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Do shards have independent awareness?


Aldragoran

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Okay so as I've mentioned in previous posts, I am relatively new here. I am currently reading WoK for the second time and have come across some interesting things. Apologies ahead of time if I am rehashing material already discussed on a separate thread, I was unable to find anything specific to what I am thinking.

So I understand that each shard has its own nature and traits attached to it which can alter the person who obtains the shard. ("Hoid'" reference to Ati being changed by Ruin) The thing I am curious about is whether shards have more than just the ability to influence the holder of the shard. I got intrigued about the possibility while reading certain sections of Kaladin and Syl's interactions.

I'm unsure if Spren being splinters of one of Roshar's shards is still a theory, or if it's been confirmed by Brandon, but assuming they are splinters, is Kaladin interacting with one of the shards (Honor?) intelligence directly? This could be completely out there and unfounded, but I was trying to figure out what Syl is, and the reason behind some of her traits.

In another thread someone mentioned something about how the Radiants may have lost their power when they acted dishonorably, specifically being dishonest. Syl always seems most fascinated and concerned with people being honest. I could be grasping at straws here, but this seems to be connected.

Thoughts?

Sort of along these same lines, Dalinar's first vision that we witness ends with "the voice" saying "Trust Sadeas. Be strong. Act with honor, and honor will aid you." So I guess this is another representation of this Shard having an intelligence of its own?

I guess I am also assuming that Honor is not currently being held by anyone? I can't remember if I read something about that on a forum or in the book. Anyone have a link to something on that?

Edited by Windrunner
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Shards have a sort of awareness, but it isn't much like that of a person. Shards are the expressions of a single idea, and they have a limited ability to direct their own powers to express that idea. For example, Preservation could still act to preserve things even though Leras was dead. It's actually very similar to the way Nightblood thinks.

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I don't think his visions are a record. Record implies that it is set in stone and Dalinar would be able to do nothing but witness. Not only did he alter what actually occurred through his own intervention and participation in the battle, but Honor's voice directly replied to his voiced question. "Trust Sadeas".

Granted, depending on the definition of the time continuum in these visions I suppose an argument could be made that these people in his visions were always possessed by Dalinar's consciousness at those moments in time and that Honor was actually conversing with Dalinar while creating this "record". I think that may be a little bit of a stretch though.

Edited by Aldragoran
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Shards do not have a mind of their own, only as Sazed says "a weak will". (Or something like that) They want to follow their intent and will actively seek out a person to hold their Shard and follow that intent. If you remember back to the end of TWoK Dalinar realizes that Honor was not answering his question about Sadeas, he just assumed that he was. Honor cannot hear him, and Tanavast is dead. Read Dalinar's last chapter and the vision where he fights the Midnight Essence (I'm pretty sure that's where he aska about Sadeas). Once you read it, knowing that Honor isn't answering his question, it all makes sense.

As for why they have no mind but Syl does, that goes into some Realmatics, at least in my theory. I'll explain it, but since you're relativesly new, like you said, I don't know if you know about Realmatics yet. If you do, great! If not there's a super awesome Shardcast here to help you. Remember that everything I say below could be completely and utterly wrong.

This whole theory hinges on how I view the Congnitive Realm. I think that it is a sort of overlap between the Physical and Spiritual Realms, the place where they interact. An object needs to have both Physical and Spiritual aspects for a Cognitive aspect to form, in my opinion. So a Shard, comprised mostly of spiritual energy, has very very little physical to it, at least in proportion to the massive amount of spiritual energy they contain. So not much of a Cognitive aspect ends up forming, nothing beyond that will to follow its intent. But, once it picks up someone to hold it, that person brings enough physical, as well as their own Cognitive, to sort of complete the entity that is the Shard, and allow its full power to be used.

Now Syl is much the same, almost a like mini Shard. (Or a Splinter to use the right term) She has some spiritual but almost no physical, allowing her to barely manifest and affect the physical world. But then the Nahel bond forms between her and Kaladin. She starts getting a boost from his physical aspect, allowing her mind to begin to work again. In return, he receives a little bit of her spiritual power/connection to Honor (I'm not yet sure which) which allows him to begin Surgebinding. This is all part of a theory I've yet to post in its entirety, but does this bit make sense?

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Honor's voice directly replied to his voiced question. "Trust Sadeas".

No, it didn't. Honor couldn't hear or respond to Dalinar's questions, It was just coincidence that he said "Yes, act with Honor" at that particular moment. This is important.

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It makes sense to me but Im already familiar with realmatics, how far away is he rest of the theory I'm intrigued.

Thanks dude! It's probably not far away, I've just been tied up in some other things. I could probably get it done in an afternoon if I had to.

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Sorry for the delayed reply Windrunner. It's been a busy few days :)

I do like the theory, it seems to make sense to me. I haven't heard the term "Nahel Bond" before but now that you mention it I can see some evidence of that throughout the different books. Now this could be a stretch, but it seems that the more someone acts in accordance with the primary traits of the shards of their world, the more they can benefit from their power maybe? This seems especially true of the Shards that have been shattered.

I will have to possibly at to this at a later time once I've read through a couple of the other books to look for evidence, but as I am rereading WoK right now that is the freshest in my mind. Going back to Dalinar's vision, "Act with honor and honor will aid you" (may not be exact wording). Again, this seems to support why Syl always reacts so negatively to Kal even bending the truth. She is most pleased whenever he is acting honorably. Also, Szeth never seems to lie and he is the only other surgebinder we know of. (I think?)

Also, is a Nahel bond what is created between Shard and Shardholder? Going by your theory of Syl gaining some physical aspect vicariously through Kal, could the same be said for Sazed and Ruin+Preservation? A sort of symbiotic bond in which both gain something?

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I think a Nahel Bond is a bond between a Nahel Spren (like Syl or the Truthspren) and a person. The Bond gives the Spren enough of a cognitive nature in order to think and grow, and the it gives the person more of the spiritual ability to utilize Stormlight. This bond is reinforced by following the Intent of the Spren. Check out my Spren Hypothesis in my Sig for more of what I think it is.

I do think that there is a sort of similar bond between a Shard and a Shardholder, but that it is much more intimate. For example Syl and Kaladin are two different beings, with two different thoughts, sets of memories, etc. When a person becomes a Shard, there's only one mind- and it is shaped by both entities. The Shard gives a general motivation, and the Shardholder helps shape it. But a Shard on its own isn't going to do anything except maybe find a new owner (like Vin).

Brandon has said that he hasn't canonized a term for a Shardholder because he doesn't make the distinction between a Shard and it's holder as much as we do.

So, yeah, I think that there are similarities between the Nahel Bond and the bond between a Shard and its Holder, (like the fact that the Shard enlarges the Holder's mind, and enables it to use power), but I think they are two different bonds.

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That's a good point Zach, they aren't exactly the same type of bond, just similar.

However, this does give me the seed of an idea, one that could possibly contradict that. No Radiants that Dalinar see ever seem to ever refer to their spren or even acknowledge that it's there. Kaladin does this quite often, having discussions with Syl, getting her opinion. Why would the Radiants seem to ignore their spren? What if, maybe, as a Radiant and spren spoke more Ideals and became more powerful, they slowly began to merge into one entity, like a Shard and its holder? This may be completely wrong, and is definitely unsubstantiated, but I do think it's interesting at least.

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I don't know. Factually, it makes sense, but storytelling wise, I think that would be sad, to lose Syl. Since Kaladin's personality is so powerful, I think it might overwhelm most of the aspects of Syl's personality if their minds did merge.

Plus, what would that do to Shallan? Although maybe we can say her Truthspren aren't fully developed (and maybe things are different for her).

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We also dont see Kaladin talking to Syl around random strangers, its been a while since I read WoK but if I remember correctly even most of the bridge crew dont learn about Syl its entirely possible that people just dont converse with their spren around strangers.

Edited by dj26792
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I don't know. Factually, it makes sense, but storytelling wise, I think that would be sad, to lose Syl. Since Kaladin's personality is so powerful, I think it might overwhelm most of the aspects of Syl's personality if their minds did merge.

Plus, what would that do to Shallan? Although maybe we can say her Truthspren aren't fully developed (and maybe things are different for her).

Well, they way I was thinking, it would just be like Syl now but without a physical presence, fully bonded to Kaladin. She would just talk from the inside of his mind. I'm not sure about Shallan, but we haven't seen much of her bond yet either.

We also dont see Kaladin talking to Syl around random strangers, its been a while since I read WoK but if I remember correctly even most of the bridge crew dont learn about Syl its entirely possible that people just dont converse with their spren around strangers.

For the beginning of TWoK, Bridge 4 doesn't know anything about Syl. Kaladin only talks with her in private. But after a while Rock explains to them what's happening, so they don't think their bridgeleader is totally insane. By the end the crew is comfortable with him doing this and he doesn't seem to take pains to hide their interaction.

It's also worth looking at the context of the time period Kaladin's in. The Radiants supposedly betrayed mankind, humanity thinks they were evil. So anything that smacks of their abilities or magic in general probably wouldn't be received very well. Just Dalinar's visions are suspect, can you imagine what people would do if Kaladin was discovered to be talking to a magic fairy woman? It wouldn't end well.

Then examine the time period of Dalinar's vision with the Radiants and the Midnight Essence. The people are practically praying for the Radiants to show up, it's clear they're the superheros of Roshar. So I doubt the people would question Radiants talking into thin air, probably assume they were communing with the Heralds or the Almighty. And in addition to that, those Radiants just discovered a major sign that a Desolation is approahing. I think that would be something I'd discuss with my partner, the source of my connection to Honor. Even if it's just a vague, "What do you think of this?" But I've never seen any sign of it. So the only conclusion I can draw is that either full Radiants can't communicate with their spren, or they can do it nonverbally. I personally think the former is more likely.

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We also dont see Kaladin talking to Syl around random strangers, its been a while since I read WoK but if I remember correctly even most of the bridge crew dont learn about Syl its entirely possible that people just dont converse with their spren around strangers.

Or if spren in a Nahel bond can even talk if its not a non-honor spren type.

Edited by Voldy
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Maybe they just get full telepathy at some point? Alternately, their Spren could have been scouting out the area, or just don't like getting attention called to them. Syl didn't like appearing to people other than Kaladin, although she was perfectly happy with Bridge Four knowing she existed.

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I like the idea that as the two beings grow closer their minds become more closely linked. Szeth seems to be at that point as well, or at least we never witness him conversing with an unseen being. It also seems that as the bond grows stronger, the persons ability to channel stormlight (channel? Perhaps the wrong verb) becomes likewise strengthened. Either that, or merely the experience in employing that force gives them more ability with it. It's very interesting to think about though.

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Fascinating speculation. Thank you!

A few minor points:

  • Dalinar eventually concludes that the vision figure was not responding to his questions. So when he previously thought that the vision figure was responding to his question about Sadeas, Dalinar made the mistake of trusting Sadeas. Interestingly, though, the vision figure actually said "Act with Honor and honor will aid you". So he acted with honor, trusting Sadeas, and was betrayed. But honor, in the form of Kaladin and bridge 4, aided him. Thus he was able to resolve his confusion, form a plan to move forward and join forces with Kaladin. Could the vision figure actually have been responding to the question somehow?
  • When Syl speaks to Kaladin, the other people around can't hear. So there is direct spren to mind communication. Kaladin's powers are spren abilities that Syl shares with him. Maybe he will develop the ability to communicate directly with Syl or maybe he already can, and he just hasn't figured out how to use the ability.
  • I believe Brandon reveals that the Radiants can communicate silently in the midnight essence vision. When Dalinar joins the Radiants in fighting the Midnight Essence, the text says, "The female Shardbearer turned to her companion, then the two of them fell into stances forming a triangle with Dalinar...". Why would he use the phrase "turned to her companion", if not to indicate silent communication?
  • Later in the same encounter, the female Radiant "looked to the side, expression growing distant. 'Harkaylain says the desolation is close, and he is not often wrong. He --'" This seems like Brandon revealing a non-verbal communication ability. So the Radiants could be communicating with spren. As he develops, Kaladin may be able to communicate privately with Syl.
  • I think we are seeing the same thing with Jasnah. When she soulcasts, she communicates with a spren to access Shadesmar, but she doesn't say anything out loud.
  • Likewise, in her second trip to Shadesmar, Shallan communicates with the truthspren telepathically as follows: "Creatures, she said in her head. Can you hear me? Yes, always, a whisper came in response."
  • Szeth can only hold stormlight for a tenth as long as Kaladin (let me know if you want quotes). So merging with the spren doesn't necessarily go with more advanced stormlight fusing abilities. I believe Brandon has said that something different is happening with Szeth. I don't believe that Szeth has a direct relationship with a spren (Nahel Bond). I think Szeth is accessing his windrunner abilities somehow like ardents can use soulcasters without talking to spren to go to Shadesmar. If an Honorspren had been associating with Szeth, I believe it would have broken the bond due to his actions. This still doesn't prove that Kaladin and Syl won't merge.
  • I endorse (and upvote) Windrunner's explanation of Syl's sentience as a splinter of a minimally sentient entity. Whether from his physicality or some other aspect of the bond, Syl is gaining Kaladin's cognitive abilities. It seems logical that as the bond grows stronger, she would only gain sentience (cognitive aspect) and not merge with Kaladin.

Edited by hoser
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Fascinating speculation. Thank you!

A few minor points:

  • Dalinar eventually concludes that the vision figure was not responding to his questions. So when he previously thought that the vision figure was responding to his question about Sadeas, Dalinar made the mistake of trusting Sadeas. Interestingly, though, the vision figure actually said "Act with Honor and honor will aid you". So he acted with honor, trusting Sadeas, and was betrayed. But honor, in the form of Kaladin and bridge 4, aided him. Thus he was able to resolve his confusion, form a plan to move forward and join forces with Kaladin. Could the vision figure actually have been responding to the question somehow?
  • When Syl speaks to Kaladin, the other people around can't hear. So there is direct spren to mind communication. Kaladin's powers are spren abilities that Syl shares with him. Maybe he will develop the ability to communicate directly with Syl or maybe he already can, and he just hasn't figured out how to use the ability.
  • I believe Brandon reveals that the Radiants can communicate silently in the midnight essence vision. When Dalinar joins the Radiants in fighting the Midnight Essence, the text says, "The female Shardbearer turned to her companion, then the two of them fell into stances forming a triangle with Dalinar...". Why would he use the phrase "turned to her companion", if not to indicate silent communication?
  • Later in the same encounter, the female Radiant "looked to the side, expression growing distant. 'Harkaylain says the desolation is close, and he is not often wrong. He --'" This seems like Brandon revealing a non-verbal communication ability. So the Radiants could be communicating with spren. As he develops, Kaladin may be able to communicate privately with Syl.
  • I think we are seeing the same thing with Jasnah. When she soulcasts, she communicates with a spren to access Shadesmar, but she doesn't say anything out loud.
  • Likewise, in her second trip to Shadesmar, Shallan communicates with the truthspren telepathically as follows: "Creatures, she said in her head. Can you hear me? Yes, always, a whisper came in response."
  • Szeth can only hold stormlight for a tenth as long as Kaladin (let me know if you want quotes). So merging with the spren doesn't necessarily go with more advanced stormlight fusing abilities. I believe Brandon has said that something different is happening with Szeth. I don't believe that Szeth has a direct relationship with a spren (Nahel Bond). I think Szeth is accessing his windrunner abilities somehow like ardents can use soulcasters without talking to spren to go to Shadesmar. If an Honorspren had been associating with Szeth, I believe it would have broken the bond due to his actions. This still doesn't prove that Kaladin and Syl won't merge.
  • I endorse (and upvote) Windrunner's explanation of Syl's sentience as a splinter of a minimally sentient entity. Whether from his physicality or some other aspect of the bond, Syl is gaining Kaladin's cognitive abilities. It seems logical that as the bond grows stronger, she would only gain sentience (cognitive aspect) and not merge with Kaladin.

You're a terrible person, in that I am now going to have to reread the book for a third time already. Especially concerning the KR flashback, since that seems to indicate that her spren IS talking to her.

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Shards do not have a mind of their own, only as Sazed says "a weak will". (Or something like that) They want to follow their intent and will actively seek out a person to hold their Shard and follow that intent. If you remember back to the end of TWoK Dalinar realizes that Honor was not answering his question about Sadeas, he just assumed that he was. Honor cannot hear him, and Tanavast is dead. Read Dalinar's last chapter and the vision where he fights the Midnight Essence (I'm pretty sure that's where he aska about Sadeas). Once you read it, knowing that Honor isn't answering his question, it all makes sense.

As for why they have no mind but Syl does, that goes into some Realmatics, at least in my theory. I'll explain it, but since you're relativesly new, like you said, I don't know if you know about Realmatics yet. If you do, great! If not there's a super awesome Shardcast here to help you. Remember that everything I say below could be completely and utterly wrong.

This whole theory hinges on how I view the Congnitive Realm. I think that it is a sort of overlap between the Physical and Spiritual Realms, the place where they interact. An object needs to have both Physical and Spiritual aspects for a Cognitive aspect to form, in my opinion. So a Shard, comprised mostly of spiritual energy, has very very little physical to it, at least in proportion to the massive amount of spiritual energy they contain. So not much of a Cognitive aspect ends up forming, nothing beyond that will to follow its intent. But, once it picks up someone to hold it, that person brings enough physical, as well as their own Cognitive, to sort of complete the entity that is the Shard, and allow its full power to be used.

Now Syl is much the same, almost a like mini Shard. (Or a Splinter to use the right term) She has some spiritual but almost no physical, allowing her to barely manifest and affect the physical world. But then the Nahel bond forms between her and Kaladin. She starts getting a boost from his physical aspect, allowing her mind to begin to work again. In return, he receives a little bit of her spiritual power/connection to Honor (I'm not yet sure which) which allows him to begin Surgebinding. This is all part of a theory I've yet to post in its entirety, but does this bit make sense?

I'm kind of curious how this theory explains the fact that, even though Shards may be mainly spiritual in nature, their impact on the world is largely physical. Mist, Snapping, the shape of Sel, the Tears of Edgli, the odd biosphere of Roshar... perhaps too much spiritual concentration actually warps the physical world, in not necessarily beneficial ways?

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