All The Dead Gods...

[Pechvarry]

With just a very brief amount of time with Preservation's power, Vin was able to move a planet. Shardholders don't just have far-reaching schemes. They are gods. It seems very easy to forget this when discussing Odium, or other shardholders whose status we're unaware of. But I have a feeling we know one thing: every single one is somehow "spent." Whether it's splintered, murdered; imprisoned in part or entirely, it seems every shardholder's hands are tied one way or another.

Here's the question: Is this a coincidence?

[ReaderAt2046]

With just a very brief amount of time with Preservation's power, Vin was able to move a planet. Shardholders don't just have far-reaching schemes. They are gods. It seems very easy to forget this when discussing Odium, or other shardholders whose status we're unaware of. But I have a feeling we know one thing: every single one is somehow "spent." Whether it's splintered, murdered; imprisoned in part or entirely, it seems every shardholder's hands are tied one way or another.

Here's the question: Is this a coincidence?

Your statement is not true. Endowment is at her full power and freedom (as far as we know), as are Harmony, Cultivation, and Odium.

[happyman]

Your statement is not true. Endowment is at her full power and freedom (as far as we know), as are Harmony, Cultivation, and Odium.

This is true. I would say that there are active Shards, but they are acting under restrictions we are not familiar with. Some of them, like Harmony and possibly Endowment, are probably busy with other things and/or not aware of all possible threats. Also, we don't know what it takes for Shards to travel between worlds.

As a side-note, Endowment's Shardholder's gender is not established, but the little evidence we have suggests that the Shardholder is male. (The evidence is that Siri, in Warbreaker, refers to Austre as a he. Assuming Austre is a local name for Endowment, this is literally the only canonical evidence from the Cosmere pointing either way.)

[Pechvarry]

"As far as we know" is not grounds for a blanket "this is not true" statement.

Harmony is the only shardholder I'm aware of who is completely unbroken. Yet, he's tempered by opposing intents.

Have we seen evidence of others complete?

And Odium? There's a whole thread about whether or not he's been damaged, intentionally or not. I cannot be alone in thinking it strange that someone with the ability to crash planets into their stars who also wants to break everyone else' toys is remaining so hands-off (relative of what he's capable of).

[Thought]

@Happyman, considering how long it is taking for Odium to go about shattering the other Shards, I'm guessing that Shards can't travel at significantly FTL speeds. Or, at the very least, not always.

Have we seen evidence of others complete?

The natural state of a shard is to not be broken, yes? So, being incomplete is the abnormal state, the supposition that is being put forward. As such, it isn't that we need evidence that the others are complete, but that we need evidence that a shard is incomplete. Currently we only have strong evidence of three of the knownish ten shards being damaged (Domination, Devotion, and Honor, in comparison to Endowment, Preservation, Ruin, Cultivation, Other-Roshar-Shard, Odium, and "Bavadin"). Not only do we need evidence that a shard has been damaged, but lacking that, simple statistics indicates that we should expect any given shard to be not damaged.

As for Odium, while there is a whole thread about him being damaged, it really all boils down to a single epigraph line that may or may not even be referring to him. That's poor evidence for him, and further for an argument that all the shards are "spent."

[Voidus]

"As far as we know" is not grounds for a blanket "this is not true" statement.

This is a burden of proof fallacy, since the default assumption is that a Shard would be whole (Since something has to splinter it for it to not be whole) you need to provide proof that it has been splintered not the other way.

EDIT: Darn, Ninja'd

On Odium I would guess that the reason he's holding off is the rules that bind him that Honor mentioned.

As for whether or not it's a coincidence, all the Shards we know of that have been Splintered we either know were splintered by Odium (Aona and Skai) or are highly suspected of being splintered by Odium (Honor) so no it's not a coincidence but the link is quite simply Odium, the others are all completely fine as far as we know, so I'm not sure where the partially/completely imprisoned comes into it?

Edited August 16, 2012 by Voidus

[Pechvarry]

Ok, perhaps it would help if I put this forward in a more brash manner:

I Theorize All Shardholders Have Been Reduced to a State of Forced Inactivity.

I have no evidence to put forth which could not be seen as circumstantial, at best. This is just one man's theory. And if my observation has merit, a new question opens up: why?

Why no shard-imposed utopia worlds? Why would Ruin settle down on one planet instead of trying to wreck them all? If reality is, to some extent, subjective for them, why does even Odium seem so impotent?

Aside: the partially/entirely imprisoned bit was thinking about Ruin's Well. In fact, mistborn is full if examples of only certain aspects functoning at any given time.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Pechvarry

[Windrunner]

Currently we only have strong evidence of three of the knownish ten shards being damaged (Domination, Devotion, and Honor, in comparison to Endowment, Preservation, Ruin, Cultivation, Other-Roshar-Shard, Odium, and "Bavadin").

I'm not sure that you can count a third Shard on Roshar as an undamaged Shard, considering that we don't have confirmation that it even exists, let alone that it hasn't been damaged. We know that both Cultivation and Honor have Splinters (spren, although Cultivation may not be Splintered all the way) so if there is a third Shard (which I personally doubt) it seems possible that it too is not completely whole.

[Cheese Ninja]

I'm not sure that you can count a third Shard on Roshar as an undamaged Shard, considering that we don't have confirmation that it even exists, let alone that it hasn't been damaged. We know that both Cultivation and Honor have Splinters (spren, although Cultivation may not be Splintered all the way) so if there is a third Shard (which I personally doubt) it seems possible that it too is not completely whole.

Source for Cultivation is Splintered? Or that spren are Splinters of Cultivation?

Also, perhaps the reason Vin was able to move the planet as Preservation was because the planet was already part of Preservation and Ruin? It might be that random planets or planets belonging to other Shards aren't so easy to affect. And there's the whole thing with it being difficult to act in a manner cross-purposes to the Intent of the Shard. Vin didn't completely attune to Preservation, which probably made changing the planet's orbit easier than if she had attuned. Still, the Intent shouldn't be a problem except in a case where the Shard is acting against it. If Ruin had wanted to move the planet into the Sun, would it have been easier for him?

Also, they may be considered gods, and extremely broad in the scope of their powers, but they're still just fragments of the whole. What we perceive in the books as inactivity on their parts might not be inactivity at all. We have no PoV from them besides the bits at the end of HoA. We're told that Preservation and Ruin struggled against each other for quite some time. Alternate view: If you ever play a videogame in God Mode, you might find that too much hands on involvement gets boring, sometimes it really is better just to watch and see what happens.

[Kurkistan]

Source for Cultivation is Splintered? Or that spren are Splinters of Cultivation?

[snip]

All spren are either of Honor, of Cultivation, or a mix. It's a fair conclusion to call them Splinters.

Writing for Charity Interview

But the spren you are running into are all (something) ofeither Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them. And you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation. That should be able ot be (something).

Edit: In fact, I would hazard that the first "something" is probably "Splinters."

http://coppermind.17thshard.com/wiki/Splinter

Edited August 17, 2012 by Kurkistan

[Dros]

Also, perhaps the reason Vin was able to move the planet as Preservation was because the planet was already part of Preservation and Ruin? It might be that random planets or planets belonging to other Shards aren't so easy to affect.

Didn't TLR move his planet and screw it up?

Although the minds controlling the Shards have the power to do just about anything, it doesn't mean they know how to do it safely or correctly. Perhaps that holds them back as much as anything.

[Thought]

I'm not sure that you can count a third Shard on Roshar as an undamaged Shard, considering that we don't have confirmation that it even exists, let alone that it hasn't been damaged.

No indication it has been shattered, and as noted, the default assumption is that a shard hasn't been damaged. But you are quite right that we don't even know for sure if there is a third shard on Roshar (since Odium might be that third one). Hence my use of the word "knownish." Nine or ten, though, the majority of shards we're aware of haven't been damaged (as far as we've been given indication of).

Source for Cultivation is Splintered? Or that spren are Splinters of Cultivation?

Just to keep in mind, splinters can be created in a manner other than shattering. So, when someone says that spren are splinters of cultivation, they don't mean necessarily that Cultivation has shattered. Indeed, we know that the spren aren't the result of a shard shattering, since we see them or their effects in Dalinar's visions, which were (mostly) before Honor shattered.

[Windrunner]

Well all Shards started out whole, yes. But that doesn't mean it's more likely that they are currently this way. Of the Shards we know exist for sure, and have information on, only Ruin and Preservation for sure and maybe Odium, don't have Splinters. But Devotion, Dominion, Endowment, Honor, and Cultivation all do have Splinters. That's, at best, 5/8. So right now, it appears more likely that any Shards we discover will have Splinters as opposed to not having any.

Also, on Roshar, the two Shards we know are currently there for sure are both Splintered. So we know that there's been plenty of Splintering to be had. So it seems to me that it makes it even more of a possibility that in the unlikely event that there is a third (non-Odium) Shard on Roshar that it probably has Splinters as well. I see it (perhaps incorrectly) as it being like dropping a box with three plates inside of it. If you open it up and find that two of them are damaged, it shows that there's a decent chance that the third is somewhat broken as well.

[Kurkistan]

Well all Shards started out whole, yes. But that doesn't mean it's more likely that they are currently this way. Of the Shards we know exist for sure, and have information on, only Ruin and Preservation for sure and maybe Odium, don't have Splinters. But Devotion, Dominion, Endowment, Honor, and Cultivation all do have Splinters. That's, at best, 5/8. So right now, it appears more likely that any Shards we discover will have Splinters as opposed to not having any.

Also, on Roshar, the two Shards we know are currently there for sure are both Splintered. So we know that there's been plenty of Splintering to be had. So it seems to me that it makes it even more of a possibility that in the unlikely event that there is a third (non-Odium) Shard on Roshar that it probably has Splinters as well. I see it (perhaps incorrectly) as it being like dropping a box with three plates inside of it. If you open it up and find that two of them are damaged, it shows that there's a decent chance that the third is somewhat broken as well.

I think you may be misunderstanding what exactly the existence of Splinters implies. A whole Shard with a living Shardholder is capable of consciously splitting off a small part of its power. Endowment does this all the time with Returned, Ruin and Preservation put small amounts of their power in humanity, and Leras split a lot of his power into the mists.

A Shard can also be Splintered (verb) against its will, as with Aona and Skai, which also results in a large number of Splinters (noun) being created.

As far as we know, Cultivation consciously created spren and is still intact, although it's still up in the air as to whether or not spren have enough power to count as Splinters in their own right (see: humans on Scadrial for non-Splinters who hold part of a Shard's power). We know that Honor was Splintered (verb) at some point, but have no reason to believe that Cultivation is not, by the large, intact.

Edited August 18, 2012 by Kurkistan

[Windrunner]

I know perfectly well what a Splinter is and the difference between having Splinters and being Splintered. The point I'm making is that most Shards have Splinters, regardless of how it happened (whether they were Splintered by some other Shard or themselves), so at this time, based on the Shards we know about, it is more likely that other Shards we will meet will have Splinters.

What Leras and Ati didn't Splinter themselves to create humanity, it seems to have taken nowhere near as much power. We also don't know if Endowment intentionally Splinters itself or not. No other Shard, so far, has seemed to have to take direct action on themselves in order to make part of the magic system work. As for Cultivation, we don't have evidence either way, other then a vision which Honor "recorded" centuries if not millenia before. She could very well have died after that anyway. All of this is beside the point, anyway. I was talking about what fraction of Shards have Splinters, not whether or not they have a living holder or how the Splinters got there.

[Kurkistan]

I know perfectly well what a Splinter is and the difference between having Splinters and being Splintered. The point I'm making is that most Shards have Splinters, regardless of how it happened (whether they were Splintered by some other Shard or themselves), so at this time, based on the Shards we know about, it is more likely that other Shards we will meet will have Splinters.

What Leras and Ati didn't Splinter themselves to create humanity, it seems to have taken nowhere near as much power. We also don't know if Endowment intentionally Splinters itself or not. No other Shard, so far, has seemed to have to take direct action on themselves in order to make part of the magic system work. As for Cultivation, we don't have evidence either way, other then a vision which Honor "recorded" centuries if not millenia before. She could very well have died after that anyway. All of this is beside the point, anyway. I was talking about what fraction of Shards have Splinters, not whether or not they have a living holder or how the Splinters got there.

Forgive me if I continue to misunderstand, but you said "Also, on Roshar, the two Shards we know are currently there for sure are both Splintered." Perhaps this is simply a result of over-loading the word "Splinter," but that sentence implies that we know that Cultivation is Splintered, as in shattered (a better word, if I do say so. Thanks for the ambiguity, Hoid ) and no longer in any way a coherent whole.

[Windrunner]

Oooh I get it. Sorry the fault was probably mine for unclear communication. I need to be less lazy It's all good.

[Riddlesinthedark]

No indication it has been shattered, and as noted, the default assumption is that a shard hasn't been damaged. But you are quite right that we don't even know for sure if there is a third shard on Roshar (since Odium might be that third one). Hence my use of the word "knownish." Nine or ten, though, the majority of shards we're aware of haven't been damaged (as far as we've been given indication of).

Just to keep in mind, splinters can be created in a manner other than shattering. So, when someone says that spren are splinters of cultivation, they don't mean necessarily that Cultivation has shattered. Indeed, we know that the spren aren't the result of a shard shattering, since we see them or their effects in Dalinar's visions, which were (mostly) before Honor shattered.

Do we even know that, unless I missed a extraneous to WOK quote, or just that Honor is dead? (ie Preservation and Leras)

[Kurkistan]

Do we even know that, unless I missed a extraneous to WOK quote, or just that Honor is dead? (ie Preservation and Leras)

The Google+ Hangout.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=755#27

EDIT:

@Windrunner

No worries. I blame Hoid.

Edited August 18, 2012 by Kurkistan

[Riddlesinthedark]

The Google+ Hangout.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=755#27

EDIT:

@Windrunner

No worries. I blame Hoid.

Is that confirmation? Thought used "Shattered", and would Endowment qualified as "splintered", or is that the Aona/Skai state(where they cannot be picked up ala Vin)?

[Kurkistan]

Is that confirmation? Thought used "Shattered", and would Endowment qualified as "splintered", or is that the Aona/Skai state(where they cannot be picked up ala Vin)?

I think we've settled on "Shattered" as a less confusing alternative to saying that a Shard has been reduced entirely to Splinters, with no larger, consciousness-guided "main" part. So Endowment, while it has Splinters, still (presumably) has a single larger whole, so is not "Splintered" in the sense that Hoid (if it wasn't Hoid I'll eat my copy of the book) used in The Letter.

[Pechvarry]

So then, what would be a good summary of the states of Ruin and Preservation before the end of Well of Ascension? "Chunked?"

[Windrunner]

I don't think there's any need to start changing canonical terms around. Splinter is both a noun and a verb, plenty of other words are too, and we handle them just fine. I don't think there's really been any consensus on changing Splintered to Shattered anyway. Thought is the only person that I've seen thus far that has used Shattered in place of Splintered. Everywhere else I've seen it in reference to Adonalsium Shattering into Shards.

As for "Chunking" I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at there. A Shard without a mind? An inactive Shard? Preservation and Ruin just appeared alike for very different reasons, so I'm not sure that one term should be used to describe the state that they were in. I'm not even sure it's necessary at all to be honest.

I'm rather against making up non-canonical terms or altering canonical ones, unless it's something really necessary (like Shardholder). We already have an extremely steep learning curve for getting into the cosmere stuff. I don't think we should make it any more complex then necessary for new members. If we're making up new terms or changing the few terms that Brandon has actually given us, things can get confusing fast, not just for new members but for everyone who wasn't there when this new or altered term was decided upon. I'd say that we're all just better of sticking to the terms Brandon gave us and creating as few unofficial ones as possible.

[Riddlesinthedark]

I don't think there's any need to start changing canonical terms around. Splinter is both a noun and a verb, plenty of other words are too, and we handle them just fine. I don't think there's really been any consensus on changing Splintered to Shattered anyway. Thought is the only person that I've seen thus far that has used Shattered in place of Splintered. Everywhere else I've seen it in reference to Adonalsium Shattering into Shards.

As for "Chunking" I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at there. A Shard without a mind? An inactive Shard? Preservation and Ruin just appeared alike for very different reasons, so I'm not sure that one term should be used to describe the state that they were in. I'm not even sure it's necessary at all to be honest.

I'm rather against making up non-canonical terms or altering canonical ones, unless it's something really necessary (like Shardholder). We already have an extremely steep learning curve for getting into the cosmere stuff. I don't think we should make it any more complex then necessary for new members. If we're making up new terms or changing the few terms that Brandon has actually given us, things can get confusing fast, not just for new members but for everyone who wasn't there when this new or altered term was decided upon. I'd say that we're all just better of sticking to the terms Brandon gave us and creating as few unofficial ones as possible.

What are those terms then?

IIRC, he prefers the term Shard versus Shardholder, when referring to Leras/Ati/Harmony, but is Splintered an official term?

Edited August 19, 2012 by Voldy

[Kurkistan]

What are those terms then?

IIRC, he prefers the term Shard versus Shardholder, when referring to Leras/Ati/Harmony, but is Splintered an official term?

It's in the Epigraph letter from WoK, presumably written by Hoid.

http://stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/The_Way_of_Kings's_Epigraph_Letter

As for messing with canonical terms, Splinters/Splintered/Splintering is really quite confusing, as we saw just now, Windrunner. I don't imagine we'll be discussing both at the same time enough to really warrant a "fannon" term.

*Stolidly doesn't think of how deeply involved he was in the "Surging <Feruchemical quality>" debate*

If we did use them enough, though, I think we'd be fine going all "Shardholder" on the distinction.