pits of hathsin + well of ascention = ?

[hoidhunter]

Just looking for some input on a very implausible theory...if harmony were to combine the pits of hathsin with the well of ascension...(theoretically) what would the product be like? The liquid in the well of ascension makes you nearly omnipotent for a brief time...atium makes you omniscient (sort of) for a period of time...would the combination of the two be some crazy powerful middle ground?...something totally different from either?...or would they balance out to something kind of lame?...also...how would the use of duralumin impact it's use?

[Voidus]

I imagine you'd get Sazedium and I'm of the opinion that it gives the power to become a Feruchemist.

[Ibunnuk]

so I've just been reading the transcription from SLCC and there is a mention of a new metal, Harmonium, which might also answer your question.

[gjustice99]

maybe Harmonium grows in the Pits of Elantia, beneath which is the shardpool for Harmony.

Edited December 21, 2014 by gjustice99

[Fallen Rope]

Maybe they would cancel out, hopefully there would be an explotion

[hoidhunter]

so I've just been reading the transcription from SLCC and there is a mention of a new metal, Harmonium, which might also answer your question.

I just read this myself...interesting. Voidus May very well be onto something as well...feruchemy is the magical art of balance (or harmony) after all.

[Voidus]

I just read this myself...interesting. Voidus May very well be onto something as well...feruchemy is the magical art of balance (or harmony) after all.

It's a pretty old theory, quite a few Sharders espouse it. With Feruchemy being the magic system that arose from both Shards it makes sense that Sazedium (Or Harmonium, although I don't like that name since it breaks the convention) would grant Feruchemy.

[hoidhunter]

It's a pretty old theory, quite a few Sharders espouse it. With Feruchemy being the magic system that arose from both Shards it makes sense that Sazedium (Or Harmonium, although I don't like that name since it breaks the convention) would grant Feruchemy.

True...although...while Atium is Ruin's (ati's) essence condensed in the Pits of Hathsin, it is used by allomancy to fuel an incredible power, but does not permanently grant any power on it's own ...Lerasium, preservation's (Lera's) essence, is not the fluid at the Well as Ascension, but rather the metal beads that were in pots there...these permanently grant someone allomancy...the fluid in the well of ascension seems to give you incredible power, but is burned up quickly...like atium. So why the discrepancy?

 

Are the beads of Lerasium just "dehydrated" well of ascension juice?  Is there some liquid form of Atium that could permanently grant you a new set of powers?   If you had a bead of Atium and Lerasium, could you make an alloy that would make you a feruchemist?  Does it have to do with the Pits being made by preservation to siphon off Ruin's power?  Does it have to do with the opposing nature of these two forces?

 

( by the way...I just had one of these questions (sort of) answered by moogle in a different thread.   I wonder why Brandon didn't do more with Ruin's shardpool?)

Edited December 24, 2014 by hoidhunter

[dvoraen]

Since Harmony is considered "one Shard" now (since WoB says Sazed would drop the Shard Harmony if he somehow died, or what have you), wouldn't this then suggest there is only one Shardpool now on Scadrial?

 

Ruin and Preservation were fully merged into Harmony.  I would think that their Shardpools would either expend themselves or be part of that reunification, though we probably won't get much about that until much later.

[hoidhunter]

Since Harmony is considered "one Shard" now (since WoB says Sazed would drop the Shard Harmony if he somehow died, or what have you), wouldn't this then suggest there is only one Shardpool now on Scadrial?

 

Ruin and Preservation were fully merged into Harmony.  I would think that their Shardpools would either expend themselves or be part of that reunification, though we probably won't get much about that until much later.

I understand this to be true.  My last post was trying to muddle out the differences between the different god metals before the two shards became one...in order to better understand what the produced god metal may be like after they are united.  I probably didn't make that very clear.  Sorry.

[natc]

(Only just finished AOL myself, so I guess I'm a newbie? I wanted to read it earlier but apparently Christmas = slow shipping.)

 

 

True...although...while Atium is Ruin's (ati's) essence condensed in the Pits of Hathsin, it is used by allomancy to fuel an incredible power, but does not permanently grant any power on it's own ...Lerasium, preservation's (Lera's) essence, is not the fluid at the Well as Ascension, but rather the metal beads that were in pots there...these permanently grant someone allomancy...the fluid in the well of ascension seems to give you incredible power, but is burned up quickly...like atium. So why the discrepancy?

 

Are the beads of Lerasium just "dehydrated" well of ascension juice?  Is there some liquid form of Atium that could permanently grant you a new set of powers?   If you had a bead of Atium and Lerasium, could you make an alloy that would make you a feruchemist?  Does it have to do with the Pits being made by preservation to siphon off Ruin's power?  Does it have to do with the opposing nature of these two forces?

 

( by the way...I just had one of these questions (sort of) answered by moogle in a different thread.   I wonder why Brandon didn't do more with Ruin's shardpool?)

 

Those are just their discrepancies as allomantic functions though, aren't they? And creating mistborn wasn't even the main function of lerasium burning, but just the side-effect, was it not? Quick skim of the Coppermind I just made suggests making an existing Mistborn burn it would do something completely different. It's basically the condensed metal form of Preservation-essence anyway, like the Well's liquid stuff and the Mists being more or less a gaseous variety, if I recall correctly. Both submerging yourself in the liquid pool at the Well as well as burning large quantities of (obviously less dense) mist managed to make Vin ascend, so maybe swallowing enough lerasium and flaring it would also cause ascension after a while? Before that occured the Mist did nothing beyond fueling all of Vin's powers at once, so perhaps that's also what lerasium's main function is? Unles for some bizarre reason a change in physical state would make it do something drastically different even though allomancy functions off of atomic structure before anything else.

 

It would make a bit of sense too, to be honest. Atium is essentially the all-purpose hemalurgic spike material on the flip-side of things, and the Mist made for all-purpose allomantic fuel in that one scene. Allomantic atium, on the other hand, is far from as impressive as lerasium, but in the end you are really using the "wrong" power source to fuel the system that Preservation created. And in true Ruin fashion, since Allomantic atium only shows the future up to a couple of seconds, it serves no practical purpose beyond reacting to an immediate threat i.e. combat and by extension killing people. While lerasium (and I guess the Mist if we're staying on that line of thought) in combat actually doesn't do anything remotely spectacular in the least that you can't do with anything else. Perhaps lerasium used as a spike would also have powerful but (relative to hAtium) rather "meh" and Preservation-y effects. We . . . don't know what a spike like that would do yet do we?

 

Speaking of, sticking to the line of thought of Mist and lerasium being a similar material like they are to the Well-fluid both god metals when used in their own shards' metallic art actually don't do anything that the normal 16 metals can't, but serve as stronger alternatives to all of them at once (queue Vin's "mist"push tearing off TLR's atium minds and flinging them out the window when steelpushes won't actually have any kind of effect whatsoever). I think they honestly mirror each other rather consistently.

 

Now I really wonder after all of that what lerasiumminds would store.

[WeiryWriter]

Since Harmony is considered "one Shard" now (since WoB says Sazed would drop the Shard Harmony if he somehow died, or what have you), wouldn't this then suggest there is only one Shardpool now on Scadrial?

 

Ruin and Preservation were fully merged into Harmony.  I would think that their Shardpools would either expend themselves or be part of that reunification, though we probably won't get much about that until much later.

 

Key word there "considered". While Harmony is often /considered/ to be a single Shard, and in some cases acts like one (as it would if Sazed were to die), in reality it is still two Shards that have intermingled "to an extent".  This is evidenced by the fact that Sazed still has to contend with two diametrically opposed Intents.

 

On lerasium and Ascension: Someone once asked Brandon what would happen if someone was to burn enough lerasium to become a savant, to which Brandon replied "that's pretty much what Ascension is"

[hoidhunter]

Every post in my thread gets an up vote!!!

 

MERRY XMAS 17TH SHARD!!!

 

FROM: hoidhunter

[dvoraen]

Key word there "considered". While Harmony is often /considered/ to be a single Shard, and in some cases acts like one (as it would if Sazed were to die), in reality it is still two Shards that have intermingled "to an extent".  This is evidenced by the fact that Sazed still has to contend with two diametrically opposed Intents.

 

On lerasium and Ascension: Someone once asked Brandon what would happen if someone was to burn enough lerasium to become a savant, to which Brandon replied "that's pretty much what Ascension is"

Sure, Harmony is "considered" one Shard, but if Brandon himself says it IS one Shard now, a literal reunification of Ruin and Preservation, that doesn't really mean Sazed has two competing Intents so much as the fact that the combined power literally creates passivity on his part over time, that instead he has the 'Intent' of Harmony (which is not to do anything directly to disrupt the balance so much as maintain it*).  Thus, the need for agents like Marsh, the kandra, and so on.

 

I feel bad for anyone that tries to take on Sazed, though, because he'd probably Splinter someone a new Shard, ifyaknowwhatImean.

 

* This can swing both ways, even if destroying competing influence is the means of maintaining the desired status quo.  I do think that Sazed is "technically" being affected by Ruin and Preservation, but it's more the fact that he has no Intent to act unless it's needed.

Edited December 25, 2014 by dvoraen

[WeiryWriter]

Sure, Harmony is "considered" one Shard, but if Brandon himself says it IS one Shard now, a literal reunification of Ruin and Preservation, that doesn't really mean Sazed has two competing Intents so much as the fact that the combined power literally creates passivity on his part over time, that instead he has the 'Intent' of Harmony (which is not to do anything directly to disrupt the balance so much as maintain it*).  Thus, the need for agents like Marsh, the kandra, and so on.

 

I feel bad for anyone that tries to take on Sazed, though, because he'd probably Splinter someone a new Shard, ifyaknowwhatImean.

 

* This can swing both ways, even if destroying competing influence is the means of maintaining the desired status quo.  I do think that Sazed is "technically" being affected by Ruin and Preservation, but it's more the fact that he has no Intent to act unless it's needed.

 

emphais mine:

 

Question

Were Ruin and Preservation two shards or one?

Brandon Sanderson

They were two shards. Harmony is considered a shard, although it’s really two, in the same way that a king of two countries would still be considered a king.

 

(source)

 

ericth

Could Sazed take down Rayse since he has two shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Rayse is VERY scared of Sazed. However, given Sazed is a composite of two diametrically opposed shards, he finds it very difficult to act.

 

(source)

 

Question

 

The epigraphs for The Way of Kings, that were talking about how the various Shardholders are influenced by their shards over time--how does that impact someone like Harmony, with multiple shards?

Brandon Sanderson

 

The main effect it's having on Harmony right now is his inability to act sometimes, because his two sides are pushing, and so he is having trouble being proactive. It'd take a long time before it really becomes manifest, but he's had several hundred years, so it's starting to have an effect.

 

(source)

[gjustice99]

True...although...while Atium is Ruin's (ati's) essence condensed in the Pits of Hathsin, it is used by allomancy to fuel an incredible power, but does not permanently grant any power on it's own ...Lerasium, preservation's (Lera's) essence, is not the fluid at the Well as Ascension, but rather the metal beads that were in pots there...these permanently grant someone allomancy...the fluid in the well of ascension seems to give you incredible power, but is burned up quickly...like atium. So why the discrepancy?

 

Are the beads of Lerasium just "dehydrated" well of ascension juice?  Is there some liquid form of Atium that could permanently grant you a new set of powers?   If you had a bead of Atium and Lerasium, could you make an alloy that would make you a feruchemist?  Does it have to do with the Pits being made by preservation to siphon off Ruin's power?  Does it have to do with the opposing nature of these two forces?

 

( by the way...I just had one of these questions (sort of) answered by moogle in a different thread.   I wonder why Brandon didn't do more with Ruin's shardpool?)

I think that "liquid atium" would be in Ati's shardpool which was the black lake in the mountains described by Alendi in the logbook. Though this would be before Sazed's ascension. 

Edited December 25, 2014 by gjustice99

[hoidhunter]

I'm going on supposition here but follow me.  Ruin and Preservation are opposites (obviously).  The metal form of preservation grants you allomancy permanently and it's liquid form gives you incredible power that burns up quickly (and you don't have to be an allomancer to use it...ie Rashek).  Ruin's metal form gives you power that burns up quickly (if you are already an allomancer)...does it stand to reason that being exposed to it's liquid form would grant you some power permanently? 

 

Also...I read in a few places on the forum that Alendi had a spike in him.  The only thing that I have been able to find that suggests this is the log book entry below...but it doesn't seem definitive.  Is there a WoB on this or something?

  

I think I’ve finally discovered why Rashek resents me so very much. He does not believe that an outsider such as myself - a foreigner - could possibly be the Hero of Ages. He believes that I have somehow tricked the philosophers, that I wear the piercings of the Hero unjustly.  

 

Also...if we are operating on the assumption that Alendi was, in fact, spiked...do you think that Ruin made him stop Fedik from touching Ruin's shardpool? (see logbook entry below)

 

The lake that Fedik discovered is below us now - I can see it from the ledge. It looks even more eerie from up here, with its glassy - almost metallic - sheen. I almost wish I had let him take a sample of its waters.

[Nahlion Dahlyr]

I'm going on supposition here but follow me.  Ruin and Preservation are opposites (obviously).  The metal form of preservation grants you allomancy permanently and it's liquid form gives you incredible power that burns up quickly (and you don't have to be an allomancer to use it...ie Rashek).  Ruin's metal form gives you power that burns up quickly (if you are already an allomancer)...does it stand to reason that being exposed to it's liquid form would grant you some power permanently? 

 

Also...I read in a few places on the forum that Alendi had a spike in him.  The only thing that I have been able to find that suggests this is the log book entry below...but it doesn't seem definitive.  Is there a WoB on this or something?

  

I think I’ve finally discovered why Rashek resents me so very much. He does not believe that an outsider such as myself - a foreigner - could possibly be the Hero of Ages. He believes that I have somehow tricked the philosophers, that I wear the piercings of the Hero unjustly.  

 

Also...if we are operating on the assumption that Alendi was, in fact, spiked...do you think that Ruin made him stop Fedik from touching Ruin's shardpool? (see logbook entry below)

 

The lake that Fedik discovered is below us now - I can see it from the ledge. It looks even more eerie from up here, with its glassy - almost metallic - sheen. I almost wish I had let him take a sample of its waters.

Well, I think it might be tricky, but not impossible that those piercings were hemalurgic (I think they are though) as Ruin was mostly trapped, but then again mentally unstable people are relatively easy for him to affect (this just makes me curious as to how they became hemalurgic, if they are). Regardless, if I were Ruin waiting for Alendi to release the power, I would want to be at full strength for when Alendi released Preservations power to destroy the world. So yes, I think Ruin made Alendi stop Fedrik from touching Ruins shardpool.

[luckat]

Also...I read in a few places on the forum that Alendi had a spike in him.  The only thing that I have been able to find that suggests this is the log book entry below...but it doesn't seem definitive.  Is there a WoB on this or something?

 

Here's the WoB on this:

 

VEGASDEV (16 OCTOBER 2008)

Alendi's "Piercings of the Hero"?

BRANDON SANDERSON (17 OCTOBER 2008)

This is part of the manipulation Ruin did during the classical era on Scadrial, before the coming of the Lord Ruler. Piercings, and Hemalurgy, were part of the world before the coming of Allomancy in its modern form. Then, they were seen as a means of communicating with deity—which, indeed, they were. Ruin manipulated this to make sure any Hero of Ages who came would be under his influence. The reference is included mostly to indicate that yes, Alendi was under Ruin's influence. He ignored Rashek, though. (At least, right up to the moment when everything went 'wrong' for Ruin, when Rashek killed his chosen Hero of Ages.)

(source)

[hoidhunter]

Thanks for the WoB luckat...(up vote)...

 

I find it interesting that Brandon says "Piercings and Hemalurgy were part of the world befote the coming of Allomancy in its modern form."  I had already made the assumption that Alendi having a Hemalurgic spike meant that allomancy was present in the world before Rashek's ascension.  (before he gave the beads of lerasium to his supporters.) I wonder how it was different back then.  Is there somewhere in the world that was producing lerasium beads the way the pits of hathsin produced atium?  

[dvoraen]

emphais mine:

 

 

(source)

 

 

(source)

 

 

(source)

 

There's also this.

(source)

 

 

 

MASON WHEELER

And shard holders tend to take the name of the shard they hold. So you've got Sazed, who goes by "Harmony" now, after taking up Ruin and Preservation. That makes me wonder, does he hold two shards... or one?

BRANDON SANDERSON

You could really answer that either way. The distinction is a really subjective one, and you could say that he's holding both shards, or that he holds one single Harmony.

 

It sounds like we're both right.

[WeiryWriter]

Thanks for the WoB luckat...(up vote)...

 

I find it interesting that Brandon says "Piercings and Hemalurgy were part of the world befote the coming of Allomancy in its modern form."  I had already made the assumption that Alendi having a Hemalurgic spike meant that allomancy was present in the world before Rashek's ascension.  (before he gave the beads of lerasium to his supporters.) I wonder how it was different back then.  Is there somewhere in the world that was producing lerasium beads the way the pits of hathsin produced atium?  

 

Allomancy was /very/ weak back then and exceedingly rare, and there were no Mistborn, just Mistings.  Alendi was Snapped by the mists.  There was no lerasium equivalent of the Pits (it would have been a stupid move on Preservation's part of there was).

 

 

It sounds like we're both right.

 

Yes Harmony does exhibit some dual properties (like how light is a wave and a particle).  However the point I was trying to make was that Harmony isn't definitely "one Shard", which is what your post was saying.  There are circumstances where it is useful to think of Harmony as one Shard (like what would happen if Sazed were to die?) and there are others where it is necessary to think of Harmony as two (what kind of Intents does Sazed have to deal with?). 

 

Sorry if I'm coming across as rather harsh, this is just a huge pet peeve of mine.

[hoidhunter]

So where did the beads of lerasium come from?  I realize that preservation wouldn't have siphoned off his own power systematically the way he did with Ruin...but these little bits of pure preservation essence have to have come from somewhere.  Who put them in little clay pots at the well of ascension?  Were there allomancers who were just born that way going back to the beginning of mankind on Scadrial...or were they the product of lerasium created allomancers having a long long time to dillute their genes? 

[dvoraen]

I always got the impression that Rashek got a hint about Allomancy when he held the Well's power, and as part of what he did he created those beads.

[hoidhunter]

I always got the impression that Rashek got a hint about Allomancy when he held the Well's power, and as part of what he did he created those beads.

Part of my last post was "where did allomancers come from before Rashek's ascension?" 

 

...and I'm not sure if you are right or not there dvoraen...It's a possibility I guess...I just haven't heard the idea posed anywhere else...and I didn't get that impression from the story...and even if Rashek did make the beads of lerasium while "ascended"...why the little pots if he was just going to smash them open right away?