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Can Trees Think?


Windrunner

  

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  1. 1. Is Kwaan studying whether trees can think coincidence or Realmatics?

    • Coincidence
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    • Realmatics
    • Windrunner is a silly pants.


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Alright, late in our sleep deprived chatroom talk, we got on the topic of Mistborn. Nesh mentioned this portion of an epigraph, talking about something totally unrelated.

Not so Kwaan. In a way, he is as unlikely a prophet as I am a hero. He never had an air of ceremonious wisdom - nor was he even a religious scholar. When we first met, he was studying one of his ridiculous interests in the great Khlenni library - I believe he was trying to determine whether or not trees could think.

Chaos and I were both stunned by that last bit. Anyone who knows Realmatics can tell you that it's virtually certain that everything exists in all three Realms. So naturally a tree would have a Cognitive aspect. Probably one stronger then your average rock anyway, since it takes spiritual energy to make life. (Ruin and Preservation on Scadrial) So Kwaan was poking around in Realmatics.

Or was he? There's the distinct possibility that this is all one crazy coincidence, fueled by exhaustion. I'm feeling pretty optimistic that this was intentional, but then I'm not exactly unbiased either. I've tweeted about it to Brandon, but he may not respond. So what is it, simple coincidence or a fun little easter egg?

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I'm beginning to think that there is very little 'coincidence' where Brandon's writing is involved. After you first introduced me to realmatics I started paying attention, and I am definitely of the opinion that Kwaan was investigating this. Of course there is no real way to be sure, barring Brandon stepping in and giving a definite answer ;)

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Well, we know Kwaan is a reasonably powerful Feruchemist, and Feruchemy has tendrils in all the major Realms. Even with just the ten basic metals, there'd be enough to give Kwaan a major clue about Realmatics. Furthermore, this being Realmatics would fit nicely with the First Rule of Mistborn: "There's always another secret."

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Hroom. (Had to be said.) I'd bet its realmatic in a very loose and referential way. Nothing important. Just a little joke from Brandon to himself.

Probably this. When realmatic theory is eventually explained in-depth, instead of just little bits and pieces, then we'll probably have to re-read all of the cosmere books to find little hints like this one that we might have missed otherewise.

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I was very split on this one, but I finally decided to go with Realmatics. Of course, in the Cosmere, this is about as broad as saying that he was studying "biology" or "physics," but what pushed me over the edge was the fact that, as Windrunner said, in the Cosmere trees might well be able to think a little, and Kwaan finding evidence of this would be well within what little we know about how the Cosmere works. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he had stumbled on to a bit of Realmatic theory (specifically, something about the cognitive realm) and was following up on it.

It would be kind of like a real-world historical figure discovering magnetism and trying to work out what was going on without our modern detailed theory...which is exactly what happened historically, and eventually led to our modern theory.

The more I think about this theory, the more I like it. It was just an oblique reference to the nature of the world which was meant to sound silly, but really wasn't. It does give us a bit more, though. It tells us about the philosophical developments on Scadrial immediately before TLR. I wonder if post-HoA folks have managed to rediscover any of this stuff.

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Alright so after a discussion in the chatroom relating to whether or not trees can think (or goblets for that matter) I continued my reread of WoK and came across an interesting tidbit regarding realmatics.

In the interlude with Geranid there was an interesting passage relating to realmatics. "I wonder if they eat in the cognitive realm. Is a food there what it sees itself as being? I'll have to read and see if anyone has ever eaten while visiting Shadesmar."

So clearly if the food can "see itself" as being anything, then it has some level of independent cognition. Now is a goblet going to stand up and start debating morality with Shallan and Jasnah? Probably not... but I believe this passage does a lot to support the main premise of realmatics.

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Trees cannot think, and I have seen no evidence anywhere that suggests they can in the cosmere. I am not disputing the idea that Kwaan was studying Realmatics. I am not disputing that everything that has a physical form has a representation within the Cognitive and Spiritual realms.

What I am disputing is the idea that inanimate objects can think. Any representation an inanimate object may have in the Cognitive realm is, as I see it, the idea of that object given a form. The physical object itself is not thinking, but someone is thinking of it, or has thought of it, and thus a shade of it enters into and remains within Shadesmar.

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Trees cannot think, and I have seen no evidence anywhere that suggests they can in the cosmere. I am not disputing the idea that Kwaan was studying Realmatics. I am not disputing that everything that has a physical form has a representation within the Cognitive and Spiritual realms.

What I am disputing is the idea that inanimate objects can think. Any representation an inanimate object may have in the Cognitive realm is, as I see it, the idea of that object given a form. The physical object itself is not thinking, but someone is thinking of it, or has thought of it, and thus a shade of it enters into and remains within Shadesmar.

agreed I don't think the thinking or not was important part. rather the fact that Kwaan was possibly studying something realmatic. If he was the man was rather clued in about things somehow. Realized the phrophecies were beig changed, figured out a malevolent force was behid it, that words pounded in metal couldn't be affected by this force and this possible Realmatic tidbit... this guy knows how the Cosmere works better than anyone on Scadrial that we;ve seen prior to Sazed if he was studying Reakmatics on top of what else I mentioned.

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Trees cannot think, and I have seen no evidence anywhere that suggests they can in the cosmere. I am not disputing the idea that Kwaan was studying Realmatics. I am not disputing that everything that has a physical form has a representation within the Cognitive and Spiritual realms.

What I am disputing is the idea that inanimate objects can think. Any representation an inanimate object may have in the Cognitive realm is, as I see it, the idea of that object given a form. The physical object itself is not thinking, but someone is thinking of it, or has thought of it, and thus a shade of it enters into and remains within Shadesmar.

Inanimate you say?

Not that I think that is a plant thinking, but given the Cosmere's physics I can totally see it. Plants are in fact nuts. Their ecosystem is tons more violent than ours. Every Plant is attacking or feeding off of, or infecting or something every other plant. Trees pump acids into the ground to stop other things from growing by them. Vines strangle trees. Trees have such wide toips not only to steal as much sunlight as possible, but to make it harder for plants to grow by their roots. Same reason pine needles drop everywhere.

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Inanimate you say?

Not that I think that is a plant thinking, but given the Cosmere's physics I can totally see it. Plants are in fact nuts. Their ecosystem is tons more violent than ours. Every Plant is attacking or feeding off of, or infecting or something every other plant. Trees pump acids into the ground to stop other things from growing by them. Vines strangle trees. Trees have such wide toips not only to steal as much sunlight as possible, but to make it harder for plants to grow by their roots. Same reason pine needles drop everywhere.

Inanimate |inˈanəmit|

adjective

• not alive, esp. not in the manner of animals and humans.

ORIGIN late Middle English : from late Latin inanimatus ‘lifeless,’ from in- ‘not’ + animatus (see animate )

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Trees are still alive, they grow, go through hibernation cycles, they can die. A cup, no that would not have a cognitive aspect, it doesnt grow, change, or die, but who is to say in the Cosmere that tree's don't think, it may be something as simple as "food". There is scientific studies going on now that test reactions of pain and fear in plants, so based on that I can see the merit in this.

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The idea that the entire universe is alive and has some crude consciousness is an old human one. Educated people generally don't believe it any more, but the idea that it has to be false in the Cosmere seems a bit of a jump to me. Shallan's experience with Shadesmar suggests that goblets might have a crude consciousness (if there has been a deeper debate about this somewhere, I have missed it.) If the cup does, a tree definitely does.

Even if the goblet does not, however, that does not prove that a tree doesn't. A tree is an awful lot more proactive than a goblet or piece of stone, as others have mentioned. They can experience stress and jet-lag. The term "think" is pretty vague, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if, in the Cosmere, trees have a cognitive aspect, if nothing else to decide how to grow towards the light.

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I'm with Windy on this one. Especially if you look at this quote:

ZAS678

What is the X in Aon Mea? Is it one of the Shard-pools?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Afraid not. Aon Mea references the expanded region within which the "Elantris Effect" will create Elantrians. The X is fertile valley with a high density of life, a place with a lot of cognitive activity. (Cognitive as defined by Realmatic Theory includes the 'thoughts' of all things that exist, not just human beings. The more complex the life form, the stronger its presence on the Cognitive Realm.)

Source

Pretty fantastic, huh? So yes, all things (even inanimate things) have some form of "thoughts". At the very least, this includes some semblance of self-identity (as we see with the Goblet), but I bet that a tree would also include things like "Roots should go here. There's more water there." or "If I grow taller, I'll get more sunlight." I bet some would argue that those things are just natural responses from stimuli and genetics, but I bet Realmatically that this would be included in a living creature's cognitive presence.

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This topic has been closed because of the ridiculous amount of dissent it's causing. I'm all for healthy debate, but its been taken too far this time. We obviously don't have enough information to determine either way which is the truth, and so until we do, this topic will remain closed.

Edit: I'm sorry if I came across as harsh, or brash with my post. I saw a healthy discussion that was corroding to a point where it was little more than arguing. This was happening not only in this topic, but in the chatroom as well. I closed it because there was a lot of anger rising up in the chat about this, and I decided that it would just be better to close the topic for time being to let tempers cool. More than anything, I don't want to have anger over something so trivial end up having a negative effect on the forums.

Also, if there's something that you want to ask me about, shoot me a PM

Edited by Rubix
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