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All The Dead Gods...


Pechvarry

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Thought is the only person that I've seen thus far that has used Shattered in place of Splintered. Everywhere else I've seen it in reference to Adonalsium Shattering into Shards.

Huh, you're right. I got the term from other people using it on the boards, but it isn't as common as I had thought. And I had been convinced that the Letter used the term Shattered instead of Splintered, but a-nope.

Anywho, to try to keep things on track, the fundamental issue is that the OP suggested that all the shards were, in some way, tied up and couldn't respond. The two different types of splintering that we see (Odium splintering Devotion/Domination, and Endowment/Cultivation/Honor splintering themselves) are, at the very least, different on a matter of scale. However, these two different instances of Splintering were being conflated with each other in terms of implications. Sanderson has said that Odium wants to be the only individual at its power level. Therefore, we know that Cultivation and Honor, though splintered, retained enough power to be perceived as being equal enough by Odium, and therefor are powerful enough to still be relevant actors. We can reasonably extend this to Endowment, since its splintering is closer to the Cultivation/Honor brand, rather than the Devotion/Domination brand. The conclusion is still the same: the majority of shards we've encountered have been undamaged, and therefore we should expect that any new shards we encounter are likewise undamaged.

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As for "Chunking" I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at there. A Shard without a mind? An inactive Shard? Preservation and Ruin just appeared alike for very different reasons, so I'm not sure that one term should be used to describe the state that they were in. I'm not even sure it's necessary at all to be honest.

I'm rather against making up non-canonical terms or altering canonical ones, unless it's something really necessary (like Shardholder). We already have an extremely steep learning curve for getting into the cosmere stuff. I don't think we should make it any more complex then necessary for new members. If we're making up new terms or changing the few terms that Brandon has actually given us, things can get confusing fast, not just for new members but for everyone who wasn't there when this new or altered term was decided upon. I'd say that we're all just better of sticking to the terms Brandon gave us and creating as few unofficial ones as possible.

The "chunking" part was intended to be a bit tongue-in-cheek. I've forgotten far too much about mistborn. I'm asking what their status was: I think leras was dead, so his shard was mindlessly doing its intent. While ati's power was trapped but his mind was very capable. If a splintered Aona could provide so much magic still, just how close to shattered/splintered would the mistborn shards be considered? I would like to know if there's some critical difference.

Posted from phone, forgive formatting.

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I think the main point here is a good one, and thought provoking, although it may be more a question of what an uninhibited Shard considers ideal than a question of actual limitation. Harmony is the most powerful entity in the cosmere pretty much, and he chooses very limited intervention. In Alloy of Law, he says something along the lines of leaving people free to choose is the whole point. It seems apparent most Shards agree with this.

Also, let's take a look at the Shards we've met:

Ati/Ruin: Bound by an agreement with Preservation and further inhibited by his additional sacrifice. Separated from his Physical Aspect. Definitely limited.

Leras/Preservation: Sacrifices self to give humankind an edge over Ruin; this slight imbalance eventually leads to his death. Definitely limited.

Endowment: Appears to be fully sentient and fully empowered. Has no apparent involvement other than sending back Returned with a vague sense of purpose. Which is definitely some involvement. No limitation, but chooses only indirect involvement.

Aona/Devotion and Skai/Domination: Shattered, mindless, their power running wild. Definitely limited.

Tanavast/Honor: Shattered. Some kind of lasting contract he made with Odium appears to limit the way he can influence the planet. His splinters continue to grant access to his magic systems. Definitely limited.

Cultivation: Fully sentient and empowered to the best of our knowledge. Is likely a central player in keeping Odium from obliterating Roshar on a whim.

That's all, right? Only two of these Shards are unimpaired. The accounting changes when you factor in Harmony, but still.

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Regarding Ruin and Preservation, keep in mind that, being Shards, we should consider them from a shardic perspective. Sazed, as Harmony, notes that Ruin was able to escape his prison in a surprisingly short period of time (Ruin also indicates the same thing). By Shardic standards, 2028 years is apparently not that long. Indeed, by human standards, that still isn’t that long (recorded history being about 12,000ish years long, give or take a few millennia, and humans themselves having existed for 2.5 million years. While there is no doubt that Ruin was effectively tied up during that time, the time frame itself was far less significant than is being implied.

Although we don’t really know how much of himself Preservation put into people, we do know that it was enough to upset the balance between him and Ruin. But, notable, we also know it wasn’t significant to leave Harmony significantly unbalanced. Preservation was also out of the game for a similar period of time as Ruin, and thus, not a significant length of time.

Honor’s an interesting case, because while he is now out of commission, it should be noted that for, apparently, much of the conflict with Odium, he was an open and powerful shard. He was occupied by the war, but that’s the exact opposite of being removed from play.

Cultivation is akin to Honor, expect it’s still alive and cultivating.

Odium’s basically in the same position as Cultivation.

Bavadin appears to be entirely a free agent.

The-third-shard-that-might-possibly-exist-on-Roshar, if it exists, appears to be as free as Odium or Cultivation.

Endowment is entirely a free agent.

Devotion is, admittedly, pining for the fjords.

Domination is exhausted from a prolonged squawk.

Only two shards were significantly impaired, and now with Honor’s death, three (we don’t really know if Honor-the-hostless-shard is all dead or just mostly dead). Of those limited, that is specifically because they’re fighting Odium. They haven’t been removed from play, but are currently in play.

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I think the main point here is a good one, and thought provoking, although it may be more a question of what an uninhibited Shard considers ideal than a question of actual limitation. Harmony is the most powerful entity in the cosmere pretty much, and he chooses very limited intervention. In Alloy of Law, he says something along the lines of leaving people free to choose is the whole point. It seems apparent most Shards agree with this.

Also, let's take a look at the Shards we've met:

Ati/Ruin: Bound by an agreement with Preservation and further inhibited by his additional sacrifice. Separated from his Physical Aspect. Definitely limited.

Leras/Preservation: Sacrifices self to give humankind an edge over Ruin; this slight imbalance eventually leads to his death. Definitely limited.

Endowment: Appears to be fully sentient and fully empowered. Has no apparent involvement other than sending back Returned with a vague sense of purpose. Which is definitely some involvement. No limitation, but chooses only indirect involvement.

Aona/Devotion and Skai/Domination: Shattered, mindless, their power running wild. Definitely limited.

Tanavast/Honor: Shattered. Some kind of lasting contract he made with Odium appears to limit the way he can influence the planet. His splinters continue to grant access to his magic systems. Definitely limited.

Cultivation: Fully sentient and empowered to the best of our knowledge. Is likely a central player in keeping Odium from obliterating Roshar on a whim.

That's all, right? Only two of these Shards are unimpaired. The accounting changes when you factor in Harmony, but still.

I think we are still running into a semantics game for something that is still pretty much an Easter Egg for his most fanatical readers, at this point. I may just being stubborn, but I want more WoB clarification on "splinter/ed/ing, etc.

Was Honor Splintered?

Brandon Sanderson

Was Honor Splintered? ooh someone's been paying attention, very much. I would say that yes Honor was Splintered. That is a very important question to be asking, someone really knows their stuff.

So is Honor "Shattered", or merely Tanavast is dead? We've never seen the recent aftermath of shattering ala Dominion/Devotion (which almost sound like they are returning in the latest sequel blurb), and Honor's magic appears to be returning or strengthening, not fragmenting/changing. I mean, just how old are the dreams, based on their ancient content?

We have seen, however, what happens when dead Shard bodies start falling out of the sky. And this seems similar, imo.

Is Odium just coming after Cultivation now? Or does Honor still have a role to play in this?

Edited by Voldy
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Harmony is the most powerful entity in the cosmere pretty much, and he chooses very limited intervention.[/Quote]

Last I knew, the duality of his shards could be the cause if this. I find myself wondering if this was intentional. If there was some intelligent design dictating where all the proactive shards would go to cancel each other out, while the passive shards were deemed safe by themselves.

Or it just makes for a better story. That seems the most logical connection, for now.

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It does seem that the technical term is splintered. I guess shattered only applies to Adonalsium? In any case, it's true that we only know of two (likely three) Shards we have been splintered, even though most Shards we have met were limited in some form. Also, I think we can say with some certainty that Honor is splintered and Tanavast is dead. Based on Elantris, it appears the the state of the Shard doesn't particularly affect its associated magic system. A dead Shardholder means there is no one to wield the god-like powers, and a splintered shard means there are no god-like powers to wield. The term splintered would imply that a Shard cannot be destroyed in any sense, only dispersed, so it would continue to fuel its magic system infinitely, only without any sentient oversight.

We don't really know anything about the effect of the juxtaposition of Harmony's Shards. I would say the way he chooses to interact is representative of his personal philosophy, and not some cancelling-out effect his Shards are having. And proactive vs. passive Shards is an interesting distinction.

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It seems to me that the Heralds are voluntary splinters of Honor made before Odium splintered the Shard.

This WOK death quote chapter lead-in seems relevant to me.

Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns.

The voice from Kaladin's highstorm dream likewise.

ODIUM COMES. MOST DANGEROUS OF ALL THE SIXTEEEN. YOU WILL NOW GO.

and

ODIUM REIGNS

The above quotes are evidence but not proof.

There is a Brandon quote about there having been three shards on Roshar. There are various reasons to believe that they are Honor, Cultivation and Odium. There is a Brandon quote that Honor was splintered by Odium.

To me, they suggest that Cultivation is splintered or has left. Brandon has also said that the spren are of Honor and Cultivation. So, if you believe that Cultivation left, why would her spren still be everywhere? So I think Cultivation is splintered.

Another implication of the highstorm dream voice is that Odium is very present.

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It seems to me that the Heralds are voluntary splinters of Honor made before Odium splintered the Shard.

This WOK death quote chapter lead-in seems relevant to me.

The voice from Kaladin's highstorm dream likewise.

and

The above quotes are evidence but not proof.

There is a Brandon quote about there having been three shards on Roshar. There are various reasons to believe that they are Honor, Cultivation and Odium. There is a Brandon quote that Honor was splintered by Odium.

To me, they suggest that Cultivation is splintered or has left. Brandon has also said that the spren are of Honor and Cultivation. So, if you believe that Cultivation left, why would her spren still be everywhere? So I think Cultivation is splintered.

Another implication of the highstorm dream voice is that Odium is very present.

If so, why is Odium still here? He didn't wipe Elantris world(Sel?), why Roshar?

I don't think Cultivation is out of this fight, nor Honor really.

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If so, why is Odium still here? He didn't wipe Elantris world(Sel?), why Roshar?

Of course, I'm just guessing based on scattered tidbits of a breadcrumb trail.

If I were arrogant enough to try to answer, I would say that Odium:

  1. has the tattered remains of the Oathpact to clean up (which may still constrain him in some way).
  2. can assure himself that Honor and Cultivation will never be taken up by making the planet uninhabitable.

But being arrogant is bad, so I would never do that.

I don't think Cultivation is out of this fight, nor Honor really.

I agree completely, that is what makes the story compelling and heroic. These puny underdog creatures and Shardic remnants are trying to stop what even the intact Shards could not.

Edited by hoser
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