock actually hold Light without a Lashing? Or is it that any object can, it just has to be moved by an Invested human. Does the spren in someway facilitate the movement of Light? Could the rock hold the Light indefinitely? Is it just that the gems have some particular quality that allows them to capture the Light from Highstorms?

How do we know that during his experience in the open with a Highstorm it was the gem that absorbed the Light, and then Kaladin from the gem, as opposed to the Light entering Kaladin to begin with? After all, most people caught out in Highstorms either die or aren't Invested, so this can't easily be tested. Is it only gems that absorb Light? Why? Something to do with the molecular makeup, in the same way that the molecular structure of the metals allows the power of Allomancy through?

I hope we can help answer these questions in terms of your theory, and perhaps a mix of mine.

Also, interestingly, I would like to know what you think about Brandon's reply to me in which he stated that 'the Power of Creation comes directly from the Shard, for the most part, but the Shard often has no control over who uses the magic'. I do believe you were on Zas' thread that suggested that the Power of Creation was through, not from, the Shard, and I do believe that this means we'll have to redefine some aspects of your theory that don't depend on the presence of the Spiritual link to a Shard.

Odium's_Shard

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You're right, while the cell system works quite well for visualisation, its clearly not the entire model. I'm more inclined to believed, like you have said, that the Cognitive in some way leads off from these 'Spirit bubbles', and that the rest is floating in predominant (liquid?) emptiness... with Power from Shards somehow funneled in in the case of invested objects.

Okay, nice to narrow down on the models. I agree that the cell structure is useful for visualizing the Cognitive realm as a guardian of the Spiritual, but it has served its purpose. For Science!

This however leads to a problem with the whole 'holding Stormlight' aspect that made this theory gel so well with Allomancy... If the 'bubble' has no resistance, then how does it contain the Stormlight. But you make a good point about the Cognitive ability of gems in return for their ability to hold Stormlight.

Can normal objects hold Stormlight? I have never seen (or do not remember) Kaladin placing Light into an object without a Lashing of some kind, and we know that humans breathe out the Light through their pores. However, does this not apply to inanimate objects? Can a rock actually hold Light without a Lashing? Or is it that any object can, it just has to be moved by an Invested human. Does the spren in someway facilitate the movement of Light? Could the rock hold the Light indefinitely? Is it just that the gems have some particular quality that allows them to capture the Light from Highstorms?

How do we know that during his experience in the open with a Highstorm it was the gem that absorbed the Light, and then Kaladin from the gem, as opposed to the Light entering Kaladin to begin with? After all, most people caught out in Highstorms either die or aren't Invested, so this can't easily be tested. Is it only gems that absorb Light? Why? Something to do with the molecular makeup, in the same way that the molecular structure of the metals allows the power of Allomancy through?

I hope we can help answer these questions in terms of your theory, and perhaps a mix of mine.

Just a note: We only have a highly specific example of how Surgebinders hold stormlight. Kaladin is a Windrunner (Body Focus: Inhalation) and Szeth is some kind of psuedo-Windrunner. It makes sense that breathing out is what causes them to lose stormlight, and you could even say that everything else they lose is a result of their skin "breathing." Everything we say about how humans hold and lose stormlight may be wrong because of this.

Besides that, though, I don't actually think that holding stormlight needs to be that much of a problem under any model. Surgebinders, whether through spren or through other means (Szeth *glares*) could just get the sDNA specification that they can imperfectly intake, retain, and utilize stormlight as an energy source. Gems might simply be the focuses of magic on Roshar, uniquely suited--through a quirk of the world--to holding stormlight.

I think we're allowed to just say that people/gems can hold stormlight imperfectly as a function of their sDNA/being focuses on Roshar: I might just be being lazy here, but that's my initial reaction.

I'm tempted to think that Kaladin can absorb stormlight directly. We know there aren't spren in Shinovar, where the Highstorms don't go, so spren feed off of stormlight somehow. It wouldn't be surprising if the benefit of having Syl is just a blanket "can absorb stormlight" quality, rather than being restricted to "can absorb stormlight from gems." Soulcasting relies on gems because the gems are what shape the casting, but Kaladin doesn't care where the stormlight was stored before he uses it.

Also, interestingly, I would like to know what you think about Brandon's reply to me in which he stated that 'the Power of Creation comes directly from the Shard, for the most part, but the Shard often has no control over who uses the magic'. I do believe you were on Zas' thread that suggested that the Power of Creation was through, not from, the Shard, and I do believe that this means we'll have to redefine some aspects of your theory that don't depend on the presence of the Spiritual link to a Shard.

Odium's_Shard

My interpretation of that was that Shards hold the Power of Creation, they don't just channel it. So the Shards are the ultimate power source for magic systems. I don't see how the presence of a Shard fueling magic without their direct control (like taking advantage of the shade of a tree without that tree's permission) conflicts with my theory.

Edited by Kurkistan
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Thank you. As Brandon said, though, it still needs work even in just its general principles.

The Command as a "gateway" is an interesting way to look at it. I'm tempted initially to say "no" since it doesn't seem that Awakening actually needs to access any external power source, with everything given by the Breath, so it could simply be a closed system with the Cognitive aspect, once again, providing a mechanism for action.

Alternatively, though, it could be that there actually are a finite number of Commands, with each one serving as a gateway--activated by Breath--and the efficacy of which is akin to well- or poorly-drawn Aons on Sel.

Or Breaths could still provide the power without reliance on an outside source (beyond their Breathyness itself), but be keyed to these gateways anyway. This would make Awakening essentially like Aons with each Breath as a miniature Dor, really.

It's plausible enough, and definitely deserves some discussion and maybe evidence-trawling. I'm obviously very biased at this point, so I'm still tempted to leave Awakening much more open to the interpretations of its users, where Commands are in truth invented rather than discovered. Vasher does talk about discovering Commands, though, so you have ground to stand on.

But, while Aons seem to simply be saying "apply this power in this specific way," Awakening seems more demanding in that it requires a second level of interpretation, "apply this power to move this object in these specific ways in these circumstances" where the power is simply something that enables an object to act, not the actor itself.

I'm interested to hear your thoughts and see if you can find any evidence to back this interpretation up, but I still think that the complexity of the tasks that good Visualizations allow seems to imply that more is going on than a simple boost in power.

Yeah it's really hard to compare apples to apples w/ magic systems obviously. The only other thing I could compare the metals to would be Breaths, but that doesn't really make much sense since the metals are destroyed while Breaths can be retrieved, and I believe that Breath is what powers Awakening, where as metals don't power Allomancy directly. Unless you bundle Breath, Command, AND visualization and compare it to the metals, but I think that gets too convoluted and still doesn't make much sense.

I definitely agree that Awakening is much more open ended than Allomancy and AonDor. Vivenna was able to escape Vasher by just guessing Commands to untie the ropes, so it seems like as long as there's very few ways to interpret the Command, and the Awakener has a firm visualization, just about any Command could work. "Climb things, then grab things, then pull me up,” (Pg. 508 ebook) and “Upon call,” she Commanded, “become my fingers and grip that which

I must.” (Pg. 530 ebook). Both commands are pretty complicated, but there's not many ways to interpret them, and when you add in a vivid visualization BAM it happens. It's definitely one of the most flexible magic systems that we know of so far.

I also agree that Awakening is more of a closed/internal magic system compared to Allomancy and AonDor, but I don't think that should be the reasoning to dismiss the comparison between Form and Command/Visualization. When it comes down to it, your entire theory is finding the most basic building blocks of each magic system and finding common threads. Well I think there must be a "gateway" for every magic system as one of these basic building blocks. I don't, however, think where that power comes from will be one of those basics since we've already seen opposites w/ Awakening (Internal) and Allomancy/AonDor (External).

Whoa! I just had an epiphany. In the Q&A someone asked if you could group the 16 shards into groups like Allomancy and BS says "Good question...RAFO". Soooo, maybe we will get to see other Internal magic systems eventually and compare them to Awakening. Could Hemalurgy be considered Internal? Since the person just gets the power of Allomancy, and doesn't have to ingest and burn the metals... hmmmm. Sorry, mind wandering around a bit :P

Anywho, while I agree w/ what you say, I still want to believe that you can compare the Forms of Allomancy/AonDor to Awakening's Command/visualization. It's a little more complicated, but then again that complication leads to a wider range of uses.

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Some new answers that I noticed:

Are Surgebinding and Awakening related?

All of the magic systems are related, and these two do share some defining fundamentals.

Now color me interested from this one. I would not have picked Awakening + Surgebinding if I was to chose two fundamentally similar magic systems.

Perhaps it's the internalization and conscious reshaping of Shardic power (Breath/Stormlight). But that's not very fundamental. Unless my model of Awakening is fundamentally wrong on the Cognitive/Spiritual division (which I doubt), I don't see much simlarity on how they work, since Surgebinding so far seems to be focused around altering Spiritual aspects, while Awakening simply tacks some extra power onto Spiritual aspects while doing most of its heavy lifting in the Cognitive realm. I suppose soulcasting could be mainly Cognitive in that the "souls" of inanimate objects may stay the same when they transform.

Anyone have some thoughts on this quote?

1. What is the relationship between blood and the Spiritual Realm? (Since Hemalurgy needs blood to graft the sDNA in a spike into someone else's sDNA)

The blood being in motion is part of it.

Not sure what to make of this. It's probably important, though. Anyone else have an idea?

Yeah it's really hard to compare apples to apples w/ magic systems obviously. The only other thing I could compare the metals to would be Breaths, but that doesn't really make much sense since the metals are destroyed while Breaths can be retrieved, and I believe that Breath is what powers Awakening, where as metals don't power Allomancy directly. Unless you bundle Breath, Command, AND visualization and compare it to the metals, but I think that gets too convoluted and still doesn't make much sense.

I definitely agree that Awakening is much more open ended than Allomancy and AonDor. Vivenna was able to escape Vasher by just guessing Commands to untie the ropes, so it seems like as long as there's very few ways to interpret the Command, and the Awakener has a firm visualization, just about any Command could work. "Climb things, then grab things, then pull me up,” (Pg. 508 ebook) and “Upon call,” she Commanded, “become my fingers and grip that which

I must.” (Pg. 530 ebook). Both commands are pretty complicated, but there's not many ways to interpret them, and when you add in a vivid visualization BAM it happens. It's definitely one of the most flexible magic systems that we know of so far.

I also agree that Awakening is more of a closed/internal magic system compared to Allomancy and AonDor, but I don't think that should be the reasoning to dismiss the comparison between Form and Command/Visualization. When it comes down to it, your entire theory is finding the most basic building blocks of each magic system and finding common threads. Well I think there must be a "gateway" for every magic system as one of these basic building blocks. I don't, however, think where that power comes from will be one of those basics since we've already seen opposites w/ Awakening (Internal) and Allomancy/AonDor (External).

Whoa! I just had an epiphany. In the Q&A someone asked if you could group the 16 shards into groups like Allomancy and BS says "Good question...RAFO". Soooo, maybe we will get to see other Internal magic systems eventually and compare them to Awakening. Could Hemalurgy be considered Internal? Since the person just gets the power of Allomancy, and doesn't have to ingest and burn the metals... hmmmm. Sorry, mind wandering around a bit :P

Anywho, while I agree w/ what you say, I still want to believe that you can compare the Forms of Allomancy/AonDor to Awakening's Command/visualization. It's a little more complicated, but then again that complication leads to a wider range of uses.

Okay, I see where you're coming from now. I agree that the idea of "forms" and what they entail will probably be fundamental to any complete understanding of the magic systems. I misunderstood and thought that you were proposing more of a 1:1 correspondence.

EDIT: Also, interesting tidbit from the Q&A:

1. Szeth mentions that Lashings don't work with shardplate (on?). Is there any way to get around this (As in, lashing with shardplate on, or lashing people with shardplate on), and, if so, does it have anything to do with the Knights Radiant and/or their ideals?

This has to do with the nature of the magics in the cosmere. They interfere with one another. Something that contains a lot of power--we call it investiture--resists the efforts of magic to influence it. A strong spirit can interfere as well.

That's interesting. It would explain the difficulty of Pushing/Pulling on embedded metals in Allomancy. Perhaps you ought to rework your "cell" theory, Odium, and talk about relative strength of the Spiritual aspect itself?

Edited by Kurkistan
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damnation! More complexities. I'm going to struggle to place this scientifically, but I will not abandon the 'vessel' theory, even if the cell model is a bit extreme. First off:

Now color me interested from this one. I would not have picked Awakening + Surgebinding if I was to chose two fundamentally similar magic systems.

Perhaps it's the internalization and conscious reshaping of Shardic power (Breath/Stormlight). But that's not very fundamental. Unless my model of Awakening is fundamentally wrong on the Cognitive/Spiritual division (which I doubt), I don't see much simlarity on how they work, since Surgebinding so far seems to be focused around altering Spiritual aspects, while Awakening simply tacks some extra power onto Spiritual aspects while doing most of its heavy lifting in the Cognitive realm. I suppose soulcasting could be mainly Cognitive in that the "souls" of inanimate objects may stay the same when they transform.

Anyone have some thoughts on this quote?

My thought was: the colour. The colour, the colour. Gems! As soon as you said this, I thought about the colour directly impacting the system. The colour is used up in Awakening, meaning that something Physical is taken into the Spiritual, and in Surgebinding, according to my 'bend the light' theory on Soulcasting (and possibly applicable to other Surges), the white Stormlight is broken by the gem into different COLOURS, and the Spiritual is then 'passed through' the Physical to create the effect.

I'm going now to go off and create some visual aids to present my view on the Investiture resistance modelling.

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damnation! More complexities. I'm going to struggle to place this scientifically, but I will not abandon the 'vessel' theory, even if the cell model is a bit extreme. First off:

My thought was: the colour. The colour, the colour. Gems! As soon as you said this, I thought about the colour directly impacting the system. The colour is used up in Awakening, meaning that something Physical is taken into the Spiritual, and in Surgebinding, according to my 'bend the light' theory on Soulcasting (and possibly applicable to other Surges), the white Stormlight is broken by the gem into different COLOURS, and the Spiritual is then 'passed through' the Physical to create the effect.

I'm going now to go off and create some visual aids to present my view on the Investiture resistance modelling.

I shall await your pretty pretty colors. (With no 'u', you Brit <_<)

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Urgh apologies the visual aids will be slow in the coming, just received a new edit of my dissertation back from the University editorial and there are some hefty revisions to go over! I'll try to make some time for them, but in between I'll punctuate the long week ahead of me with a few concise comments.

To begin with (and in fact end with), on a childish note:

The-Oxford-Colour-Spelling-Dictionary-Waite-Maurice-9780198600305.jpg

It's COLOUR, you American! :P Even the dictionary says so!

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Urgh apologies the visual aids will be slow in the coming, just received a new edit of my dissertation back from the University editorial and there are some hefty revisions to go over! I'll try to make some time for them, but in between I'll punctuate the long week ahead of me with a few concise comments.

To begin with (and in fact end with), on a childish note:

The-Oxford-Colour-Spelling-Dictionary-Waite-Maurice-9780198600305.jpg

It's COLOUR, you American! :P Even the dictionary says so!

Understandable. This is a big old topic, so I think it can keep for a bit until you have your diagrams done.

Oh, you mean this dictionary?

The-Oxford-Color-Dictionary-Thesaurus-9780198600381.jpg

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Understandable. This is a big old topic, so I think it can keep for a bit until you have your diagrams done.

Oh, you mean this dictionary?

The-Oxford-Color-Dictionary-Thesaurus-9780198600381.jpg

Oh, Oxford, thou hast betrayed me! Oxford is an English Standard University though! In fact, they define the English language... how could they print such blasphemy?

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Oh, Oxford, thou hast betrayed me! Oxford is an English Standard University though! In fact, they define the English language... how could they print such blasphemy?

English is lucky to be as standard as it is. When I got the really in-depth German dictionaries, the variety in usage and pronunciation was much more regional than most forms of modern English.

And I'll admit that American and British English have drifted apart a bit! Take joy in our diversity, that's what I say.

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A bit? I'm sure in China some of them can't understand each other speaking the same language, so while I might groan about Americans converting our pure, righteous words (I mean, come on, did you guys start to replace 's' with 'z' just so you could get higher scores in Scrabble?), at least the essence is preserved.

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Not to interrupt lingual discourse, but I've recently been reminded that we have a deadline fast approaching. Yados has somehow time-traveled and acquired The Emperor's Soul, which contains oodles and oodles of of Realmatic goodies according to him. I stopped reading after that point in order to keep my thought processes pure and to avoid spoilers (and I will bring the wrath of Marsh down on anyone who spoils a book for me).

This is a timely prod to get us generating falsifiable predictions for TES. All other theorizing ought to temporarily be put on hold (jot it down in a .txt in the meantime, if you must) so that we can focus on predicting something from TES based on this theory, before we've actually read the book.

I'm sure that TES will provide oodles of quotes and facts and stuff that will help us refine this and many other theories greatly, but the real prize here is to use an existing theory to make an accurate prediction which is not otherwise necessitated by any currently known facts.

*Begins thinking* :mellow:

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  • 4 months later...

Haven't had time to read the whole thread to see if this has been addressed, but I would like to propose a simple amendment to the original concept that I think might help tie things together. What if, rather than changing the Spiritual make-up of things, the various magic systems alter the way the Cognitive Realm interprets that data. This would make Shai's comments about Forgery altering things in the Cognitive Realm fit into the theory overall. To make the alterations stick, the Spiritual component of the magic helps tie the new interpretations of the Spiritual commands to their Physical manifestations.

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I have to say, TES actually supports Kurkistan's interpretation. Even quite "inanimate" things can view themselves in complicated ways. It would not surprise me at all if, say, a stick were capable of copying a small piece of a humans cognition in order to obey commands. After all, the way other people view and understand a wall affects how the wall views itself. A bit of the Dor gives it the energy to change. Done! It actually changes.

Perhaps I should put it another way. The Breaths provide motivation to both the cognitive and physical realms, which in turn allows the two reams to change. Because the Awakener is transferring Breath into something, this provides the object with the motivation to do as the Awakener asks. Because the object wants to do as the Awakener asks, it naturally looks for, and finds, the cognitive image the Awakener is projecting at it, and then does it to the best of its ability. This probably expands the cognitive aspect of the awakened object while it is awakened, just like Vin and Sazed's minds were expanded when they took Preservation's power.

The trouble with this is the fact that lots of breath doesn't seem to give a big cognitive boost. The response to this is two-fold: The relative change in cognitive power is probably fairly small. It's a big jump from a rope to a fork-lift, but both of those are teensy compared to human cognition as a whole. Secondly, the command which gave the breath to the person doesn't require the person to become more intelligent. There's no motivation to make the change, and so it doesn't happen.

Does this mean you could increase your intelligence with breath if you knew what you were doing? It's possible, likely even, but it would probably have to be either deliberate (an undiscovered command), or a strong side effect.

Incidentally, "Strong side effect" is probably what happened with Nightblood; basically, the destroy evil command was so strong, and the motivation behind it so extensive (1000 breath's), it forced Nightblood into a state of constant cognition. This would leave a mark after a while, I would guess. Nightblood probably is changing.

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@Sombrero

Perhaps this is simply me forgetting obvious facts again, but I don't think we ever get a definitive answer as to what Forging actually changes. Shai talks about giving the Emperor a new "soul", but we know from Brandon that someones's post-death identity includes their Cognitive aspect, so that doesn't restrict us to the Spiritual. However, the Cognitive realm seems to mainly function as a restriction on what Forging can do, serving as the judge of "plausibility" and seemingly remaining unchanged in the face of Forging. If it were the case that Forging affected the Cognitive, then the formerly-stained-glass window would have "seen itself" as a normal window as soon as Shai first Forged it, with nothing to make the Forging revert now that the Cognitive "judge" has been replaced. However, this is not the case, and we see the window's Cognitive aspect remain unchanged in the face of Shai's Forging, rejecting her attempts to make the window an ordinary one.

Also, I was mostly kidding when I suggested that you take a crack at this theory. I barely understand all its permutations at this point, after so long away from it. I feel a bit bad for dragging a poor innocent into the middle of all this. ;)

@happyman

Thanks for coming to my rescue, happyman. :)

A few comments, though.

"Motivation, Execution, Consequence" is just a catchy way of describing the theory; it's not necessarily the best terminology to use when actually discussing it.

The way I've modeled it (and with much discussion to be had about it, so this is by no means scripture) is that the Cognitive re-write is powered by color, while Breaths are required to power more and more complex Cognitive aspects. The mere presence of the Breaths themselves does not increase the power of one's Cognitive aspect, it simply enables already "powerful" Cognitive aspects to function. This may well be wrong, though, considering Windrunner's Spiritual Constructs theory and the fact that Syl's ability to "think in the Physical realm" is increased by bonding with Kaladin. But then we have the existence of primarily Cognitive beings, which would seem to contradict the aforementioned theory, so...

Nightblood may be changing, actually. He suggests to Vasher that Vasher simply throw him into a room with the God King and, if he's evil, the God King will pick Nightblood up and be killed. "This gave Vasher pause. Colors, he thought. The sword seemed to be getting more subtle each year, though Vasher knew he was just imagining things, projecting. Awakened objects didn't change or grow, they simply were what they were." (pg 507). Given the inadequacy of even Vasher's understanding of BioChromatics, he could be wrong and Nightblood could be (ever so slowly) developing.

I hereby formally welcome everyone back to the madhouse, by the way.

Edited by Kurkistan
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Let me try to flesh out my thoughts in relation to Forgery just a little bit more. I thinking that perhaps the Spiritual aspect is where we get what is considered plausible and what the thing "wants" to be as described by Shai. This gives us what is available to be manipulated in the Cognitive Realm. I'll need to grab the book again to start forming a more coherent interpretation and fact checking, but I think I can probably work something out. And I don't really care if you were mostly joking. I really like this and enjoy the thought of working it around a bit.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I have, sadly, not the time to read this thread in its entirety, but I have read the initial post. If I go over ground that's been covered, please forgive me. That said, I have a suggestion for discussion.

[disclaimer]

I have not thought through the full ramifications of this, or any further permutations. I have not given this nearly the same level of thought that the initial theory obviously had invested into it.

[/disclaimer]

How would the theory be affected if say, instead of the Spiritual Realm containing the 'source code' as it were, the Spiritual Realm is simply a homogenous mass of spiritual energy, which form the building blocks of the Cosmere (in much the same way as sub-atomic particles do under current theory)?

Basically the only fundamental difference to your theory is that the initial blueprint, as well as the computation, both exist in the Cognitive realm. It's a small change, but with potentially large ramifications.

The main reason I suggest this is the Harmony quote you linked to earlier which states that the Cognitive realm controls the spiritual energy the exists in all things. I believe this resolves the discrepancy without Sazed having to be wrong.

So how would this work? Essentially, as I see it, the homogenous Spirit-bits can be made into anything, force, object, or otherwise, in the Cosmere, and it's the Cognitive aspect that decides what form the Spiritual energy should take. So although Gravity (and all other forces) are still composed of Spiritual energy, it only BECOMES gravity because of the Cognitive imperative acting on it. Changing the cognitive instruction would then change how the (force, object, whatever) acts or appears.

In the case of things like Stormlight, it may be that this is an almost pure form of Spiritual energy, which can temporarily overrule normal Cognitive laws of gravity locally etc. due to the power infusion, but one which is inherently unstable in certain forms in the Physical realm (which explains why the effects don't last, as the Spiritual energy decays).

This also works (I think) with our understanding of Forging, where changing the Cognitive blueprint of an item changes the object itself.

It would also mean the Dor is, essentially, a pure flow of Spirit, which only does anything when given a Cognitive imperative (via Aons).

I've not considered how this affects Shardblades or Awakening, though I can see Breath being a more stable form of Spirit than Stormlight. The cost reduction in Breath for the correct Command or shape could also be seen as less energy (Spirit) needed to power a form which is more efficient Cognitively (requires less code re-writing to make it work, if you will).

I invite you all to dismember this theory brutally ^_^ Show no mercy!

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@Sombrero

I am still awaiting your follow-up. I think Forging works primarily on Spiritual aspects (Spiritual Identity, precisely), but some Cognitive-shenanigans is possible, since we see memory being messed with directly.

Personally, I think the memory bit is more of a "justification" for changing Identity (in order to get past the "plausibility check") more so than the real goal of the Forgeries we've seen, so it is probably secondary, in that regard, and thus not the primary cause for changes in identity which accompany changes in memory (see: Gaotona's personality immediately being affected by Shai's "brother died" stamp, without any need for Gaotona to access or process the memory beforehand).

Yes, this kind of theorizing is inordinately fun, I'll admit. That's why I spend far too much time doing it. :D

@Senor Fresh

I have, sadly, not the time to read this thread in its entirety, but I have read the initial post. If I go over ground that's been covered, please forgive me. That said, I have a suggestion for discussion.

The initial post covers most of it.

If you care to read on (though I wouldn't blame you if you didn't: there is a lot of it) I've acquired a bit of subtlety since then, TES has thrown things in a new (though I don't think contradictory) light, and my Awakening section also served to clarify some of my meanings, but the meat is in the OP. There is the quagmire of my war with Nepene--which provides an exhaustive account of my theory of Awakening, but little else of value (totally not biased here)--then some thought-provoking discussion with Odium's Shard after that.

[disclaimer]

I have not thought through the full ramifications of this, or any further permutations. I have not given this nearly the same level of thought that the initial theory obviously had invested into it.

[/disclaimer]

The initial theory had a lot of thought because I had far too much free time on my hands. Better to get something on paper so people can discuss it than slowly mull over it for months and then mega-avalanche everyone. (*cough cough*)

How would the theory be affected if say, instead of the Spiritual Realm containing the 'source code' as it were, the Spiritual Realm is simply a homogenous mass of spiritual energy, which form the building blocks of the Cosmere (in much the same way as sub-atomic particles do under current theory)?

Basically the only fundamental difference to your theory is that the initial blueprint, as well as the computation, both exist in the Cognitive realm. It's a small change, but with potentially large ramifications.

The main reason I suggest this is the Harmony quote you linked to earlier which states that the Cognitive realm controls the spiritual energy the exists in all things. I believe this resolves the discrepancy without Sazed having to be wrong.

Sazed needn't be wrong, merely incomplete. We have several tripartite definitions of the Realms, each of which describes a slightly different aspect of them. Here are the three I can think of off the top of my head:

Shai: “All things exist in three Realms, Gaotona. Physical, Cognitive, Spiritual. The Physical is what we feel, what is before us. The Cognitive is how an object is viewed and how it views itself. The Spiritual Realm contains an object’s soul—its essence—as well as the ways it is connected to the things and people around it.”
(53, TES ePub)
Sazed: I have come to see that each power has three aspects: a physical one, which can be seen in the creations made by Ruin and Preservation; a spiritual one in the unseen energy that permeates all of the world; and a cognitive one in the minds which controlled that energy.
(the one you are referencing, obviously)
Brandon: In the Cosmere, a person has three sets of genetic material. Biological DNA, Personality/Cognative self, Spiritual Soul. All are influenced by heritage and parents. All all are also influenced by the land you are born in. A Punnett square wouldn't cover it. Think of a 4-dimensional Punnett square.
(A tweet answering a question about genetics, I believe).

Two of them reference the soul, one defining it further as an the essence of an object. That same one, from the most knowledgeable Realmaticist (totally just made that name up) we've yet heard from, also included connections.

In fact, I hereby retroactively pat myself on the back for the "connections" bit. That's the kind of thing I talked about to justify gravity being called a "spiritual gravitational bond" in the WoK Ars Arcanum. I think I was a bit off in the OP, though, in that the "ruleset" of the Spiritual Realm may be better described as a set of identical "connections" so far as natural laws are concerned. Although, perhaps the ruleset is a high-order directive, but practially implemented using individual connections.

So Sazed wasn't "wrong"; and the fact that we know gravitational bonds, as well as all other kinds of identity and connections, are based in the Spiritual argues strongly against putting all the complexity into the Cognitive and leaving the Spiritual as a simple well of power.

So how would this work? Essentially, as I see it, the homogenous Spirit-bits can be made into anything, force, object, or otherwise, in the Cosmere, and it's the Cognitive aspect that decides what form the Spiritual energy should take. So although Gravity (and all other forces) are still composed of Spiritual energy, it only BECOMES gravity because of the Cognitive imperative acting on it. Changing the cognitive instruction would then change how the (force, object, whatever) acts or appears.

In the case of things like Stormlight, it may be that this is an almost pure form of Spiritual energy, which can temporarily overrule normal Cognitive laws of gravity locally etc. due to the power infusion, but one which is inherently unstable in certain forms in the Physical realm (which explains why the effects don't last, as the Spiritual energy decays).

This also works (I think) with our understanding of Forging, where changing the Cognitive blueprint of an item changes the object itself.

It would also mean the Dor is, essentially, a pure flow of Spirit, which only does anything when given a Cognitive imperative (via Aons).

I've not considered how this affects Shardblades or Awakening, though I can see Breath being a more stable form of Spirit than Stormlight. The cost reduction in Breath for the correct Command or shape could also be seen as less energy (Spirit) needed to power a form which is more efficient Cognitively (requires less code re-writing to make it work, if you will).

This is all good analysis, just sadly addressing a state of affairs which is not the case in the Cosmere as we know it. If you came over to the dark light side, you could do much evil good with your powers! *cackle cackle*

I have some thoughts on Forging hidden over here somewhere, I think.

I invite you all to dismember this theory brutally ^_^ Show no mercy!

I hope I wasn't too harsh. ;)

EDIT: Wow, lots of typos. I apologize.

Edited by Kurkistan
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@Sombrero

If you care to read on (though I wouldn't blame you if you didn't: there is a lot of it) I've acquired a bit of subtlety since then, TES has thrown things in a new (though I don't think contradictory) light, and my Awakening section also served to clarify some of my meanings, but the meat is in the OP. There is the quagmire of my war with Nepene--which provides an exhaustive account of my theory of Awakening, but little else of value (totally not biased here)--then some thought-provoking discussion with Odium's Shard after that.

I will eat my shoes if it involves removing a soul. Read the descriptions we have on TES. It's all about creating a fully functional new soul and sticking it into an empty shell.

She’d removed her Mark once out, however. Thinking like the beggar was . . . uncomfortable.

She removes her soul. As you said, she creates several fully functional souls out of soulstone and sticks them into people.

I think you owe me some shoe eating. As an honorable man I am sure you will not try to avoid the eating of shoes.

Our discussion did cover some useful ground. For example with reference to the rpg and breaths you can steal a lot of attributes- strength, emotional fortitude. We also talked about how breaths worked- a lot of quotes about how they imitated human form.

I'm not sure how his theory would be distinguished from ours though. If gravity happens because the earth sees itself as connected to a person (cognitive) and so uses spirit power to connect itself what would be the difference between that and if gravity happens because the earth is connected to people (spiritual) and so exerts a spiritual attraction.

Does a breath increase emotional fortitude because spiritual power increases emotional fortitude or because cognition arranges spiritual power to increase emotional fortitude?

It is clear that much spirit energy is controlled by cognition, but I am not sure what test you could do to see how much. That is the mark of a theory. It is testable.

Edit. I do agree with Kurkistan that it is likely that the spiritual realm has innate bonding qualities, the quotes clearly say that, I'm just not sure how you would test that they weren't a result of the cognitive realm.

Edited by Nepene
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The Spiritual Realm contains an object’s soul—its essence—as well as the ways it is connected to the things and people around it.

Curses! My entire theory-jack undone in a single line :P

I'm still curious as to exactly where the theory differs from the correct interpretation - as you listed in the main thread that Sanderson has said you're 'along the right lines' then perhaps a minor tweak somewhere is all it needs. I'll keep trying I guess :P

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