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Wax's Spike


Cam

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So, since I believe it is confirmed that Wax's earring is a spike, what do you think it actually is?

My guess is it has something to do with his incredible marksmanship.

I don't know what metal that would be. Probably one of the newer metals, with as yet unknown hemalurgic properties.

Edited by Cam
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From memory it was one of the Inquisitors from HoA spikes that had been recovered and made into earrings, so it's unlikely to be a new metal. I think I remember it being pewter but that could just be conjecture on my part.
My belief was that it held a small amount of Allomantic Steel to increase his abilities in that regards a bit, although given how rarely he wears it I doubt it would significantly improve much of anything.

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He doesn't wear it most times as Cam says, so it wouldn't explain his marksmanship.

 

As WEZ says, pewter seems likely because of how he was suddenly able to handle Miles' beating while in the mists and then suddenly felt his wounds and basically collapsed after the mists went away. He had the earring in at that point.

 

His wounds suddenly seemed to crash down upon him. He didn’t know if it was the mists, some action of Harmony, or simple adrenaline that had helped him ignore them for a time. But he hadn’t been healed. His side screamed from where he’d been shot, and his leg and arm had been burned and scraped raw by the explosion. He’d been clipped by bullets in the thigh and the arm. And now, Miles’s beating. It overwhelmed him, and he groaned, slumping down, struggling to merely remain conscious.

Edited by Moogle
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I've seen discussion of this before.  My thought was that it probably carries a small hemalurgical charge, but that the real purpose of it is just to make it easier for Harmony to communicate with someone (the way it is easier for Ruin with someone who is spiked).  So what the charge is is probably almost irrelevant, and it seems to me that it has probably decayed some in the 300 years since it was created.

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Does it have to be allomantic? Could it not just be physical strength like from a koloss

Could be but I don't think Inquisitors often had those. And again, the charge would be so depleted that it likely matters little what it contains.

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Could be but I don't think Inquisitors often had those. And again, the charge would be so depleted that it likely matters little what it contains.

 

Well... I'm personally not as sure as other people that it was allomantic pewter, but this unfortunately is not a good reason it can't be. We know charges in hemalurgic spikes deplete when they're out of a body, but we also know Vin's earring worked at near full-power despite being out of her body for years; the Era 1 trilogy makes it seem as though seconds matter. We do know that there are circumstances that cause hemalurgic spikes to lose power, but it's also obvious that other circumstances cause them not to lose power. Also, Ruin was able to power hemalurgy the way Preservation could fuel allomancy, so perhaps the answer is simply "God did it".

 

What exactly is the case made for the spike granting pewter? I seem to recall people saying it was how long he survived being beaten up by Miles, but wasn't that after the mists had left? Or something about him carrying his own guns while heavy, but didn't he raise his arms high over his head while really heavy at the wedding?

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Why do you say Vin's earring was at near full-power?
In terms of granting pewter I'm not particularly convinced, I think it's likely one of the physical Allomantic metals but I wouldn't say it was necessarily pewter.

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The death of that sister - and subsequent inheritance of power via the Hemalurgic spike used to kill that sister - left her twice as good at burning bronze as a typical Mistborn.

 

Epigraph of chapter 73, Hero of Ages.

 

The rest of the epigraph, and the epigraph of chapter 45, might shed a bit of context if you're really interested, but my heat is busted and my fingers are too cold to transcribe.

 

Granted, this could have been the Hero of Ages making a generalization. I could see justification that the spike degraded as much as it  was gonna, and that at a minimum it was still enough to let her pierce copperclouds. However, on balance, without compelling reason I see no reason to doubt someone in a position to know exactly how hemalurgy works, who had no real reason to obfuscate the truth when "just enough of a boost to pierce copperclouds" would have been just as easy to say.

 

I admit it's not a slam dunk. I could see someone remaining a bit skeptical. I'm not sure I think anything less believing than skeptical is a reasonable interpretation of the text, however.

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Epigraph of chapter 73, Hero of Ages.

 

The rest of the epigraph, and the epigraph of chapter 45, might shed a bit of context if you're really interested, but my heat is busted and my fingers are too cold to transcribe.

 

Granted, this could have been the Hero of Ages making a generalization. I could see justification that the spike degraded as much as it  was gonna, and that at a minimum it was still enough to let her pierce copperclouds. However, on balance, without compelling reason I see no reason to doubt someone in a position to know exactly how hemalurgy works, who had no real reason to obfuscate the truth when "just enough of a boost to pierce copperclouds" would have been just as easy to say.

 

I admit it's not a slam dunk. I could see someone remaining a bit skeptical. I'm not sure I think anything less believing than skeptical is a reasonable interpretation of the text, however.

 

The other theory I've seen bandied about regarding Hemalurgic decay is that it's only a problem right after the spike has been created, and once it's bonded to a person, the decay ceases, even if it's removed from them for a period of time.  This would explain both why Vin's spike maintained its power level and how Wax could get a measurable boost from such an old one.

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I happen to subscribe to this theory. (about halfway through this admittedly very long post)

 

I still think there's a few unanswered questions regarding Wax's earring. Three hundred years passed, and how many different hemalurgic hosts for that one earring? Does it work differently if the current host is not the original host? It might be as simple as "decay stops, forever, the instant any one person bonds the spike, regardless of what happens thereafter." I'd be a little surprised if that were the case.

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Decay by definition in math means always getting smaller but never approaching zero. A hemuralgic spike will always be a hemuralgic spike

Yea at this point I doubt it would be good for much more then talking to Sazed but even then conversing with a god is a pretty handy ability.

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I admit it's not a slam dunk. I could see someone remaining a bit skeptical. I'm not sure I think anything less believing than skeptical is a reasonable interpretation of the text, however.

 

The law of Hemalurgic Decay would suggest that no matter what that Vin should be less than twice as good at burning bronze. Or, if you're suggesting that Vin's sister was stronger at her at Allomancy by the exact amount Hemalurgic decay would lose and thus this would leave Vin at, then I'm going to be very skeptical without a direct WoB.

 

Sazed is very clear that you can't just get around this:

Spikes made from other metals steal Feruchemical abilities. For example, all of the original Inquisitors were given a pewter spike, which—after first being pounded through the body of a Feruchemist—gave the Inquisitor the ability to store up healing power. (Though they couldn’t do so as quickly as a real Feruchemist, as per the law of Hemalurgic decay.) This, obviously, is where the Inquisitors got their infamous ability to recover from wounds quickly, and was also why they needed to rest so much.

 

Marsh confirms:

And so, Marsh had come to harvest the man’s power and draw it into the spike. It seemed something of a waste to him. Hemalurgy—particularly Allomantic imbues—was much more potent when one could drive the spike through the victim’s heart and directly into a waiting host. That way, very little of the Allomantic ability was lost.

 

Care is taken when creating an Inquisitor to make sure there is a near-instant transfer of spike from donor to recipient, and even they can't escape the decay. Not to mention that Vin's earring was very small, which Marsh again notes would increase the decay factor relative to a big spike.

 

Not to take this discussion to that topic again, but I suspect Sazed was being inexact just to be as brief as possible, much like it seems likely he was a little wrong about TLR being exactly as strong as a lerasium Mistborn. (I contend that he was at least slightly stronger due to the power of the Well, but it is likely he was slightly weaker too. I find it ridiculously unlikely he was exactly as strong, as the epigraphs say.)

 

After all, in this epigraph, he says she'd be less than twice as strong:

A man with a given power—such as an Allomantic ability—who then gained a Hemalurgic spike granting that same power would be nearly twice as strong as a natural unenhanced Allomancer. An Inquisitor who was a Seeker before his transformation would therefore have an enhanced ability to use bronze. This simple fact explains how many Inquisitors were able to pierce copperclouds.

 

(And, not to take the discussion to Hemalurgic decay rates again, since we've hashed that out, but I am quite confident spikes will continue to decay when out of the body period. I don't believe it stops after you stick it in a person once. If this were true, people would be used as temporary recipients the instant a spike was made just to cap it off and there'd be no need to worry about how long it was out of the body. The only WoB I could find on it had Brandon not bothering to add any conditions on it, just saying if it was out of the body you lost power:

Maru Nui ()

What happens when you break a Hemalurgic spike or metalmind? What happens to that power?

Brandon Sanderson

Hemalurgic power can be split among multiple spikes and reforged, but remember that the longer a spike is outside of a person, the more the power is going to decay. Things like splitting it will decay it even further. Metalminds can also be broken and still be accessed.

Footnote

(source)

 

Edit: Also this:

sporkify (18 October 2008)

Before, Inquisitors had supernatural healing. How did they get the Feruchemists for the spike? Were the keepers not so hidden after all?

Brandon Sanderson (20 October 2008)

The keepers have been hunted for years. Much like skaa Allomancers, they were often captured and taken by the Inquisitors.  It didn't happen nearly as often, of course. Two things to remember, however: Not all Inquisitors had the same spikes, and spikes CAN be reused with much less effectiveness. The longer they are outside of a body, the more their power degrades.

(source)

Oudeis' link should be used for discussion of that though.)

 

Other small mistakes or points Harmony could be more clear on:

  • He implies Hemalurgy was created by design by Ruin. ("Hemalurgy is a power about which I wish I knew far less. To Ruin, power must have an inordinately high cost—using it must be attractive, yet must sow chaos and destruction in its very implementation.")
  • Contradicts his statement about Vin, ignores the fact that Allomancers can have different power levels. ("A man with a given power—such as an Allomantic ability—who then gained a Hemalurgic spike granting that same power would be nearly twice as strong as a natural unenhanced Allomancer. An Inquisitor who was a Seeker before his transformation would therefore have an enhanced ability to use bronze. This simple fact explains how many Inquisitors were able to pierce copperclouds.")
  • Implies Feruchemists were dangerous by themselves to TLR, when they're really not. The danger would be another Compounder. ("In those moments when the Lord Ruler both held the power at the Well and was feeling it drain away from him, he understood a great many things. He saw the power of Feruchemy, and rightly feared it.")
  • He is outright misleading if not blatantly lying in this one: "Yes, there are sixteen metals. I find it highly unlikely that the Lord Ruler did not know of them all. Indeed, the fact that he spoke of several on the plates in the storage caches meant that he knew at least of those.

    I must assume that he did not tell mankind of them earlier for a reason. Perhaps he held them back to give him a secret edge, much as he kept back the single nugget of Preservation's body that made men into Mistborn.

    Or, perhaps he simply decided that mankind had enough power in the ten metals they already understood."

  • Again directly contradicts himself: "I have spoken of Inquisitors, and their ability to pierce copperclouds. As I said, this power is easily understood when one realizes that many Inquisitors were Seekers before their transformation, and that meant their bronze became twice as strong."
  • Implies Snapping must be physically traumatic. ("Snapping has always been the dark side of Allomancy. A person's genetic endowment may make them a potential Allomancer, but in order for the power to manifest, the body must be put through extraordinary trauma.")
  • Implies the mists brought out Allomancy that was already there in people, despite the fact that by WoB we know the Mists made people Allomancers by adding Investiture to them. ("When Preservation set up the mists, he was afraid of Ruin escaping his prison. In those early days, before the Ascension, the mists began to Snap people as they did during our time—but this action of the mists was one of the only ways to awaken Allomancy in a person, for the genetic attributes were buried too deeply to be brought out by a simple beating.")


 

ACTUALLY ON TOPIC:

 

Wax's earring is made from a melted down Inquisitor spike. This means it grants an Allomantic or Feruchemical power (or it could be a linch pin (forget the exact name), I guess, in which case it does very little). Wax feels less pain while being beaten in the mist and wearing his earring. The pain suddenly intensifies when the mists go away, as in this is something very notable Wax talks about. This matches Vin's descriptions of how burning and not-burning pewter feels.

 

Wax says:

Wax crept up to the tunnel mouth, then stepped inside. The mists had filled it, making it difficult to see—which would work equally against Miles.

...

Wax hit Miles just before he reached Marasi. The two went down in a heap on the dirty ground, under the mists rolling across the floor.

...

As Wax tried to roll over, Miles grabbed him by the front of his shirt and hauled him up, then laid into him with a fist to the face. Marasi gasped, though she had been told to stay back. She did her part. The punch slammed Wax down to the ground, and he tasted blood. Rust and Ruin … he’d be lucky if his jaw wasn’t broken. He also felt like he’d ripped something in his shoulder. His wounds suddenly seemed to crash down upon him. He didn’t know if it was the mists, some action of Harmony, or simple adrenaline that had helped him ignore them for a time. But he hadn’t been healed. His side screamed from where he’d been shot, and his leg and arm had been burned and scraped raw by the explosion. He’d been clipped by bullets in the thigh and the arm. And now, Miles’s beating. It overwhelmed him, and he groaned, slumping down, struggling to merely remain conscious.

 

Compare to Vin:

Her pewter ran out. She slumped to the ground, a wave of exhaustion hitting her so hard that everything else seemed inconsequential. She suddenly knew she shouldn’t have relied on the pewter so much. Shouldn’t have pushed herself so hard. But, it had seemed like the only way. She felt herself begin to slip into unconsciousness.

 

Not exactly the same, but that's because she was fatigued, not seriously wounded.

 

Kelsier notes the effect:

“And, if it’s too heavy, you could hurt yourself seriously. Many a Misting Thug has shrugged off a dire wound while fighting, only to die from that same wound once their pewter ran out.”

 

Spook notes the 'lets you ignore wounds' bit:

It strengthens the body, makes it more resistant to pains and wounds. And, perhaps, helps it avoid intoxication?

 

I think it's possible Wax's directly burning the mists, though it also seems plausible he was pulling a Vin and burning trace metals in his blood and they finally ran out. Also possible he's not burning pewter I suppose, but at this point I'm going to need a pretty compelling alternative.

Edited by Moogle
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Per your instructions, I've replied to your comments on general hemalurgy in the appropriate thread. Even though you chose to address them here.

 

As to the "on topic"... does the book state that the mists actually do leave just before Wax suddenly feels the pain crash in on him?

 

I also don't see why Wax would get the endurance of pewter, but not the strength or grace of pewter in order to fight back; Vin's examples show her facing down people very large, either a huge man who beats her when she has barely any pewter herself, and even that lasts only a few seconds, or facing people who themselves have pewter. Imagine if Vin, burning pewter, were fighting Miles. She'd wipe the floor with him. His power would keep him from actually keeping any of the damage, but his skill, strength, and height and weight advantage over her would mean nothing. She'd pick him up and throw him against the wall several times. When he went to grab or kick her, she'd simply dodge, too fast for him to adjust, powered by pewter. Vin chose not to fight back against Camon because, as she explains, fighting back and winning wouldn't help her, fighting back and losing would kill her. Wax could easily have used his strength, speed and grace to get Miles into a basic armbar and just sit there holding him while Marasi flared cadmium for five or ten minutes until morning (and the conners) came. Wax did try to fight back, and he failed. He wouldn't have failed if he were enhanced by pewter. Vin could've beaten Miles, and without powers the disparity between them was huge. Wax is a big, tough guy himself, with years of fighting experience. The difference between him and Miles is comparatively slight. With any increase in strength and grace, I don't understand how Wax still loses, when he's clearly trying to win. See his various punches and attacks; he didn't decide that sit down and take it was the best idea, if he'd had the option of winning the fight, he'd've won the fight. All he needed was Miles to stay in the circle. Constantly breaking his legs, and every time he gets four feet closer to the edge just pick him up and body slam him back to the center, would have worked perfectly. The specific plan was the constables, but... why? The constables win because, together, they are strong enough to hold Miles down. There's nothing the constables together can do that one Thug couldn't also do. So, if Wax can just win, why doesn't he?

 

Pewter is like tin. Tin can only enhance all of your senses; it can't enhance just one. Pewter can't just give you endurance without power or speed; it gives you all or none. If you're so sure Wax has pewter, why doesn't the pewter make him any stronger, or faster, or more graceful?

 

Per the book: "Miles showed a flash of amusement through the annoyance. He took a few of the punches, Wax's fist growing sore in the process." Does this sound like pewter-enhanced strength to you?

 

"Wax got to his feet and rammed a fist into Miles's kidney. It didn't even get a grunt." Wax isn't faking. Even if Miles doesn't feel pain, even if the damage would have healed, Miles doesn't weigh any more than he should. A pewter-fueled punch to the center of his gravity should have, at the very least, shoved him forward, if not toppled him over or even sent him flying.

 

And... just re-read the bit about the pain all crashing down on him. Yet, no mention of the mists fleeing. Was it mentioned in the books that the mists stay "all night"? Not only was the night hours from over when the pain crashed down on him, but it was within a speed bubble, so there wasn't actually time for the mist to leave.

 

"Wax managed to get in one thrashing swing that connected. And did nothing." Miles heals, but isn't impervious. A pewter-enhanced haymaker would have broken bones, even if those bones healed a moment later. Not "nothing".

 

Interesting addition: From chapter 19. "Wax's leg was throbbing, his face scraped up, but he felt surprisingly good. He always felt that way, in the mists." Worth noting that Wax rarely if ever wears his earring; if your contention is that the earring gives him pewter, and Harmony is fueling it via mists, why does he feel the boost constantly, whether or not he's got the earring in? Based on this, even if he is stronger/faster/tougher/what have you, it's the mists that do it, independent of his earring. Your case that it's because of the earring and the mists at the same time doesn't hold water.

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As to the "on topic"... does the book state that the mists actually do leave just before Wax suddenly feels the pain crash in on him?

 

No. It's quite unclear. Wax however wonders if the mists might have been responsible for his condition, which implies he left them. Also possible is he was burning trace amounts of pewter or something.

 

I also don't see why Wax would get the endurance of pewter, but not the strength or grace of pewter in order to fight back;

 

Perhaps because his spike is a melted down Inquisitor's spike, which means it's been suffering Hemalurgic decay for years, and is thus too weak to provide noticeable strength but strong enough to provide a minor painkiller effect. (I consider there to be a difference between endurance and the ability to ignore pain.)

 

Interesting addition: From chapter 19. "Wax's leg was throbbing, his face scraped up, but he felt surprisingly good. He always felt that way, in the mists." Worth noting that Wax rarely if ever wears his earring; if your contention is that the earring gives him pewter, and Harmony is fueling it via mists, why does he feel the boost constantly, whether or not he's got the earring in? Based on this, even if he is stronger/faster/tougher/what have you, it's the mists that do it, independent of his earring. Your case that it's because of the earring and the mists at the same time doesn't hold water.

 

You're assuming here that just because he feels good that means the mists are taking away his pain (and further, independent of a possible pewter spike). Vin always felt good in the mists, too (before they turned against her, anyways). They didn't provide her any special painkiller effects. I also note here that his wounds aren't being ignored here. He still feels them. It's entirely possible that Wax doesn't burn pewter until he actually fights Miles, at which point he can actually ignore them.

 

I'm curious, are you proposing any alteratives that caused Wax to suddenly feel his pain severely? Adrenaline, like he thinks? If I had a reasonable alternative, I'd be willing to kick the pewter spike idea into the garbage.

Edited by Moogle
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I don't really have an alternative, and I don't see why one is necessary. Adrenaline frankly fits, but there's clearly something important going on there, and if it turns out to be simple adrenaline that would be a let down.

 

I'm not as comfortable as you are relying on inference about the mists suddenly disappearing when there's no good reason for them to do so, or dismissing Wax's comments how this is how he always feels in the mists, or deciding that hemalurgic decay means a spike will stop granting strength but still grant endurance.

 

Basically, I need something more than "I personally don't know what the answer is, so I'm just going to assume my personal speculation is correct." I recognize that my own speculation is just that; speculation. I don't need to say "this is what it probably is," I'm comfortable saying, "It might be one of these possibilities, or it might be something I haven't thought of/haven't had revealed to me yet." I remember the first book, where we learned that Vin could pierce copperclouds, but didn't yet have enough information to even begin to guess why that might be. That experience tells me that sometimes we get the mysteries before we're given the tools to solve them. I don't need to wait for a viable alternative, I can look at an idea and say, "this simply doesn't fit, so it's probably not true" without feeling compelled to assume that I do, in fact, know the answer.

 

So my alternative is this. In a year, when the rest of the quadrilogy comes out, we'll prolly be given the clues we need to determine what went on here. Until then, I don't feel the same compulsion you do to insist on an explanation which clearly doesn't fit, then claim it's the right one because nothing else fits better.

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  • 2 weeks later...

...

 

Ultimately, I think we've been very firmly introduced to most of the magic on Scadrial. There's still important bits to be explored, like the full extent of Hemalurgy and its limits, as well as a number of metals, but we know enough about those I think to rule out them being involved. Kelsier may have been fond of saying "there's always another secret", but I prefer "there's quite a lot of secrets, but not infinite and we know a good chunk of them". It doesn't roll of the tongue as nicely, but it is a bit more accurate in my mind.

 

We both agree that it seems likely something supernatural is probably going on with Wax for why he was able to handle the beating and ignore the pain, I think, so there's that.

 

I feel that we do know enough here to make a very educated guess. In something like Stormlight, we might not know enough about anything to be able to, say, guess what a certain black object does, but in Mistborn? I'm pretty comfortable guessing here. (No strong thoughts on how Bloody Tan's still alive, though.) There's still a significant block of probability in my mind for "other explanation I haven't thought of", but pewter from a super weak spike fits pretty well to me, even if the mists are being whacky and poorly described. I'm currently going for something like:

  • 50% chance he was burning pewter (powered either by trace metals or the mists) or the mists passive effect is something like pewter.
  • 20% chance it was just adrenaline.
  • 30% chance of something else going on.

That's how I'd sum up my information if there was forced betting going on, anyways, if I had to bet.

 

I think we've pretty much discussed this one to the ground, and will just have to wait for the books. Sorry for the late response, as I was sick and only up to the most basic of discussion here for a while (I kept messing up in other threads, no point trying on these).

Edited by Moogle
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Ultimately, I think we've been very firmly introduced to most of the magic on Scadrial. There's still important bits to be explored, like the full extent of Hemalurgy and its limits, as well as a number of metals, but we know enough about those I think to rule out them being involved.

 

You're right, we prolly already know just about everything we're ever going to learn from Scadrians. The rest of this quadrilogy, let alone the Era 3 or Era 4 trilogies, and whatever other stories may or may not get set on Scadrial in between, will prolly just be long, boring recitations of facts that we already know. Thanks for clearing this up for me, I won't bother reading them now.

 

And for the record, no, as I said I'm not sold that there is a metaphysical reason, and I didn't say I was. I said that the set up for that moment, particularly with Wax talking about how he feels in the Mists, seems like it does mean something, we just don't know what. Perhaps someone slipped him a drug, maybe it's an effect of steel savantism. It might just be direct shardic intervention, and maybe the payoff will be Wax being upset when he realizes that Sazed has been using him as a puppet. Maybe Marsh was simply nearby, Soothing Wax's pain. That would fit the scenario perfectly. We don't actually know the very moment Marasi put up her time-bubble; maybe that stopped the Soother.

 

There are now two mists. Mistborn are now impossible and we've got only speculation as to why; if a non allomancer could beget Vin with a skaa woman, it's ridiculous to assume that Spook's power was simply too weak to every produce a Mistborn heir, let alone all the nobles of Fadrex who survived the Final Ascension. There are fifteen alloys of atium we've never seen, and we know harmonium exists. We know direct shardic intervention can move planets but can't say "hello" to someone not pierced by metal. We know there's a mechanical way to access the metallic arts, and we know nothing about that. We know that metallic arts will one day power space travel. We know there are three hemalurgic constructs out of potentially thousands if not millions, and we have not the very first idea what rules or laws they follow.

 

We have not been "very firmly introduced to most of the magic on Scadrial." And what's more, you know we haven't. What you're doing, whether you're able to take a step back and realize it or not, is what you always do. You start with a conclusion. You make up your mind that such-and-such is true. Then you cherry pick evidence and try to make it look like your evidence is more than it is, and when people point out that you cannot possibly be as right as you are confident, you make flippant and flat-out wrong statements dismissing everything that disagrees with you because you know you can't address it and refute it.

 

I will never understand your compulsion to look at a question and force an answer. I do not understand why you're incapable of admitting that there is probably an answer but we don't yet have the tools to come up with it on our own. Propose theories. Speculate. Wonder. Pose rhetorical questions. Ask other people what they think. Take part in a scholarly debate where people wonder and consider and observe, comfortable with the knowledge that they might not yet have sufficient data to reach a conclusion. You don't seem to be comfortable with that scenario, so instead you say "this has to be true because I can't see another viable alternative," like you can't imagine that "we don't have the tools yet" is a viable alternative. Believe what you want. Shout it out as confidently as you can. Tell everyone that you have to be right, that admitting you don't have every fact yet isn't possible. Like I'm getting tired of telling you, you always, always do.

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...

 

I'm not sure what to say here. I don't feel like we're reading the same posts by me.

I'm perfectly comfortable naming things I'm uncertain of, that we don't know enough to explain. I mentioned two in my previous post (black sphere and Bloody Tan's survival). I don't feel the urge to explain everything when there's only limited evidence.

I don't think pewter has to be the reason for Wax. As I note in my last post, I consider there to be a 30% chance of it being something we don't know yet. I've thought of possibilities, and ranked them by likelyhood. Pewter is nowhere near 100%.

I feel like you haven't been reading my posts, or you've just been skimming them and ignoring half. This same thing happened in the other thread, where you claimed I was utterly confident Sazed was wrong in the same post I came to an explanation where Sazed was right and the same explanation fit my understanding of everything.

I'm sorry that my posts irritate you, and I'm not sure what all I can do add here. I think I'll bow out of this particular discussion for now, and more carefully evaluate joining any further ones. I think it'll make you more happy.

Edited by Moogle
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My concern wasn't the conclusion you eventually came to, my concern was the fact that you were, at any point in your thought process (much of which we got to read and which I did, in fact, read and comprehend fully) you were comfortable thinking to yourself that you were probably right and Sazed was probably wrong. The other "supporting arguments" as I point out gave you a couple of points of data from which you constructed a largely speculative model, and you convince yourself that the entire model carries with it the assurance of the few points of actual data you reference, then you say that means all the points contradict.

 

And at the end, you didn't come to your senses. You didn't realize, wait a minute, I cannot, with the few scraps of information I've got, be more correct than the God specifically of this magic.

 

My problem wasn't your conclusion. It wasn't that you eventually decided God was only a little bit wrong. My problem is your entire mindset which is totally fine with the idea that if you want to believe one thing and God says another, you have no problems whatsoever saying that God must, therefore, be wrong. You found a different flaw this time and backed away from that specific point in this specific instance, but you've since redefended the position, saying that yeah, there are totally going to be times that you're just that much better informed than God. That's what my problem was.

 

Apropos of nothing, I'm sorry if I don't always agree with you, but I assure you, I do read your posts in their entirety. I might only respond to a few of the points, if we agree on the others or if I'm simply willing to stipulate that they're largely irrelevant (or sometimes if I realize I've just written nine thousand words and aint nobody gonna read that). And yes, there are absolutely times I'll come home after a long hard day and realize your post is... let's say comprehensive, and I'll skim it, but in those cases I will never respond, at the least I won't respond without saying something like, "I only have time to glance at this quickly but...". I would never dream of doing you the insult or disservice of disagreeing with you if I'm not going to at least read what you write and make my best effort at understanding it; I'm not going to claim I've never once misunderstood a point someone's tried to make, but I do try. I rarely agree with you but you write well, eloquently and fully, and sometimes you even cite your sources. While I'm not always happy to hear what you have to say, it's never a chore just to get through your well-organized and coherent thoughts. While it would be wonderful if we lived in a world where such traits were prevalent, they are not, and I don't mention as often as I should that I'm grateful you possess them.

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